N.Irl rape survey - on news today

Macha · 30-09-2008 08:12PM

dotsman wrote: »

Seriously, without knowing how the questions were phrased etc, polls are useless.

javaboy wrote: »

If you want to get a particular answer from a survey, you can usually find a way to tailor your questions accordingly.

Seriously lads, you can't just dismiss an entire piece of research like that. According to your logic, we shouldn't trust any research at all. Do you go and read through the methodology of every poll & piece of research you trust?

Amnesty are up-to-date on questionnaire methodologies and structure their research accordingly. Unless you'd like to provide us with a critique of the actual methodology..? Anyway, all attitude surveys are open to this criticism. Does this mean we don't trust any of them? Nonsense.

javaboy · 30-09-2008 08:17PM

taconnol wrote: »

Seriously lads, you can't just dismiss an entire piece of research like that. According to your logic, we shouldn't trust any research at all. Do you go and read through the methodology of every poll & piece of research you trust?

No I don't go through the methodology of every survey. If I'm going to repeat it to others as fact though I would want to take a look at the questions and the demographic surveyed.

Amnesty are up-to-date on questionnaire methodologies and structure their research accordingly. Unless you'd like to provide us with a critique of the actual methodology..? Anyway, all attitude surveys are open to this criticism. Does this mean we don't trust any of them? Nonsense.

Amnesty are also an organisation with an agenda it has to be said.

And yes I would say don't trust any of them. That's not to say I dismiss them. Just that I won't blindly accept the results of any survey. I would approach any survey like this with a healthy amount of skepticism.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 30-09-2008 08:18PM

taconnol wrote: »

Seriously lads, you can't just dismiss an entire piece of research like that. According to your logic, we shouldn't trust any research at all. Do you go and read through the methodology of every poll & piece of research you trust?

Amnesty are up-to-date on questionnaire methodologies and structure their research accordingly. Unless you'd like to provide us with a critique of the actual methodology..? Anyway, all attitude surveys are open to this criticism. Does this mean we don't trust any of them? Nonsense.

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence." — Bertrand Russell, Roads to Freedom

indeed.

Macha · 30-09-2008 08:30PM

Mordeth wrote: »

indeed.

I would hardly call a study, backed up with concurrent evidence of other similar surveys, as well as a clear bias in our judicial system "the slightest evidence". Nice attempt at wit, though.

javaboy - healthy scepticism is grand, I agree with you there. Outright dismissal without reading into it? Unfair. (Not saying this is what you said..)

30-09-2008 08:34PM

If I see a woman not covered up 100% I will rape her at the first given chance.

javaboy · 30-09-2008 08:35PM

Here's a story about a similarly themed survey for the Republic: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0326/rape.html

Orr Tee Eee wrote:

A national survey has found that 25% of people questioned believe that women who had been raped were in some way to blame for the attack.

The finding is included in the results of a Red C poll published in this morning's Irish Examiner.

The Irish Examiner Red C survey revealed dramatic differences in empathy for a raped woman based on age and social class.

AdvertisementAlmost 33% of those surveyed thought a victim was in some way responsible for being raped if she flirted with a man or failed to say 'no' clearly.

10% of people felt the victim was entirely at fault if she had a number of sexual partners.

One in three believed a woman was either partly or fully to blame if she wore revealing clothes.

Nearly one in four people felt that a woman must share some of the blame if she walked through a deserted area.

25% believed a woman who was drunk and took illegal drugs was either partly or fully to blame.

The survey also found that adults under the age of 25 were far more likely to blame a raped woman than people aged 25 to 44.

Reacting to the survey, Fiona Neary, Director of Rape Crisis Network Ireland said, 'This highlights the issue of how consent is understood, particularly in relation to jury trials.

'We need a change in legislation to define clearly what consent is, and a comprehensive education programme to back that up.'

Note the parts that say "fully to blame". Do you really think that there are many people who actually think that a woman wearing revealing clothes or who has had more than 3 sexual partners is fully to blame?

The term 'fully to blame' implies that they attach no blame to the rapist whatsoever. I doubt that many people would seriously believe that.My favourite one is "the victim was entirely at fault". That's a bit of an oxymoron really.

I'd say this survey and the methodologies used are similar.

Honey-ec · 30-09-2008 08:45PM

78% of all statistics are made up*

*by me

Macha · 30-09-2008 08:46PM

javaboy wrote: »

Note the parts that say "fully to blame". Do you really think that there are many people who actually think that a woman wearing revealing clothes or who has had more than 3 sexual partners is fully to blame?

The term 'fully to blame' implies that they attach no blame to the rapist whatsoever. I doubt that many people would seriously believe that.My favourite one is "the victim was entirely at fault". That's a bit of an oxymoron really.

I'd say this survey and the methodologies used are similar.

Why is that so hard to believe when that attitude itself is reflected in reality? It is extremely difficult to get a rapist convicted and the victim's past sexual history is fair game for the defense to pour over.

