Woman doesn't bother paying her rent... wins a court settlement

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 02:12PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Yes, like everything else, there is a procedure to be followed.But have you any idea how long this takes and how much money is involved for you to get posession of your own property?

Yeah I do, and that is one of the reasons why I'm not a property investor! Obviously we have a load of people now in the rental property market who didn't do their homework.

mountainyman · 08-10-2008 02:13PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Just because she won doesn't mean it was the right decision.

This story isn't about property owners being brought down to earth, it's about a scrounger who has just paved the way for every other scrounger to turn to their landlord and say 'I'm not paying and if you try kick me out I'm going to sue you for €12k'.

well you and I will have to disagree WILE I would burn landlords if it were up to me which it isn't

shoegirl · 08-10-2008 02:14PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just looked at the newsclip...

She was renting this property for 8 years, and in the majority of that time, the HSE was paying the majority of her rent. Recently the HSE ceased paying rent on her behalf and there the problem with rent payment seems to have started.

First question is why have the HSE been paying her rent? I agree with AARGH, if she couldn't afford to live there, then she shouldn't be living there. I felt sorry for her because there has been a lot of change in a very short time in this country recently and if she has been renting for 8 years and the first sign of trouble, she is fu*ked out onto the street, then that is wrong I think.

I think you have to be a certain type of person to be a landlord. To be a landlord, you have to be able to go into a house and put a woman and her kids out onto the street. That's not me thankfully.

What I'm more worried about after watching this is that we have hugely overpriced houses in this country, which means hugely inflated mortgages which means if that property is being rented out, we have unaffordable rent. So we have social services ultimately paying rent to landlords so those landlords can pay inflated mortgages for overpriced houses...

Now, who do you think is paying for the social services???

Probably the best post on the subject I've seen yet.

Sadly the private rented sector is clogged up with rent subsidised tenants who by rights should be in social housing. They cannot pay market rents themselves, yet their presence in the sector (in some cases without having any real choice) has grossly inflated rents as rent allowance maximums have become the baseline rents, regardless of property locations or standards. As a result, earners have been lumped with even higher rents.

Secondly, the overinflated mortgages and rents do have a secondary feedback loop. Bigger mortgages means bigger rents which just keeps inflating until it hits a point where there are few tenants who can afford to pay it. Net result is relative overcrowding (popularly known as "house sharing"), rents disproportionate to tenant incomes, and eventually, mortgages which cannot be paid.

It all contributes.

However the reason why the lady got compensated was because the landlord did not follow the correct legal process. And sadly, the reason it exists is because so many tenants in the past have been booted out illegally, though most I've seen were grossly antisocial and sometimes criminal behaviour (like severe damage to the property).

dr.bollocko · 08-10-2008 02:15PM

If you dont pay your way you should just **** off.
OK there should be a process but come on, the chick got compensation for not paying her rent.
Ridiculous.

faceman · 08-10-2008 02:17PM

If the tenant had only not paid €600 as opposed to €6k, would everyone be pleasding bleeding heart to the landlord if she turfed the tenant out? Maybe not.

Regardless of whether is was 6k or 60k the landlord should have followed the correct process for evicting a tenant.

The landlord waited too long too. Id have started the eviction process after 1 unpaid rent amount.

Im not celebrating the tenants court victory but there are reasons why we have rules for this type of thing!

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 02:19PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

If you dont pay your way you should just **** off.
OK there should be a process but come on, the chick got compensation for not paying her rent.
Ridiculous.

I can understand the purpose of the compensation as a stong deterrent to other rogue property investors. If compensation wasn't awarded, investors would just turf people out at a whim. If I was a landlord after reading this article, I'd think twice about kicking someone out...

The_Conductor · 08-10-2008 02:20PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Yes, like everything else, there is a procedure to be followed.But have you any idea how long this takes and how much money is involved for you to get posession of your own property?

To even get a hearing at the PRTB can take 6-8 months, and even if it rules in your favour (as a landlord) it can still take another year and potentially the county sheriff to regain possession of *your* property.

There was a due process to be followed, as spelt out in the 2002 Residential Tenancies Act. While the tenant was in breach of her lease when she stopped paying rent, eviction can only be carried out in a specific manner. Unfortunately for the landlord, they bolloxed up- they didn't give notice to quit in the requisite manner. Automatically they are in the wrong, irrespective of the relative merits of the case.

By rights the HSE should have immediately informed the landlord they were no longer subsidising the rent of the tenant and when the subsidy was due to cease. Unfortunately they are not allowed to do so- under privacy laws- which is a load of bollox too. If the landlord was in possession of the full facts he could have sat down with the tenant and worked something out (even if it meant a lower rent). Now its a god forsaken mess. The EUR7,200 in outstanding rent cannot even be offset against the 12k in the tenants favour. The landlord must attempt to recover this as prescribed in the act through PRTB arbitration (another 6-7 months) followed by civil proceedings. While the PRTB arbitration is ongoing- the tenant still can't be evicted..........

