Inefficiencies in the public and private sector

luckat · 19-10-2008 12:13PM #1

People give out yards here about inefficient, overpaid public servants.

I don't agree at all, most of the time, though there is the occasional spectacular waste of time and money. But often this criticism is totally misdirected - for instance, all those spat-upon 'administrators' are often the kindest and most efficient people in hospitals.

But here's your chance. Name your most hated inefficiency - in either the public sector or the private sector - and say why it's inefficient, and how it could be done better.

SimpleSam06 · 19-10-2008 12:18PM

Lets start with the whole damn thing and take it from there.

Irish Public Service 2001-2006: Salaries up 59%; Payroll up 18% - 38,000 workers and Pensions up 81.3%
By Finfacts Team
Jun 29, 2006, 08:27

Irish public service salaries have risen by 59% in the past five years and the payroll has expanded by 38,000 extra staff. The increase in the average industrial wage for a male worker in the period 2001-2005, was 19%.

The Exchequer’s annual wages and pensions bill increased sharply from €10.2 billion in 2001 to €16.2bn last year, with what has been termed "benchmarking" accounting for up to €1.32bn of the rise.

The number of public servants grew by 38,760, or 18%, since 2001 to 257,013 last January.

The education sector saw the biggest increase with pay costs rising by 65%. Health sector pay surged by 63% in the period, civil service salaries rose 48% and in the security sector they rose by 34.8%. The average weekly earnings for non-health service public sector workers stood at €848 last September, according to the CSO.

This was above the €754 for the banking and insurance sector and €579 for industrial workers.

Public sector pay rose by 8% in 2005 and pensions now account for 10% of the total pay bill, up from 8.6% in 2001. The pensions bill has increased from €876m in 2001 to €1,588m in 2006 representing an 81.3% increase over the period. The increase in the health sector has been 104%. Pensioners also received the special benchmarking increase of an average of 9%.

The core finding was that on average, public servants earned 13 per cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like-for-like basis in 2001. The researchers also discovered that the size of this margin (the public sector premium) in 2001 was not significantly different from what it had been in 1994, suggesting that pay increases in the public sector had kept pace with the private sector throughout the Celtic Tiger period.

Another discovery was that the margin by which public service workers outearned their private sector counterparts tended to be significantly larger at the bottom of the income distribution than at the top.

A particularly striking finding was that the estimate of the public sector premium for Ireland was more than twice as large as the available estimates for other countries.

Last November, Davy Stockbrokers said that Irish public sector pay is on average around 120 percent of private sector earnings, having risen from 113 percent in the past five years, according to Davy Stockbrokers.

In a weekly market comment, Davy said that figures from the CSO (Central Statistics Office) indicated that average earnings in the public sector are now more than €43,000 a year. This compares with €33,500 in the private sector (industrial, construction, distribution and other sectors).

"Moreover, these crude comparisons take no account of the superior pension entitlements available to the public sector," Chief Economist Robbie Kelleher said.

Kiera · 19-10-2008 12:19PM

Waaaay too deep for a Sunday morning!

luckat · 19-10-2008 12:35PM

Hmm, I'm not talking about what people earn, but about what they do, and how efficient it is. For instance, there used to be a section in at least one department which cut articles out of newspapers. Later, that work was devolved to a private company that did it for a dozen different departments. The old system was totally mad - two clerical workers whose main work was to cut up newspapers.

Carrigart Exile · 19-10-2008 12:42PM

Salaries up 59%; Payroll up 18% wonder how those two stats tie in??

I find private sector telecoms companies are the most inefficient organisations I have ever had the misfortune to deal with.

nhughes100 · 19-10-2008 12:55PM

Where to start, I don't know anyone that has a good word to say about NTL, any of the big pc manufacturers, agreed with any telecom company including the mobile operators. I deal with the private sector every day of the week and constantly wonder how a lot these people stay in business.

I once changed money in a bank from euro to dollars, I'd about 150 left over so went back to change it in the same branch but was told they wouldn't change the money as one was a 100$ bill even though they gave me the same 100$ bill two weeks previous and I've had an account with them for ove ten years!

