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Annoyed Trainee Solicitor
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To the last poster re allowing trainees to study in an already over populated market. Well, if you were the person not allowed to study over someone else - would you not be well p1ssed off. Then we would get slack for favouritism and no doubt be subject to rumours of allowing judge's sons/daughters etc to get precedence over the average joe. It's not the Law Society's fault that there are feck all jobs. If the demand is there, they will provide the places. Simple as. All trainees starting on the PPCI know at this stage the saturation of legal jobs market so they know what they are letting themselves in for. Just like I know that I prob won't get a job as a sound engineer immediately after I leave college. But it was my choice to study it, just like it's your choice to do the PPCI. Do you see what i'm saying?
Honestly, if I did not reach the academic standard to enter the PPC, then no, I wouldn't be pissed off. I'd prefer to know sooner rather than later that I wasn't good enough to achieve the standard.
I propose that they should raise the pass standard higher. This would see a reduction in numbers applying to study on the PPC.
[You do realise that people have to pass the fe1s before they can attend blackhall. Some people do not pass these exams, and therefore never even get the opportunity to study on the PPC. The reason I mention this is because you seem to think that the Law Society "allows" everyone to study on their course...
]
And, as for favouritism...:pac:I know that. Dazza suggested one after each tutorial/lecture/workshop which would amount to about 4 a day.
As has been said numerous times Utah, the law society has absolutely no power to limit entrance places. To do so would almost certainly land them in legal hot water. The problem (if there is one) lies with firms taking on trainees they don't necessarily need or can keep.
Try telling that to the fella that got 48% in his fe1s. The fact is they set they exams, and correct them, so they do have the power to determine who passes the entrance exams. I'm sure you're aware that there's a fairly high failure rate with the fe1s, so surely that itself is a barrier to entry?I'm getting pretty sick of telling people that. Mostly non-legal people but you'd think the other people in PPC1 would have some more sense. Can you actually imagine if they did limit numbers?
Firm A; This is great, I'm doing really well, I'm looking to expand my business and take on some more trainees.
Law Society: Not this time, the law is full.
Firm A: Oh well...
Much the same it is now.....
Law student: Hey I'm looking for a training contract; I've passed all my fe1s, I have a masters, and I'm willing to work for free.
Firm: Sorry kid, not this time, the law is full.
Law student: oh well.Are you certain you would have got through the entrance exams if the Law Society had a strict quota system e.g. only 200 people allowed to pass FE1's each year?
Yes, I'd be even more determined. I'm not for a minute suggesting that they should cut numbers to 200 just to turn it into an old boys club. However, I think they should be accepting a realistic number which reflects the Irish market's demand for legal services. For the past number of years, the Law Society has been churning out around 600-700 new solicitors every year. This was barely sustainable during the boom time, it definitely isn't now. I think that they should probably reduce to around the 400 mark for the next couple of years anyway. If things go back to the 80s, then numbers will fall to around 200.
Most other professions/careers are doing their utmost to shed numbers in the current economic climate, so why should solicitors be any different.Maximilian wrote: »I have to say I'm amazed at the attitudes of some people to this issue. Forget the legalities, they've been covered already - How on earth does the Law Society owe anyone here a living?
I never once suggested that the Law Society owed anyone a living. They do, however, have responsibility in training solicitors. I think some people here are merely expressing legitimate concerns over how they carry out that function.easy exams are college exams.
fe1s, by their very nature, are not easy exams.
The work involved to cover yourself for the actual exam is highly demanding and time consuming. While you may think the exam itself is easy ( of which you're in the vast minority regardless), the prep needed to be within an asses roar of passing these "easy exams" is colossal - thus making the exams themselves very hard.
The Fe1s are completly different to college exams. That's what catches people out, not the fact that they are incredibly difficult. I think a lot of people go into trying to predict the areas that will appear (as they did in college). The fe1s just don't work like that, and that's why they fall flat on their face.
Obviously there's more material to cover in the FE1s, but once you understand the best way to approach them, then they're pretty straightforward.0 -
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I remember when I was 11 I was asked what do you want to be when you grow up. I said a Lawyer and got laughed at. I was consistently told that i didn't have a hope of qualifying. I didn't have any contacts within the profession, the exams are too hard, it costs too much etc etc.
In 3 months time I will qualify as a solicitor. Now the talk is about redundancies in the legal profession, not enough jobs for everyone, higher costs and lower fee income, downturn in the economy which are all legitimate concerns of course. But at this stage i don't really care. I would be quietly confident that I will get a job next year most likely with my current firm. I am going into things with my eyes open. I understand the current climate. I know how demanding clients are. I know the future is not certain and I know there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But I also know that I am about to start a job (hopefully!) that I wanted to do since I was a child, that I still enjoy doing and I find both challenging and rewarding.
The saddest thing about the legal profession at present is that there is too many people working in it that do not want to be there. There are too many solicitors who have realised that it is not for them but they are too afraid to try doing something else. And these people are guilty of spreading negativity about the profession.
I swear to God, I should have been a psychologist, not a lawyer. This post proves that non-qualifieds, and the general public at large, have a desperate need to cling onto the belief that law is the last refuge of money if you just hang in long enough.
