N.Irl rape survey - on news today

javaboy · 30-09-2008 12:08PM

Blowfish wrote: »

It depends completely on how the questions were worded and how they came to the conclusion.

If for example the question was "Do you think women who wear provocative clothing are more at risk of sexual assault/rape than those who don't", the resulting percentages don't suprise me. Given the tabloid nature of the article, it wouldn't suprise me if they were just jumping to conclusions from there.

+1. I'd say the questions were loaded to a certain extent.

Do you think a woman dressed provocatively is more likely to be raped?

If you answered yes to that then you must accept that a woman could equally reduce the chances of being raped by dressing conservatively.

So if a woman could have done something to potentially reduce the chances of being raped, but didn't, it could be argued that she is partially responsible.

Obviously it's a big pile of balls since there's only one person responsible for a rape, but you can't argue with the logic above. I'd say some kind of similar logic was used to arrive at the conclusion they reached.

Plus Amnesty International benefits from being as high profile as possible. Sensationalist headlines like this keep them in the news.

Dinter · 30-09-2008 01:12PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I'm afraid it looks more and more like we are living in a society full of 'animals'. It is simply never, EVER acceptable to rape a woman. She should be free to flirt and wear whatever she wants.

Anyone who says rape is justifiable on any level is pure scum.

I'd find it hard to believe that anyone could even attempt to justify rape. There's no way you could logically say that a woman wearing certain clothes has somehow given up her say. By rape I mean a person going out and meeting someone with the intention of having sex with them without consent.

However you could definitely say that a woman who has gone out, gotten hideously drunk, blown off her friends to hook up with a bloke she met that night, gone home with him, slept with him and wakes up the next day with no recollection of any of it has placed herself in that position.

Is that girl justified in saying she was raped? She may not have had her full wits about her but she might have consented or, more importantly, not said no. I have woken up in bed entangled with women I have only the faintest recollection of inviting home. Sometimes not even that.

I don't think that the fact that I have no recollection of agreeing to sex means I was raped. Sometimes, as you recoil at what you've trawled home, you might wish to negate the responsibilty and part you had to play in the preceeding events.

luckat · 30-09-2008 01:32PM

Bendihorse wrote: »

I cant say i agree with it on that level, women should be allowed to flirt within reason, and wear revealing clothes without a male presuming shes 'his' or game for sex.

Who will police the allowed level of flirting, and what measurements are to be used? Just interested.

"Excuse me, miss, you've flipped your hair four times now; that means you've indicated you're game for sex."

"I did *not*. I flipped my hair only three times."

"I'm the rapist police, and I saw you flip it four times."

The_Minister · 30-09-2008 01:32PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yhN1IDLQjo

tbh

Nehaxak · 30-09-2008 01:34PM

Bendihorse wrote: »

It is NEVER ok for a man to rape a woman under any circumstances

Whoa, hold on there now, what if it's roleplay and no safe words were used when the rope was tied and gag applied ?

Anyway, seriously, wasn't rape invented by English protestants plantated into Ulster centuries ago ?

all the stars · 30-09-2008 01:37PM

Dinter wrote: »

However you could definitely say that a woman who has gone out, gotten hideously drunk, blown off her friends to hook up with a bloke she met that night, gone home with him, slept with him and wakes up the next day with no recollection of any of it has placed herself in that position.

Is that girl justified in saying she was raped? She may not have had her full wits about her but she might have consented or, more importantly, not said no. I have woken up in bed entangled with women I have only the faintest recollection of inviting home. Sometimes not even that.

I don't think that the fact that I have no recollection of agreeing to sex means I was raped. Sometimes, as you recoil at what you've trawled home, you might wish to negate the responsibilty and part you had to play in the preceeding events.

ok while i get this, have to say....
why would you want to have sex with someone who is so sloppy drunk they have no clue whats going on regardless of them being on for it ?
thats just lousy... & surely thats kinda desperate...

buckieburd · 30-09-2008 01:46PM

I read an artical a while back where a jornalist interviewed several rapists in prison, and asked them a few questions. One of them was did what the women were wearing make any difference and most of them said yes, that the picked the dowdyier non tarty dressed ones as they thought they wouldn't be as 'fiesty' and fight back....

I agree with what Bendihorse is saying, NO-ONE deserved to get raped but you have to use your cop on, never drink so much that you cant defend your self, avoid walking home on your own and always look out for your mates..

John Mason · 30-09-2008 01:52PM

buckieburd wrote: »

self, avoid walking home on your own

This is very good advice BB and how about not aguing with your friends as they try to get you in a taxi

;)

buckieburd · 30-09-2008 01:56PM

irishbird wrote: »

This is very good advice BB and how about not aguing with your friends as they try to get you in a taxi ;)

God damn you woman, dont ruin my 'I'm a responible adult act'

robinph · 30-09-2008 01:58PM

all the stars wrote: »

why would you want to have sex with someone who is so sloppy drunk they have no clue whats going on regardless of them being on for it ?

all the stars = someone who has never got drunk before.