It's easy to tar the entire public sector with the same brush and I agree there is problems in the public sector but it's not the be all and end all of our problems. Michael O'Leary seems to think we can run the country like running a low cost airline, fortunately life isn't like that.

irish_bob · 19-10-2008 01:08PM

im not a farmer but grew up on one and my brother is one , let me give you an example of what passes for a days work in one of the local dept of agriculture offices

officially the day begins at 9.30 am but you still have the recorded message that the joint is shut playing untill around 9.45 am so dont bother trying to ring someone untill near 10 am , tea break is from 11 am untill 11.15 am but dont bother ringing between 10.45 am and 11.30 am as molly or mary or maurice is still at the biscuits , btw , if you have managed to get speaking to molly or mary ( one of them will either be not in that day , only just started that day so not used to the place or one of them is in another privincial town that day ) , you will be told the computer is down so they cant get into your file

lunch time is officially 12.30 pm to 2pm yet everyone is gone for the spud by 12.25 and dont expect the phone to be answered or the door to be open untill around 2.15 pm that afternoon , the day officially ends at 4.30 pm but they stop answering the phones at 4.20 pm

btw , i forgot to mention if you ask to have a document you handed in to be stamped and signed , you very often get a reply like this , you mean i have to go upstairs now to do that for you and i dont mean a look that says that , i mean litterally that is the kind of reply you recieve

that is the local dept of ag , the county council office is a million times worse , i wrote a letter to the county manager 4 yrs ago about a problems with a public highway and as yet have not recived a reply
in 2003 the local engineer in my town took 3 months to return my call and this was only after i got a local td to lobby for a return call

BostonB · 19-10-2008 01:09PM

If someone starts with sweeping generalisations of the public sector its usually a rant, and you're not going to get much of a logical debate. Theres great inefficiency in both sectors. I haven't seen a huge difference between sectors and I've worked in both. Its largely dependent on the quality of the people involved, but especially the quality of the managers. In the public sector you have more complication from unions, and they tend to slow things down and often add inefficiency. They exist in the private sector too. But then you have nepotism and tin pot dictators in both sectors too. Public sector has constant political interference too.

SimpleSam06 · 19-10-2008 01:13PM

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

Salaries up 59%; Payroll up 18% wonder how those two stats tie in??

Payroll is the number of people employed, salary is how much you pay them.

nhughes100 wrote: »

I once changed money in a bank from euro to dollars, I'd about 150 left over so went back to change it in the same branch but was told they wouldn't change the money as one was a 100$ bill even though they gave me the same 100$ bill two weeks previous and I've had an account with them for ove ten years!

They do that because of the amount and quality of forged $100 bills in circulation.

nhughes100 wrote: »

Michael O'Leary seems to think we can run the country like running a low cost airline, fortunately life isn't like that.

While its true that you can't run a country like a business, you can certainly do a hell of a lot better job than the clowns currently at the wheel. I mean for all the money blown (and thats the cash from the boom by the way) where are our great roads? Where is the improved medical care? Where is there any improvement in service at all? And as if that wasn't bad enough, we need to keep paying them now the boom is over, since they can't be fired for fear they might bring the country to its knees.

Its a bad joke.

SimpleSam06 · 19-10-2008 01:16PM

BostonB wrote: »

Theres great inefficiency in both sectors.

The difference is that inefficient private sector companies go out of business or otherwise get eaten, and this happens all the time. The only people I've ever heard denying that are public sector workers, who never worked a day for a private company in their lives. Inefficiency in the public sector just means the balance comes out of yours and my pockets, they can't go bust.

SoWatchaWant · 19-10-2008 01:19PM

Example: I had a job during the summer two years ago in a well-known Northside Dublin psychiatric hospital run by the HSE. I was a porter, meaning I basically did the work that nurses and doctors in clinics were too lazy to do themselves, filing etc.

They paid me 12.50 an hour (absurdly high for back then) and the work was so laidback, my superiors would honestly say nothin if I did no work at all.

But that's probably the worst.