Your statement that "at this stage, I really don't care", gives it away and quite frankly is terrifying. I felt like you once, until I realised how skating on thin ice I was financially and every other way. Please, for your own sake, stop and think if you find yourself inexorably sliding into debt after you qualify.
"Too afraid to try something else" - I'm afraid mate, it isn't that easy. Debts incurred have to be cleared first, on a piecemeal basis given the current level of fees. For the record, I'm working slowly towards two other possible careers. I've been working with a lawyer life coach in the US, Monica Parker www.leavingthelaw.com. Although I couldn't afford to pay her this month
Negativity about the profession stems from seeing a conveyancing fee fall from 0.5% (which I was billing two years ago and I was the cheap conveyancer then) to 750 Euro and in respect of which clients still try to beat you down. My fee income has been slashed by approximately 50% through no fault of my own. Sorry to disappoint you if I'm not going to sing a happy-clappy tune in response. :rolleyes:0 -
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Can i ask you:
1. Why did you want to become a solicitor all those years ago?
2. Do you still wish to be a solicitor?
I think the answers to the above questions are very telling about a person. I think that if you ask a solicitor who still wants to be working in the profession what his/her views on future prospects are s/he will give you a different answer than someone who would love to leave the profession if they easily could. An honest opinion for either of these people will have some negative views about future prospects but from my experience the person who wants away will offer only the negative views.
I'm going to answer this as well if you don't mind.
Why did I want to become a solicitor? Well, indoctrination from parents who spent their lives giving out about Charles Haughey and saying that self-employed professionals were the only people who could make a decent living in Ireland was definitely the key factor. I also went to work in what you could call a Personal Injuries factory in the late 1980s and early 1990s during the summers, and saw that money was comfortable. Not millions, but comfortable. 1.5% of purchase price for a house; 1% of sale price; percentage points of any PI award. Probate ditto. All fair enoughsky.
As I went along though, and did my apprenticeship, the pitfalls started to become apparent - clients getting aggressive, liability to banks and building societies for no payment in return. But fees were still ok and any practice I worked in was doing a reasonably good turnover. You didn't need thousands of clients to survive.
Do I still wish to be a solicitor?
There are minor petty advantages. If you have a row with a car mechanic or get lip from a junior Garda, your ID or business card usually heads them off fairly quickly.
But overall, no, I don't. I hate the fact that we give undertakings to lending institutions thereby constantly exposing our insurance, for no payment in return. I don't want to even question on an internet site how that came about in 1987, but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.
I hate the fact that clients think we're just doormats to boss around - there's a vile type of client developing where they think they can direct you; i.e. just use your practice as a ventriloquist's dummy for what they want to say and do. The internet definitely has played a part, both in terms of sites such as this, and technology has quickened the pace at which everything must be done. There's a huge number of frivolous and vexacious complaints to the Law Society. And from my own POV I won/settled two cases recently for claimants in the District Court. I still haven't been paid, and not a word of thanks or gratitude from either client.
And the fees. It takes too long to get paid, and when you do, it's peanuts. If you don't have a huge client base from years back then you can only charge whatever your lowest competitor is charging.
And when you see long established practices like Eugene F. Collins and P.C. Moore advertising their conveyancing for a fixed fee of 995 plus VAT, that my friend is sincerely a time to worry.:mad:0 -
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What are you talking about? Did you actually read my post properly? If you did, you would realise that I work for the Law Society. I know how the FE1's work, thank you. I wouldn't have kept my job if I didn't. The numbers I referred to were people that had passed their FE1's and were applying to go onto the PPCI. I thought that was obvious!Johnny Utah wrote: »
[You do realise that people have to pass the fe1s before they can attend blackhall. Some people do not pass these exams, and therefore never even get the opportunity to study on the PPC. The reason I mention this is because you seem to think that the Law Society "allows" everyone to study on their course... ]
I accept your opinion but I disagree with it.
With regards to your pac face beside the word 'favouritism' - well this just shows you're bitter about something. Not sure what. You didn't explain why you are accusing the Law Society of favouritism, you just saw an opportunity to throw a meaningless dig. So why not jump on the bandwagon and blame the Law Society for everything. Honestly, it's just tedious.0 -
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TheDemiurge wrote: »I'm going to answer this as well if you don't mind.
Why did I want to become a solicitor? Well, indoctrination from parents who spent their lives giving out about Charles Haughey and saying that self-employed professionals were the only people who could make a decent living in Ireland was definitely the key factor. I also went to work in what you could call a Personal Injuries factory in the late 1980s and early 1990s during the summers, and saw that money was comfortable. Not millions, but comfortable. 1.5% of purchase price for a house; 1% of sale price; percentage points of any PI award. Probate ditto. All fair enoughsky.
As I went along though, and did my apprenticeship, the pitfalls started to become apparent - clients getting aggressive, liability to banks and building societies for no payment in return. But fees were still ok and any practice I worked in was doing a reasonably good turnover. You didn't need thousands of clients to survive.
Do I still wish to be a solicitor?