Moreover, I would expect that due to the "warmglow" effect, that more people wanted to say this but did not, due to self-censorship.

javaboy · 30-09-2008 08:47PM

Honey-ec wrote: »

78% of all statistics are made up*

Forfty percent of all people know that.

javaboy · 30-09-2008 08:54PM

taconnol wrote: »

Why is that so hard to believe when that attitude itself is reflected in reality?

I doubt it is to be honest that it is but I'm open to be convinced. Until I see the questions of the survey and the methodology employed, this piece of research won't be the one to do the convincing.

It is extremely difficult to get a rapist convicted and the victim's past sexual history is fair game for the defense to pour over.

Rape is often such a blurry issue though. In many cases, people are out in a nightclub or other social situation. Drink is involved. The woman was seen flirting with the guy earlier etc. It is by its nature a very hard crime to convict someone for. So the conviction rate doesn't necessarily tell you what people's attitudes are towards it.

the_syco · 30-09-2008 09:02PM

koth wrote: »

I mean you don't blame house owners for being robbed. 'Well sir, you should have considered the chances of being robbed before you bought the house.':eek:

If you left the door open, and the car keys, widescreen TV, and money in view, you'd get your house robbed.

Macha · 30-09-2008 09:08PM

javaboy wrote: »

I doubt it is to be honest that it is but I'm open to be convinced. Until I see the questions of the survey and the methodology employed, this piece of research won't be the one to do the convincing.

Fair enough. I'm not sure what sort of evidence will satisfy you. We'll have to wait til full report is available.

javaboy wrote: »

Rape is often such a blurry issue though. In many cases, people are out in a nightclub or other social situation. Drink is involved. The woman was seen flirting with the guy earlier etc. It is by its nature a very hard crime to convict someone for. So the conviction rate doesn't necessarily tell you what people's attitudes are towards it.

I agree that rape is blurry but shockingly low rape conviction rates are also influenced by things such as services available to women, training of gardai, etc. Plus, the first convicted case of rape within a marriage only took place last year - so basically people thought you could force a woman to have sex with you, just as long as you were married to her. I think you can tell quite a lot about attitudes from that.

javaboy · 30-09-2008 09:51PM

taconnol wrote: »

Fair enough. I'm not sure what sort of evidence will satisfy you. We'll have to wait til full report is available.

Well tbh I would always be skeptical about surveys conducted with the backing of organisations with agendas, good or bad. In my own experience from talking to people, I don't believe that anywhere near 46% of people would consider a woman partly/fully to blame for being raped because she wore revealing clothing. I'd say a lot of people think it's a factor though, which is significantly different. We'll see when the full report comes out what the story is.

I agree that rape is blurry but shockingly low rape conviction rates are also influenced by things such as services available to women, training of gardai, etc. Plus, the first convicted case of rape within a marriage only took place last year - so basically people thought you could force a woman to have sex with you, just as long as you were married to her. I think you can tell quite a lot about attitudes from that.

But you're jumping to conclusions there. What evidence would there be in marital rape cases? I imagine it would often come down to one person's word against another's. I don't know if I'd be willing to convict on that basis.

A lack of convictions doesn't tell the whole story.

m@cc@ · 30-09-2008 10:06PM

Crystal Scary Point wrote: »

Idiots. Another reason never to go up there.

BTW, in yore ma's case, it's not rape.

There's a wealth of wisdom in that post. :rolleyes:

I've been a student in Belfast and I'm fairly sure none of my immediate peers would have formed that opinion. I'd be intrigued to see the survey questions. Statistics can be used to prove anything, 90% of people know that.

Macha · 30-09-2008 10:21PM

javaboy wrote: »

Well tbh I would always be skeptical about surveys conducted with the backing of organisations with agendas, good or bad. In my own experience from talking to people, I don't believe that anywhere near 46% of people would consider a woman partly/fully to blame for being raped because she wore revealing clothing. I'd say a lot of people think it's a factor though, which is significantly different. We'll see when the full report comes out what the story is.

Well good luck finding an organisation that carries out research without an agenda. Seriously, science is not value-free and money does not grow on trees (hey, that rhymes). Even university departments receive money for research and this has to be declared, quite rightly. But look, I take your point.

javaboy wrote: »

But you're jumping to conclusions there. What evidence would there be in marital rape cases? I imagine it would often come down to one person's word against another's. I don't know if I'd be willing to convict on that basis.

A lack of convictions doesn't tell the whole story.

Sorry, I actually wrote that down wrong. I meant to add that rape within marriage was only criminalized in 1990. Not that long ago. And then no conviction until 17 years later?

(I know this is the Tribune & not a scientific article but..)
https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2006/jan/22/marital-rape-a-crime-with-no-punishment-for-16-yea/

However, an as yet unpublished study into garda handling of rape allegations by women shows alarmingly poor practice in the investigation of the claims.

The seminal study by Dr Stephanie O'Keeffe found that gardai are prejudiced against victims, believing that women from working-class backgrounds and those with addiction problems are likely to make false allegations.