So that's where our money goes. Still kinda feel bad about it.

thelordofcheese · 19-10-2008 01:19PM

irish_bob wrote: »

im not a farmer but grew up on one and my brother is one , let me give you an example of what passes for a days work in one of the local dept of agriculture offices

officially the day begins at 9.30 am but you still have the recorded message that the joint is shut playing untill around 9.45 am so dont bother trying to ring someone untill near 10 am , tea break is from 11 am untill 11.15 am but dont bother ringing between 10.45 am and 11.30 am as molly or mary or maurice is still at the biscuits , btw , if you have managed to get speaking to molly or mary ( one of them will either be not in that day , only just started that day so not used to the place or one of them is in another privincial town that day ) , you will be told the computer is down so they cant get into your file

lunch time is officially 12.30 pm to 2pm yet everyone is gone for the spud by 12.25 and dont expect the phone to be answered or the door to be open untill around 2.15 pm that afternoon , the day officially ends at 4.30 pm but they stop answering the phones at 4.20 pm

btw , i forgot to mention if you ask to have a document you handed in to be stamped and signed , you very often get a reply like this , you mean i have to go upstairs now to do that for you and i dont mean a look that says that , i mean litterally that is the kind of reply you recieve

S'funny, I know someone who works for the Dept of agriculture back home. He leaves the house at 7 is back about 5 or so and has yet more paperwork to do, keeping him busy until about 9. But you're right, he's rare that he's in the office, but because *shock and fucking horror here* farms tend to be out in the asshole of nowhere and they have to go to the farms.
Amazing isn't it.

But no, you're right, they're all lazy and useless.

Also: Their IT system *is* an utter shambles, having had to deal with it before, i'm not surprised things are on the blink half the time. Hardly the fault of the people that man the office.

dotsman · 19-10-2008 01:28PM

There are, of course, inefficiencies in the private sector. The difference is that, usually, the customer can go somewhere else if they are not satisfied, and more importantly, if a private sector company wastes money, it wastes it's owner's money. In the public sector, it's the taxpayer's money that is wasted.

I don't believe in giving out about the whole public sector, and certainly not the majority of individual workers. What the problem basically comes down to is the processes and standards that are used. There is such a high proportion of bull**** admin and inefficient practices. There is also a huge reluctance to change, and change is also very badly managed. This is very notable in the large projects such as IT systems (HSE payroll, e-voting, Pulse etc), and decentralization etc. Change cannot seem to be implement, unless everyone gets slice. Hence, usually unions start making their (often huge) demands any time a change is being implemented. In the private sector there is frequent change. If you don't like it, tough toilet!

The unions need to be told to **** off. This is not the start of the last century. What we've had over the past few decades is that the unions are trying to validate their existance and earn the ridulous subs they charge their members/minions. Thus the threats of strikes every few years if ridiculous pay demands are not met. The unions can come back if employees are ever treated like slaves etc. Unitl then, they are pretty redundant.

luckat · 19-10-2008 02:00PM

Hm. As I suspected, a lot of opinions and generalisations, but so far no examples of actual specific inefficiencies.

asdasd · 19-10-2008 02:06PM

Hm. As I suspected, a lot of opinions and generalisations, but so far no examples of actual specific inefficiencies.

Ok heres one. The HSE budget increases by 300% in less than a decade. The service provided by the HSE is the same.

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 19-10-2008 02:14PM

luckat wrote: »

Hm. As I suspected, a lot of opinions and generalisations, but so far no examples of actual specific inefficiencies.

In my contact with the piblic sector, I encountered an employee who was kept on basically pushing paper around a desk after he fraudulently acquired a position in which he was not qualified.

I also encountered teams of people who's work could adequately have been done by one person.

asdasd · 19-10-2008 02:15PM

And in general terms across the board:

1) Nobody can be sacked. Clearly then here is no penalty for inefficacy.
2) The vacation time is way too large. 35 days a year is 7 weeks.
3) 35 hours a week is a joke.
4) Working more than 35 hours a week gives time in lieu. so by working a normal private sector hours you can get a day off every 2 weeks. In addition to the 35 days. It can add up to 50 days in theory and about 45+ in practice ( taking holiday removes your option for time in lieu). Thats 9-10 weeks. Clearly no department is ever fully staffed.
5) The budget system is a joke. If the buget isnt spent it is handed back to finance and the dept. has "proven" it can operate on a lower budget next year. Thus the incentive is to spend.
6) Beuracracies are never entrepenurial ( with one exception - broadcasting - but broadcasters and producers are subject to market and critical feedback from outside the enterprise. Nobody can deny that the BBC does a good job for instance).

thelordofcheese · 19-10-2008 02:16PM

asdasd wrote: »

Ok heres one. The HSE budget increases by 300% in less than a decade. The service provided by the HSE is the same.

