Chemical Castration for sex offenders in Poland, introduce it here in Ireland?

CiaranC · 26-09-2008 02:43PM

Bleeuurgh, AH makes me want to puke. Half you scumbags would have us living under some Saudi-esque terror state.

Zillah · 26-09-2008 03:00PM

Its not permanent. The most common form is Depo-Provera, the subjects injest large quantities on a weekly/daily basis. As said, its not a magic cure for unwanted sexual urges. It can suppress desire, but offenders can offend if they want to, and many report that it has little effect.

Dudess · 26-09-2008 03:01PM

CiaranC wrote: »

Bleeuurgh, AH makes me want to puke. Half you scumbags would have us living under some Saudi-esque terror state.

They wouldn't really... it's mostly just talk.

seamus · 26-09-2008 03:07PM

Loose Lips wrote: »

Seamus: This is indeed a thorny issue and a solution to it is not immediately obvious. The sad fact is that there are always going to be a small number of people in the world who are, for want of a better word, monsters. We need to ensure that these 'monsters' are prevented from doing harm, but we also seem to want to avoid doing anything as bad as the 'monsters' themselves.

The use of the word "monsters" indicates an unwillingness to believe that these are human beings, just because of their actions.

A dog attacking and killing another dog, is still called a "dog", so why should it be any different for human beings? The idea that someone can be a "monster" or "evil" is a social justification for not applying normal rules to them, to allow people sleep more soundly in their beds. People aren't born "evil". There's no such thing as a person who is born inherently and unreversibly "evil".

There were times gone by where left-handedness was "evil" or heresy was "evil", and society justified ridiculing, outcasting and torturing these people on the basis that they were somehow subhuman. The fact is that they simply didn't understand the concept, therefore by branding the people as non-human, they were swiftly dealt with.
So too is the problem of paedophilia. We need to study it, intensively and coldly, without any passion or prejudice, with a view to deciding what needs to be done with it. It's not going away, and all the castration in the world won't do a damn thing.

MizzLolly · 26-09-2008 03:07PM

I'm not sure if 'chemical' intervention is the solution, that kind of suggests that the reason a man rapes/abuses a person is due to factors outside of his own free will/choice. It subtly suggests that it was not the actual person who committed the crime but rather his urges, caused by 'chemical' forces within his body.

Maybe they should take a look at the psychological factors that play in this.
If the problem isn't caused chemically, why try fix it that way?

pickarooney · 26-09-2008 03:17PM

Only if they spey wimminz who lie about it.

Loose Lips · 26-09-2008 03:27PM

seamus wrote: »

The use of the word "monsters" indicates an unwillingness to believe that these are human beings, just because of their actions.

A dog attacking and killing another dog, is still called a "dog", so why should it be any different for human beings? The idea that someone can be a "monster" or "evil" is a social justification for not applying normal rules to them, to allow people sleep more soundly in their beds. People aren't born "evil". There's no such thing as a person who is born inherently and unreversibly "evil".

There were times gone by where left-handedness was "evil" or heresy was "evil", and society justified ridiculing, outcasting and torturing these people on the basis that they were somehow subhuman. The fact is that they simply didn't understand the concept, therefore by branding the people as non-human, they were swiftly dealt with.
So too is the problem of paedophilia. We need to study it, intensively and coldly, without any passion or prejudice, with a view to deciding what needs to be done with it. It's not going away, and all the castration in the world won't do a damn thing.

Seumas: I didn't mean they were monsters in the same sense as the Kraken, or Godzilla. They are humans, but their desires and actions are so transgressive as to earn them a separate category to normal offenders, whose motivations and actions we can understand.

Like you rightly say, people have always feared that which they do not understand and can't explain, hence the use of emotive labels, such as monster.

As our present state of understanding is so limited, the focus of our actions has to be to prevent these people from causing any harm. You are right in saying we should try to understand what causes them, and attack the problem where it originates.

But we shouldn't ignore the possibility that they are simply 'wrong' people, who are made of 'the wrong stuff.' Stuff that should be removed from the gene pool.

pablomakaveli · 26-09-2008 03:28PM

I say convicted paedophiles should be tied to a stake on a busy street and passers-by invited to give them a few swift kicks to the offenders balls. eventually after all that punishment their balls would probably just turn green and fall off.:)

In all seriousness though, there is no guarentee they wont offend again. some paedophiles abuse children just because it gives them a sense of power and castration wont change that.

taibhse · 26-09-2008 03:47PM

seamus wrote: »

The use of the word "monsters" indicates an unwillingness to believe that these are human beings, just because of their actions.