Dinter · 30-09-2008 02:08PM

all the stars wrote: »

ok while i get this, have to say....
why would you want to have sex with someone who is so sloppy drunk they have no clue whats going on regardless of them being on for it ?
thats just lousy... & surely thats kinda desperate...

No, it's called early twenties!

Seriously though I don't mean I'd be sober either.

all the stars · 30-09-2008 02:36PM

robinph wrote: »

all the stars = someone who has never got drunk before.

been jarred many a night, but always aware of whats going on. never ever drank soooo much that i black-out and lose a whole night.

Macha · 30-09-2008 02:38PM

Leeby wrote: »

The only way I can explain it would be a group of people sitting round, filling in this thing and reading that and making a joke of it with their mates/girlfriends. I know it's not funny but I could imagine most lads I know thinking it's hilarious, and ticking yes and sayin something stupid to their girlfriends like "see now If you don't put out tonight I'll batter ya!"

Yes because God forbid we actually recognize that we have a serious problem in our society concerning attitudes towards women and rape.

king_of_inismac wrote: »

How many of us have heard of someone being mugged while sober, and walking through a well lit safe area? NONE why? because attackers are looking for an easy target.

Good advice but unfortunately, the sort of anecdotal advice you present above is very misleading. There is a taboo in our society over rape. A tiny fraction of rape cases are reported and even less go to trial (and even less are convicted). I really don't think going on "how many of us have heard of..." is a good idea. Fortunately, the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre has stats and they state that over half of rapes are committed by a person known to the victim...how does a woman protect herself against that?

Many women protect themselves against strangers but when half of rapes are committed by someone you know, what are you supposed to do? (And how the bloody hell is it your fault??!)

all the stars · 30-09-2008 02:39PM

Dinter wrote: »

No, it's called early twenties!

Seriously though I don't mean I'd be sober either.

well, thats my age range, and nope, never happened... and they say us young ones dont have any sense :P

all the stars · 30-09-2008 02:44PM

taconnol wrote: »

Good advice but unfortunately, the sort of anecdotal advice you present above is very misleading. There is a taboo in our society over rape. A tiny fraction of rape cases are reported and even less go to trial (and even less are convicted). I really don't think going on "how many of us have heard of..." is a good idea. Fortunately, the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre has stats and they state that over half of rapes are committed by a person known to the victim...how does a woman protect herself against that?

Many women protect themselves against strangers but when half of rapes are committed by someone you know, what are you supposed to do? (And how the bloody hell is it your fault??!)

yup, and generally when rape goes to trial its the womans sexual history that is under scrutiny, goes one of these ways
1) your a slut and you just changed your mind or something to that effect
2) your a virgin type who now doesn't want to look like a slut or something like that...

anyway, generally the woman winds up having to explain all her sexual history and all that.

And, i know 2 women who were raped, both totally differant ages and people.
lady A told her O/H who called her a liar and nasty things did follow and was never believed
lady B told her family many years later and they didn't believe her

on both occasions all these people knew eachother, and neither reported it

robinph · 30-09-2008 03:03PM

all the stars wrote: »

been jarred many a night, but always aware of whats going on. never ever drank soooo much that i black-out and lose a whole night.

That's what I said wasn't it?

daveharnett · 30-09-2008 03:36PM

As many others have said, I think it's quite possible that this survey has confused lack of precaution and blame.

Dinter wrote: »

However you could definitely say that a woman who has gone out, gotten hideously drunk, blown off her friends to hook up with a bloke she met that night, gone home with him, slept with him and wakes up the next day with no recollection of any of it has placed herself in that position.

Is that girl justified in saying she was raped? She may not have had her full wits about her but she might have consented or, more importantly, not said no.

It doesn't work like that. Not saying no does NOT equal consent.

I'm not sure how intoxication works in this situation. AFAIK you are legally responsible for what you do while under the influence (provided that you consume voluntarily). In other words, you can be bound by a contract you sign while you're drunk. I don't know if this applies to consent for sex too.

SV · 30-09-2008 03:39PM

They consider themselves English, It was already clear they're lacking a lot of intelligence.

robinph · 30-09-2008 03:59PM

ClioV6 wrote: »

They consider themselves English, ...

Since when?

Dinter · 30-09-2008 04:21PM

daveharnett wrote: »

It doesn't work like that. Not saying no does NOT equal consent.

Does that not mean a woman can be raped after the fact purely by changing her mind.

If you're capable of saying no and don't then I think it is safe to assume you're giving consent. Even if you were charged I wouldn't think you could be convicted of raping someone without the intent to do so.

Obviously I don't mean this would be the case if someone was threatening you or tricking you or any of the other ways a person might be raped or if you were underage.

hobochris · 30-09-2008 04:29PM

daveharnett wrote: »

As many others have said, I think it's quite possible that this survey has confused lack of precaution and blame.

It doesn't work like that. Not saying no does NOT equal consent.

I'm not sure how intoxication works in this situation. AFAIK you are legally responsible for what you do while under the influence (provided that you consume voluntarily). In other words, you can be bound by a contract you sign while you're drunk. I don't know if this applies to consent for sex too.

Contract Law Explicitly states that any contract is void if any party enters it under the influence of alcohol.