Some landlords used to be complete and utter ****- but the pendelum has swung entirely in the opposite direction to the extreme.......

dr.bollocko · 08-10-2008 02:21PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

I can understand the purpose of the compensation as a stong deterrent to other rogue property investors. If compensation wasn't awarded, investors would just turf people out at a whim. If I was a landlord after reading this article, I'd think twice about kicking someone out...

Fair point. I do see what you are saying in terms of that tenants have rights too. Its just mental that it went on for 6k worth of rent and he just turfed them out.

Wile E. Coyote · 08-10-2008 02:24PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah I do, and that is one of the reasons why I'm not a property investor! Obviously we have a load of people now in the rental property market who didn't do their homework.

When considering buying a property to rent who in their right mind reads up on the legal procedure to deal with a tenant who owes you €6,000? What if the landlord hadn't bought the house to rent. What if they had decided to move abroad for a year or two but the house there when they got back? Would it still be their fault for not doing their homework?

Raytown Rocks · 08-10-2008 02:28PM

Maybe she will take €6000 of the €12000 she got and pay the landlord what she owes:rolleyes::rolleyes:

AARRRGH · 08-10-2008 02:29PM

chef wrote: »

Maybe she will take €6000 of the €12000 she got and pay the landlord what she owes:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'd love to know if she is willing to do that. I can already hear her answer though: why should I have to do that?

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 02:32PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Its just mental that it went on for 6k worth of rent and he just turfed them out.

Yeah but that's what you take on. If the landlady had first of all become acquainted with the law in this area and followed the stated procedure and had proper business systems in place to take the proper and appropriate legal actions against the client within proper timeframes, this situation might not have gone to court, or if it did, the tenant might not have won the case.

Every business has to deal with regulation. The problem with a lot of property investors, is that they just saw a get rich quick plan and I'd say very few of them looked at their investment as a business, they just saw it as a get rich quick scheme, where if you don't get paid, you can turf someone out. Now big Paddy with his big swinging d*ck and his big 4 bed semi D investment property, needs to go and learn the rules and I think it's about time...

Run_to_da_hills · 08-10-2008 02:34PM

Kensington wrote: »

Not really - you rent out a house, you have a contract/lease for the rental. Technically, if you don't keep to your side of the contract and pay your rent then you're breaching your contract. Landlord should have every right to turf you out in that case. Especially after approx. six months of non payment...

He has no right to evict anyone. It is up to the courts to issue an eviction order to the offending party for breach of lease contract. .

dr.bollocko · 08-10-2008 02:34PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah but that's what you take on. If the landlady had first of all become acquainted with the law in this area and followed the stated procedure and had proper business systems in place to take the proper and appropriate legal actions against the client within proper timeframes, this situation might not have gone to court, or if it did, the tenant might not have won the case.

Every business has to deal with regulation. The problem with a lot of property investors, is that they just saw a get rich quick plan and I'd say very few of them looked at their investment as a business, they just saw it as a get rich quick scheme, where if you don't get paid, you can turf someone out. Now big Paddy with his big swinging d*ck and his big 4 bed semi D investment property, needs to go and learn the rules and I think it's about time...

Yeah this is true as well.
I guess the issue is one of tenant rights and all. I mean she did live there for 8 years right? If the tenant is to be turfed out then due process has to be followed. I wonder what that process is, how long it takes, and if the landlord gets back the lost rent if he / she follows it.

Wile E. Coyote · 08-10-2008 02:35PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

I can understand the purpose of the compensation as a stong deterrent to other rogue property investors. If compensation wasn't awarded, investors would just turf people out at a whim. If I was a landlord after reading this article, I'd think twice about kicking someone out...

You keep talking about 'rogue propert investors' and landlords getting whats coming to them but the truth is neither landlords or property investors want to kick people out on the street. It's too time consuming and costly. What they want is tenants who will pay for the property that they are living in.

I can't believe there are so many people on the side of a scrounger! It's clear to see how many people would happily not pay their rent and then say it was the landlords fault.

The_Conductor · 08-10-2008 02:35PM

True- its high time the amateur landlords either got up to speed on tenancy law, or out of the business. What I was saying though is that tenancy law has gone way too far in some respects- and in others is a minefield- particularly as its common knowledge that the PRTB procedures take a min 6-7 months, during which time there is nada you can do.

Wile E. Coyote · 08-10-2008 02:41PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Yeah this is true as well.
I guess the issue is one of tenant rights and all. I mean she did live there for 8 years right? If the tenant is to be turfed out then due process has to be followed. I wonder what that process is, how long it takes, and if the landlord gets back the lost rent if he / she follows it.

The simple answer there is that it can take years if you get a sympathetic judge and how do you get back the lost rent for that time from someone who feels they shouldn't have to pay rent in the first place?

rasper · 08-10-2008 02:42PM

theres a severe anti-landlord sentiment through this thread and probably through the country, while its true that the buy to let investor pushed up the market values, along with the speculators but ya can hardly blame someone for buying a property in the hope it would fund a pension in later years,
I bought my own home but was under increasing pressure to go for a buy to let , glad I didnt as I figured it was too late for that, but I don't wish ill on those who did

dr.bollocko · 08-10-2008 02:42PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

The simple answer there is that it can take years if you get a sympathetic judge and how do you get back the lost rent for that time from someone who feels they shouldn't have to pay rent in the first place?