There are minor petty advantages. If you have a row with a car mechanic or get lip from a junior Garda, your ID or business card usually heads them off fairly quickly.
But overall, no, I don't. I hate the fact that we give undertakings to lending institutions thereby constantly exposing our insurance, for no payment in return. I don't want to even question on an internet site how that came about in 1987, but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.
I hate the fact that clients think we're just doormats to boss around - there's a vile type of client developing where they think they can direct you; i.e. just use your practice as a ventriloquist's dummy for what they want to say and do. The internet definitely has played a part, both in terms of sites such as this, and technology has quickened the pace at which everything must be done. There's a huge number of frivolous and vexacious complaints to the Law Society. And from my own POV I won/settled two cases recently for claimants in the District Court. I still haven't been paid, and not a word of thanks or gratitude from either client.
And the fees. It takes too long to get paid, and when you do, it's peanuts. If you don't have a huge client base from years back then you can only charge whatever your lowest competitor is charging.
And when you see long established practices like Eugene F. Collins and P.C. Moore advertising their conveyancing for a fixed fee of 995 plus VAT, that my friend is sincerely a time to worry.:mad:
In other words you got in to it then because of parental persuasion and the lure of monetary rewards. You qualified and worked through the good times of the Irish economy and most likely earned a comfortable living from it. And now times are harder. The comfortable living is not as secure as it once was. The work pressures have not gone away (maybe increased). I think it is people like yourself that are going to find the next few years the hardest.
There will still be work over the next few years but not as much as before. There will still be clients that will pay for work done but not as much as they used to pay. The work pressures will still be there and probably will increase with the extra competition in the marget and extra regulation. It's up to people to face up to this and adapt or else go and do something else.0 -
I think it is people like yourself that are going to find the next few years the hardest.
As opposed to you, running out of Blackhall with your hot little parchment in hand in 3 months' time?
:D:D Do you seriously think that the world is just waiting for you to qualify, chequebook in hand, ready to hand over 300 Euro a hour just because now you have the scarecrow's piece of paper from the Wizard of Blackhall? You're still living in Mammy and Daddyland, my friend. You sound very smug, like you sincerely believe your particular future is assured, as opposed to anyone else's. What sets you apart from your contemporaries, or those with significantly more experience? Get real - no one gives a fiddler's you-know-what about newly qualified solicitors, and that includes you. There's less beauty salons for f**k's sake than solicitors practices.
Honestly, you come across as not having the remotest clue about a day in the life of a working solicitor. Are you a working trainee or one on paper with the time just ticking away?
Sorry to burst your cocky little bubble, but I won't be hanging around much longer in this game for extra regulation, extra competition, and far less pay. The likes of you can go down that road. If the historical snob value is what gets you off, I can think of cheaper ways of acquiring that. If helping others is your forte, I felt like that once, but lately most solicitors get nothing but abuse no matter how much work they do or how much injustice they overcome. Come back to me in five years time and tell me what you think.
The parsimonious Irish punter who believed media bull about solicitors and in turn treated solicitors like s**t will turn around in a few years and find there is no one there willing or able to help them when they most need it. And don't say to me that the big firms will act for them because they don't act on behalf of small individual clients who are out to challenge the established status quo.:rolleyes:0 -
TheDemiurge wrote: »As opposed to you, running out of Blackhall with your hot little parchment in hand in 3 months' time?:D:D Do you seriously think that the world is just waiting for you to qualify, chequebook in hand, ready to hand over 300 Euro a hour just because now you have the scarecrow's piece of paper from the Wizard of Blackhall? You're still living in Mammy and Daddyland, my friend. You sound very smug, like you sincerely believe your particular future is assured, as opposed to anyone else's. What sets you apart from your contemporaries, or those with significantly more experience? Get real - no one gives a fiddler's you-know-what about newly qualified solicitors, and that includes you. There's less beauty salons for f**k's sake than solicitors practices.
Honestly, you come across as not having the remotest clue about a day in the life of a working solicitor. Are you a working trainee or one on paper with the time just ticking away?
Sorry to burst your cocky little bubble, but I won't be hanging around much longer in this game for extra regulation, extra competition, and far less pay. The likes of you can go down that road. If the historical snob value is what gets you off, I can think of cheaper ways of acquiring that. If helping others is your forte, I felt like that once, but lately most solicitors get nothing but abuse no matter how much work they do or how much injustice they overcome. Come back to me in five years time and tell me what you think.
The parsimonious Irish punter who believed media bull about solicitors and in turn treated solicitors like s**t will turn around in a few years and find there is no one there willing or able to help them when they most need it. And don't say to me that the big firms will act for them because they don't act on behalf of small individual clients who are out to challenge the established status quo.:rolleyes:
I said that people like you will find the next few years the hardest. What i meant was that someone who no longer wants to be in the profession but has become accustomed to a certain standard of living and cannot afford to just leave the profession due to personal responsibilties will find it extremely hard. Doing a job that you don't want to be doing and having to work harder for less money you definitely will not be happy. I admittedly did not make myself clear in my earlier post and i apologise if i came accross as "smug" or "cocky".
However, i am still entitled to my views whether you agree with them or not.0 -
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