Also, as I remember my leaving cert business teacher saying: "Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on."

daveharnett · 30-09-2008 05:01PM

Dinter wrote: »

Does that not mean a woman can be raped after the fact purely by changing her mind.

If you're capable of saying no and don't then I think it is safe to assume you're giving consent.

I take your point, and I'd say that any reasonable jury member would understand that there are non-verbal ways of communicating consent :pac:

My point was that the absence of a verbal refusal is not in itself equivalent to consent.

hobochris wrote: »

Contract Law Explicitly states that any contract is void if any party enters it under the influence of alcohol.

Interesting. I stand corrected. It does seems curious, given that you can be held responsible for your actions under the influence if you commit any sort of a crime.

Dudess · 30-09-2008 05:05PM

ClioV6 wrote: »

They consider themselves English, It was already clear they're lacking a lot of intelligence.

No, British. And not all people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British.

Tawny · 30-09-2008 06:13PM

A little perspective.

They interviewed 715 students from a combined student population (University of Ulster) of 28,000. So roughly 2.5% of students from this institution were surveyed, and less than half of them have made the headlines. I don't know how they figure out rules for a survey to be representative but still....

Also, Amnesty did not conduct the survey themselves. It was conducted by students of the university, through the 'Science Shop'. Not sure what this is, but the website does say "All participating students receive a certificate detailing their action-based project as well as an opportunity to be considered for an annual cash prize for the best project."

Would a cash prize boost your desire get headlines?

I dunno, I don't want to take away from the research, or the issue of rape and the way society views it, but it just made me think.

see-
http://prospectus.ulster.ac.uk/geninfo/science-shop.html
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17890

Macha · 30-09-2008 06:29PM

Tawny wrote: »

A little perspective.

They interviewed 715 students from a combined student population (University of Ulster) of 28,000. So roughly 2.5% of students from this institution were surveyed, and less than half of them have made the headlines. I don't know how they figure out rules for a survey to be representative but still....

Also, Amnesty did not conduct the survey themselves. It was conducted by students of the university, through the 'Science Shop'. Not sure what this is, but the website does say "All participating students receive a certificate detailing their action-based project as well as an opportunity to be considered for an annual cash prize for the best project."

Would a cash prize boost your desire get headlines?

I dunno, I don't want to take away from the research, or the issue of rape and the way society views it, but it just made me think.

see-
http://prospectus.ulster.ac.uk/geninfo/science-shop.html
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17890

Survey size is important but other areas of methodology (ah don't fall asleep!) are also important. For example, did they use probability sampling or non-probability sampling? Probability sampling makes results general to the entire population - ie (the student body of this university) but not to anyone outside that population (ie everyone else). BUT the aim of the research was violence on university campuses so you can blame other people (ie OP) for generalising it to the entire population of Northern Ireland.

Financial incentives are often used to increase participation levels because refusal rates can suggest a bias. You would have to look at all these issues before making up your mind on the reliability of the research.mHowever, the research does seem to fall in line with other research done south of the border. Also, as someone else pointed out, the attitude towards rape can be seen in certain aspects of our legal and judicial system.

Agamemnon · 30-09-2008 06:31PM

Tawny wrote: »

A little perspective.

They interviewed 715 students from a combined student population (University of Ulster) of 28,000. So roughly 2.5% of students from this institution were surveyed, and less than half of them have made the headlines. I don't know how they figure out rules for a survey to be representative but still....

I dunno, the fact that they were all students makes it worse - you'd expect students to be a bit more open-minded and sympathetic to rape victims.

There's never any justification for rape but that doesn't stop rapists from dreaming up endless pathetic excuses: "She was asking for it, your honour", "I was in prison before and they never reformed me properly, your honour", "I was drunk, your honour", "My mammy didn't love me enough, your honour" - all of it utter horseshit. Sad to see attitudes like those in the survey in today's world. Wonder how long before some scumbag uses this survey as evidence in his defence?

Dragan · 30-09-2008 06:38PM

ClioV6 wrote: »

They consider themselves English, It was already clear they're lacking a lot of intelligence.

Results from a survey in the South released not too long ago were fairly similar.

lostexpectation · 30-09-2008 06:53PM

can people be held respoinsible for their answers if the question is provocative

dotsman · 30-09-2008 07:56PM

Can't believe we are debating this crap.

a couple students filled in a survey. Some were hungover, others were drunk, others thought it was an MCQ exam and filled in the obligatory c,a,c,d,a,b,d, (they're always the right answers folks), others were just taking the piss.

Seriously, without knowing how the questions were phrased etc, polls are useless.

javaboy · 30-09-2008 08:03PM

dotsman wrote: »

Seriously, without knowing how the questions were phrased etc, polls are useless.

Exactly.

SAMPLE SURVEY

Which one of these best describes you:

A person who beats little children and fellates donkeys
A 30ft carrot

"A recent survey found that 96% of people considered themselves to be an ass sucking child abuser."

If you want to get a particular answer from a survey, you can usually find a way to tailor your questions accordingly.

N.Irl rape survey - on news today

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