O'Keeffe, a Surrey-based academic who is now chief researcher with Ireland's Crisis Pregnancy Agency, found that many gardai perceive their role "more as deciding if a rape allegation is true, as opposed to looking to corroborate the information". The study noted "stereotypical social categorisation" among some garda investigators, who believe working-class people are more likely to give false information.

There is little awareness among gardai of the interview techniques and skills that could elicit reliable testimony from a victim. This suggests that a significant number of files outlining allegations of rape, which may be forwarded by gardai to the DPP, are not resulting in prosecution due to badly obtained testimony from a rape victim.

O'Keeffe did 32 interviews with gardai of varying expertise and experience, in which they described how they conducted rape investigations.

O'Keeffe analysed how they conceptualise their role as investigators and how they make key decisions about individual allegations. She also interviewed women who made complaints of rape to gardai.

So research can shed light on attitudes.

dotsman · 30-09-2008 11:21PM

taconnol wrote: »

Seriously lads, you can't just dismiss an entire piece of research like that. According to your logic, we shouldn't trust any research at all. Do you go and read through the methodology of every poll & piece of research you trust?

Amnesty are up-to-date on questionnaire methodologies and structure their research accordingly. Unless you'd like to provide us with a critique of the actual methodology..? Anyway, all attitude surveys are open to this criticism. Does this mean we don't trust any of them? Nonsense.

I can very easily dismiss it. If someone wants to present survey results, they have to produce the survey as well (anyone who works in research knows that). None of the reports I've seen has given any indication of what questions were asked or how the survey was completed. Without this knowledge, the survey could say that "110% of people love surveys" for all I care. The fact that they are not publicising what the survey was, means that they know it's a load of BS.

Do some people have these fckued up views of rape. Of course, there are nutters out there. But, from my experience, very few. And without a proper survey, my experiences are the only facts I have to relate to.

Kintarō Hattori · 30-09-2008 11:43PM

Bendihorse wrote: »

Rape is wrong no matter what the circumstances, im just saying that wimmen should take more care and responsibility for their personal safety. In a lot of cases, rape could have been preventable if the girl was watching out for herself.

wimmen should take more care of themselves. Ehh what the hell?

Rape could have been avoidable if the woman had been watching out for herself. What on earth are you trying to say?

javaboy · 30-09-2008 11:52PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

wimmen should take more care of themselves. Ehh what the hell?

Well he's right to a certain extent. They shouldn't have to take more care of themselves, but the unfortunate reality is they probably do.

Rape could have been avoidable if the woman had been watching out for herself. What on earth are you trying to say?

The thing is I think a lot of people would agree with him. In a lot of cases, rape probably could be avoided if the woman had made certain choices. The opinion that she could have prevented it but didn't, doesn't imply that she's to blame though.

The Mighty Ken · 01-10-2008 02:33AM

One thing often left undiscussed in these debates are the number of women who falsely accuse men of raping them. I don't think anyone could predict what the actual ratio of legitimate accusations to false accusations is but it's just as heinous (if not more heinous) a crime. Sadly there are a large number of women out there who, whether they be in the minority or majority, are making genuine cases less credible.

In the majority of false accusations, I'd imagine it goes a little something like:

Women gets hammered and drags home some equally hammered bloke
Women pulls the pants of bloke, bloke pulls the pants off woman
Woman and bloke have crazy, drunken monkey sex
Woman wakes up with a filty hangover and is completely disgusted with and ashamed of herself
Woman decides to accuse bloke of raping her
Blokes life is left ruined (whether convicted or not - "there's no smoke without fire" and all that)

Rape, whether as a brutal act of sexual violence or as a device in a false accusation, has countless victims of both genders. Let's pay a little respect to both of them and stop making it a female-centered crime.

Macha · 01-10-2008 08:34AM

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Rape, whether as a brutal act of sexual violence or as a device in a false accusation, has countless victims of both genders. Let's pay a little respect to both of them and stop making it a female-centered crime.

I was agreeing with your post, right up until here. Are you in some way suggesting that the amount of false rape claims are equal to genuine rape claims? That's just insane. Last year, 83% of calls to the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre were from women. And you're trying to say rape ISN'T a female-centred crime??

dotsman · 01-10-2008 09:13AM

taconnol wrote: »

I was agreeing with your post, right up until here. Are you in some way suggesting that the amount of false rape claims are equal to genuine rape claims? That's just insane. Last year, 83% of calls to the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre were from women. And you're trying to say rape ISN'T a female-centred crime??

Have you ever thought that the overwhelming majority of male victims don't call a woman's helpline? (By the way, that is what the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre is - they always harp on about women this and women that, completely ignoring the male victims).

Men rape women, men rape men, women rape men, women rape women. It is not, by any means exclusive to 1 gender and 1 sexual preference.

Irishcrx · 01-10-2008 10:32AM

The only people who really agree with this survey are rapists.

N.Irl rape survey - on news today

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