So what do you do? A series of short term leases at the end of which you can ask the tenants to leave or something?
Jaysus this is a bit of a minefield when you look at the facts.

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 02:47PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

You keep talking about 'rogue propert investors' and landlords getting whats coming to them but the truth is neither landlords or property investors want to kick people out on the street. It's too time consuming and costly. What they want is tenants who will pay for the property that they are living in.

I can't believe there are so many people on the side of a scrounger! It's clear to see how many people would happily not pay their rent and then say it was the landlords fault.

Yeah, we'd all like customers that paid on time every time, the trouble is that when you have a business, this doesn't always happen! I'm not on the side of a scrounger, but I personally believe that this trend in recent years of amateur property parasites snapping up properties everywhere to get rich quick has resulted in a load of people now owning properties to rent who are unfamilar with legislation in this area, and I don't want to be living in a country where I'm walking down my local street and I come across a scene from 1850's Ireland, where a woman and her children are sitting on top of their posessions in black plastic bags after being evicted because she couldn't pay her rent.

For a country that spent so long trying to rid itself of absentee landlords and fought so hard for property ownership rights, it is amazing how quickly our social principles have been thrown completely out the window...

Wile E. Coyote · 08-10-2008 02:49PM

I suppose it's a bit like gambling. You take a risk by renting out your property. There's a chance you won't get paid the rent but you don't expect to get sued for €12k by someone who who you had to kick out cause they wouldn't pay their rent.

The_Conductor · 08-10-2008 02:52PM

Its supposed to be a investment based on sound principles though- not a gamble. Thats the knux of the problem......

dodgyme · 08-10-2008 02:52PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

It's called due process...

Its called due rent

Darragh29 · 08-10-2008 02:54PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I suppose it's a bit like gambling. You take a risk by renting out your property. There's a chance you won't get paid the rent but you don't expect to get sued for €12k by someone who who you had to kick out cause they wouldn't pay their rent.

The 12K award has nothing to do with not paying the rent directly. The 12K award is for being evicted but not being given proper notice. It is perfectly legal to evict someone if you follow the correct procedure. What the landlady in this case did was no different to what happened years ago when the local lord would send out his agent or bailiff to torch the thatch roof of a cottage that was behind in rent, to send out a signal to everyone else.

dodgyme · 08-10-2008 02:56PM

Alessandra wrote: »

Getting paid rent from the HSE for 8 years? ...

Maybe hse should look for a partial refund seeing her good fortune

perhaps the irish taxpayer should get this back nope?

AARRRGH · 08-10-2008 03:02PM

I think we all agree the landlord broke the law by kicking out her tenant. We may not all agree that the 12k is a fair award, but we understand it is because she kicked out her tenant.

We also all agree there are a lot of amateur landlords out there.

If we can accept this... can we get back to the issue of entitlement so many people seem to have?

Wile E. Coyote · 08-10-2008 03:02PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah, we'd all like customers that paid on time every time, the trouble is that when you have a business, this doesn't always happen!

Anyone in business know's your never going to get paid on time every time. But when your not paid for a certain lenght of time you cut off service. This is a reasonable course of action for any business and as you said landlords should treat there properties as a business.

I'm not on the side of a scrounger, but I personally believe that this trend in recent years of amateur property parasites snapping up properties everywhere to get rich quick has resulted in a load of people now owning properties to rent who are unfamilar with legislation in this area

I agree that there was far too many people buying properties to rent but I think the fact that property values have fallen considerably and these 'investments' are now a burden on their shoulders to be enough of a kicking without the tenants not paying the rent and then being sued for trying to get rid of them.

Wile E. Coyote · 08-10-2008 03:12PM

Darragh29 wrote: »

The 12K award has nothing to do with not paying the rent directly. The 12K award is for being evicted but not being given proper notice. It is perfectly legal to evict someone if you follow the correct procedure.

If the system was as quick to issue the eviction order as it was to award compensation then the landlord wouldn't have to do what she did. Maybe it worked out cheaper for her to pay the €12k than to spend two years going through the courts trying to get rid of her.

to send out a signal to everyone else.

Maybe they should award compensation to the landlords and that would send out a signal to all tenants that if you don't pay then there are consequences!

stovelid · 08-10-2008 03:14PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The landlord did a foolish thing, he threw someone vulnerable out on to the streets. It is up to the Landlord to make sure a lease agreement is drafted up between himself and the tenant.

Yeah, this is the point. She deserves to be pursued for rent, as it's out of order not to pay. But, as a landlord, he has responsibility to pursue it the right way and not put a family on the street.

It is galling to think that she's probably laughing it up though.

Orange69 · 08-10-2008 03:17PM

Can someone explain why the fack the HSE are paying her rent?

Woman doesn't bother paying her rent... wins a court settlement

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