Well i should hope so, i'd hate for them to suddenly branch out into being an IT company or something.

But seriously, that only holds true is you can quantify the second half. And to do that you'd have to find some way to measure the QoS or something like that.

asdasd wrote: »

6) Beuracracies are never entrepenurial ( with one exception - broadcasting - but broadcasters and producers are subject to market and critical feedback from outside the enterprise. Nobody can deny that the BBC does a good job for instance).

I dunno, have you seen torchwood?

Tails142 · 19-10-2008 02:18PM

In the office I work in there is a reception that nobody walks through, everybody enters through a side door as its closer to where the desks are. If somebody was coming in for a meeting, say once or twice a week they would enter through the reception and sign the visitor book. In this reception there is a huge plasma TV that plays a promotional video, this plasma tv runs all day and presumably turns off in the evening through an automatic timer.

In the other regional offices there is a similar set up however in some offices there are several even larger plasma screens, all playing this promotional video.

If you walk into any government offices you will see something similiar. Its pretty wasteful in my opinion, both in terms of wasted energy and the waste of buying all these TV's when the offices were fitted out.

asdasd · 19-10-2008 02:20PM

Of course the [quality of] service provided by the HSE is fully quantifiable. Number of beds. Time at A&E. Waiting list numbers. Survival percentages after operations. Number of people not getting sicker in hospitals. And so on.

luckat · 19-10-2008 02:28PM

asdasd wrote: »

Ok heres one. The HSE budget increases by 300% in less than a decade. The service provided by the HSE is the same.

In what sense is the service the same? Have no machines been bought? Are the same number of patients treated? Are the treatments given to these patients the same? Are the drugs the same, and do they cost the same? I think not.

But no, still too general. What I'm talking about is a way in which a company or civil service section fails to use efficient methods of doing something.

asdasd · 19-10-2008 02:39PM

But no, still too general. What I'm talking about is a way in which a company or civil service section fails to use efficient methods of doing something.

Obviously the only people who know exactly how the civil service works would be inside. In any case my first post on this - hours worked, holiday entitlements, and the way budgets are spent was a clear example of inefficiency. You are clearly not going to accept any answers at all.

This however reveals the attitude

In what sense is the service the same? Have no machines been bought? Are the same number of patients treated? Are the treatments given to these patients the same? Are the drugs the same, and do they cost the same? I think not.

An IT worker could argue that his machines are different, the programing language is not the same, the clients different etc. What measures success is output. Not excuses. The point of buying a machine in the health service was not to buy the machine but to increase efficiency or decrease mortality, or produce better diagnostic results.

these can be measured using the criteria I mentioned.

mikedragon32 · 19-10-2008 02:56PM

asdasd wrote: »

And in general terms across the board:

1) Nobody can be sacked. Clearly then here is no penalty for inefficacy.

False. Civil servants can be sacked, it doesn't happen often, granted, but that's mainly because the union will tie a department up in knots and failing that, there's litigation. There are other routes for penalising poor performance. Increments (pay rises) can be withheld and managers can recommend that staff are not suitable for promotion. This stays on their record and can be a disaster for someone who had hoped to make a career out of slouching.

asdasd wrote: »

2) The vacation time is way too large. 35 days a year is 7 weeks.

The vast majority of civil servants get between 20 and 25 days annual leave. I don't know of any that get 35 days, with the exception of teachers.

asdasd wrote: »

3) 35 hours a week is a joke.

Civil servants are supposed to do 37.5 hours a week, which is in line with the industrial average.

asdasd wrote: »

4) Working more than 35 hours a week gives time in lieu. so by working a normal private sector hours you can get a day off every 2 weeks. In addition to the 35 days. It can add up to 50 days in theory and about 45+ in practice ( taking holiday removes your option for time in lieu). Thats 9-10 weeks. Clearly no department is ever fully staffed.

I refer to points above. What you seem to be referring to is flexi-time, which is available in many areas of the private sector also. In the civil service you can work up 1.5 days in a four week period. 13 flexi periods in a year equates to 19.5 days, but the time you work up must be taken in the following period, so it's not like you can build up time for a monster holiday.

asdasd wrote: »

5) The budget system is a joke. If the buget isnt spent it is handed back to finance and the dept. has "proven" it can operate on a lower budget next year. Thus the incentive is to spend.

This I agree with. I have witnessed what can only be described as panic as department heads rush out to buy anything within purchasing/acquisition constraints in order to hit the budget. Insane.

asdasd wrote: »

6) Beuracracies are never entrepenurial ( with one exception - broadcasting - but broadcasters and producers are subject to market and critical feedback from outside the enterprise. Nobody can deny that the BBC does a good job for instance).

I wouldn't call RTE entreprenurial.

I can't deny that there are great inefficiencies in the civil service, but the vast majority of civil servants are conscientious and hard working. I think in areas where there are inefficiencies, the attitude tends to trickle down from management. Perhaps there's no coincidence that the departments that deal with the public are the ones that offices like mine are the most frustrated with. Believe me, they don't just treat the public like an inconvenience. There are times when I would love to reach down the phone and shake the muppet at the end of the phone by the throat, but I find that I could be dealing with someone at a very high level from that office and they're exactly the same...

The proposed reductions in staffing won't make for a leaner meaner civil service. Many areas will just use it as an excuse for further inefficiency. The stock excuse for delays will become "insufficient staffing".

PaddyofNine · 19-10-2008 03:13PM

The thing that twists my **** is the constant breaks everybody has to go on. I can't, I'm on my break is the usual refrain. In the private sector, or in certain aspects of the public sector, if it's busy enough you just stay and do the work. It shows you give a **** about your job. But if there's no negative consequences of being a lazy ****, why bother your hole? And this attitude gets to even the most eager after a while. Case in point, there's this lad at work who does the same job as me - a basic entry-level position for which we are surprisingly well paid. He is shee-it - without doubt the most infuriatingly lazy clown to ever receive a paycheck. He disappears constantly but he knows each and every one of his rights - when questioned where he was, the usual reply is "It's a personal matter". What can you say to that? On the odd occassion over the years when some boss has actually been pissed off enough to haul him into the office, he demands a union rep present. Fair enough the union rep is embarrassed to be even sitting beside this pathetic excuse for an employee, but this is one of the fundamental problems with the public sector. It is extremely, excrutiatingly difficult to fire somebody. They would have to set a customer on fire or something, and even then they'd be sent on some bull**** course on pyro-relations or something first. And people say there's negative incentives to this kind of behaviour - there's not, not if you don't give a **** about being promoted and are happy to sit on yer hole in your pensionable job for the next 40 years. And that's the problem - far too many people are. There is so much fat that could be trimmed from every department in the country, it's not even funny.

Another example, I went to the tax office in Nutgrove the other morning to get tax. Queued from nine for the office to open at half past (as if it'd kill them to open from 8.30 and accommodate people who have to go to work. The office hours are 9.30-3.30. 6 hours a day, for ****'s sake? God help them. And they stop answering phones at 2.30! Anyway...) and finally got in. Four windows opened up, and after serving about two customers each, ten minutes later, two of them closed their curtains again. One girl went for a cup of tea (I saw all this once I was standing for a while at my window) while the other lad had closed his curtain to tidy up his desk! I swear to Jaysus he was actually putting staples in his stapler. I thought my blood pressure was going to give me a stroke or something.

It's not just give me an example of the woeful inefficiences in the public sector, it's where to begin...

SimpleSam06 · 19-10-2008 03:22PM

luckat wrote: »

In what sense is the service the same? Have no machines been bought? Are the same number of patients treated? Are the treatments given to these patients the same? Are the drugs the same, and do they cost the same? I think not.

To put the shoe on the other foot, can you show us a 300% improvement in any areas? Anywhere?

luckat wrote: »

But no, still too general. What I'm talking about is a way in which a company or civil service section fails to use efficient methods of doing something.

Nah, what you're looking for is names and numbers, dates and hard evidence of slovenly behaviour. You can dismiss everything else as anecdotal, handily enough.

So your entire premise from the get-go is false, unless you think someone wants to take the risk of landing in court for naming names. Which you know full well they won't.

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Increments (pay rises) can be withheld and managers can recommend that staff are not suitable for promotion. This stays on their record and can be a disaster for someone who had hoped to make a career out of slouching.

Sorry now, but you are referring to a sector where performance is set by yourself and if you meet the targets you set yourself, you've done well. Give over.

mikedragon32 wrote: »

The vast majority of civil servants get between 20 and 25 days annual leave. I don't know of any that get 35 days, with the exception of teachers.

For someone who claims to know a lot about the inner workings of the public sector, you seem to have missed that the civil service is a seperate branch and actually quite small part of the public sector- teachers aren't in it.

mikedragon32 wrote: »

I can't deny that there are great inefficiencies in the civil service, but the vast majority of civil servants are conscientious and hard working.

Good for them, but we don't need them. the public sector premium in Ireland is twice that for other countries. They can tell their stories walking.

mikedragon32 wrote: »

The proposed reductions in staffing won't make for a leaner meaner civil service. Many areas will just use it as an excuse for further inefficiency. The stock excuse for delays will become "insufficient staffing".

That stunt is old hat, particularly in the health sector. The time is coming when refusal to do their jobs will result in more severe penalties than pay and hiring freezes.

luckat · 19-10-2008 03:23PM

PaddyofNine wrote: »

I went to the tax office in Nutgrove the other morning to get tax. Queued from nine for the office to open at half past (as if it'd kill them to open from 8.30 and accommodate people who have to go to work.

Now that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Or the post offices not taking credit cards - ludicrous, and a make-work, because all that cash has to be dealt with.

Or I ordered a photo from a government department recently, and they *hire in a private photographer* to set up a studio, take a photo of the photo, get it developed in a laboratory, and drop it back - do they not know about scanners?

Or the old business where the ESB open a road and mend the wires, then the gas company comes in and does the same, then the council for the waterworks, then the council again to put ramps in.

axel rose · 19-10-2008 03:28PM

If you guys think that the public and civil servants have it so handy why dont you bloody well work there?

yea all the rumours are true- some days I dont bother turning up, It doesnt matter. In fact last wednesday there were no civil or public servants at work at all! We all went to the pub.....FACT!!!
Im on mat leave at the moment.....btw we all get 15 years on full pay... its brilliant.

My job involves putting the clocks foward an hour in the various offices in my area. My collogue is trained to put them back. For this responsibility I get €87,650 pa. :rolleyes:

PaddyofNine · 19-10-2008 03:53PM

axel rose wrote: »

yea all the rumours are true- some days I dont bother turning up

That's not a million miles from the truth - an awful lot of people call in an awful lot of days with the old "I can't come in today, I'm sick". Sure some of them are sick, but a lot (I'd hazard about 50% of them) are not. The old "sore back" is another favourite.

And I do work in the public sector...

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 19-10-2008 03:53PM

mikedragon32 wrote: »

False. Civil servants can be sacked, it doesn't happen often, granted, but that's mainly because the union will tie a department up in knots and failing that, there's litigation. There are other routes for penalising poor performance. Increments (pay rises) can be withheld and managers can recommend that staff are not suitable for promotion. This stays on their record and can be a disaster for someone who had hoped to make a career out of slouching.

So the Peter Principle in action then.

axel rose · 19-10-2008 04:14PM

PaddyofNine wrote: »

That's not a million miles from the truth - an awful lot of people call in an awful lot of days with the old "I can't come in today, I'm sick". Sure some of them are sick, but a lot (I'd hazard about 50% of them) are not. The old "sore back" is another favourite.

And I do work in the public sector...

Yes paddy youre so right! seriously how did you find out it was 50%? God I remember the day 53% went out on fake sick leave :rolleyes:. There was war I tell ya!

The amount of nurses out with a 'sore back' Its all a big laugh alright. Sure what would they be doing to get a sore back!!! :rolleyes: I say all public and civil servants are drug dealers who keep immigrant children under the stairs to clean their house!! (The unions arranged it you know!!)

axel rose · 19-10-2008 04:19PM

incidently paddy have you considered taxing your car online?.........but sure arent you a civil servant? just take the day off and tax your car

Inefficiencies in the public and private sector

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