A dog attacking and killing another dog, is still called a "dog", so why should it be any different for human beings? The idea that someone can be a "monster" or "evil" is a social justification for not applying normal rules to them, to allow people sleep more soundly in their beds. People aren't born "evil". There's no such thing as a person who is born inherently and unreversibly "evil".

There were times gone by where left-handedness was "evil" or heresy was "evil", and society justified ridiculing, outcasting and torturing these people on the basis that they were somehow subhuman. The fact is that they simply didn't understand the concept, therefore by branding the people as non-human, they were swiftly dealt with.
So too is the problem of paedophilia. We need to study it, intensively and coldly, without any passion or prejudice, with a view to deciding what needs to be done with it. It's not going away, and all the castration in the world won't do a damn thing.

I don't think you can somehow compare lefthandedness to paedophilia???
This is a serious crime and leaves its victims scarred I'm sure for the rest of their lives. If it was your child or sister or family member, would you be so understanding, I don't think so.

People are forgetting the focus should be on the victim. The people who commit these crimes are sick and I think they should lose the rights that most of us enjoy. Just because they are people?????? so what.

Zillah · 26-09-2008 04:19PM

MizzLolly wrote: »

I'm not sure if 'chemical' intervention is the solution, that kind of suggests that the reason a man rapes/abuses a person is due to factors outside of his own free will/choice.

It is so cute that you think free will/choice are anything other than chemicals.

seamus · 26-09-2008 04:27PM

taibhse wrote: »

I don't think you can somehow compare lefthandedness to paedophilia???

I didn't. Read the post again.

ShellBell1 · 26-09-2008 04:42PM

gurramok wrote: »

Should we do the same?

Yes.

taibhse · 26-09-2008 04:43PM

I did, and I read it as a comparison between the two. i.e society doesn't understand it so its classed as evil based on that lack of understanding

Piste · 26-09-2008 04:48PM

What does chemical castration actually do? Just inhibit testosterone? If they had some sort of chemical precodure whereby the man couldn't get an erection then it would be much safer as rapists etc. couldn't physically commit their crime.

We'd still have the paedophiles though.

SheroN · 26-09-2008 05:01PM

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.

seamus · 26-09-2008 05:04PM

taibhse wrote: »

I did, and I read it as a comparison between the two. i.e society doesn't understand it so its classed as evil based on that lack of understanding

Not really. My point was that society classes anything that it doesn't know how to deal with as "evil" so that it can comfortably exact punishment without actually doing anything about it. Left-handedness was probably a bad example, I was using it more to highlight how easy it is to class anyone as "subhuman" to justify doing whatever you want to them.

At best we can call paedophilia now a mental illness. That still leaves us with big holes and questions though - can we prevent it from occurring in the first place, and what can we do to "treat" it? Castration has been shown to not work.

taibhse · 26-09-2008 05:10PM

Not really. My point was that society classes anything that it doesn't know how to deal with as "evil" so that it can comfortably exact punishment without actually doing anything about it. Left-handedness was probably a bad example, I was using it more to highlight how easy it is to class anyone as "subhuman" to justify doing whatever you want to them.

OK see your point now, yes people point out things as "the other" to justify a lot of things

I believe people are born straight or gay or bi whatever, so are people born paedophiles?

If so any route of treatment would have a low success rate since it would be a "natural urge" for them

seamus · 26-09-2008 05:22PM

taibhse wrote: »

I believe people are born straight or gay or bi whatever, so are people born paedophiles?

Well we don't know. There's evidence to support the theory that people who were abused as children are more likely to abuse children themselves. Which would seem to indicate that it's something which is acquired.

It's also worth separating paedophilia (which involves children) from an attraction to teenagers and young adults (the word escapes me now). The two types of attractions rarely overlap, and the latter is often accepted to be a normal sexual attraction, just with a preference for younger members of the sex, distinct from paedophilia which often doesn't distinguish based on sex and is an attraction to young children.

Loose Lips · 26-09-2008 05:22PM

taibhse wrote: »

I believe people are born straight or gay or bi whatever, so are people born paedophiles?

If so any route of treatment would have a low success rate since it would be a "natural urge" for them

taibhse: Your belief about gays is not proven. Nor is the leap that pedophiles are the same as gays. Therefore, the conclusion that treating pedophiles would not work is faulty.

taibhse · 26-09-2008 05:44PM

Loose Lips wrote: »

taibhse: Your belief about gays is not proven. Nor is the leap that pedophiles are the same as gays. Therefore, the conclusion that treating pedophiles would not work is faulty.

There is science to believe that people are born with a sexual orientation. Brain scans have been done on straight and gay people and there was some evidence to show that e.g some gay women had a brain similar to a males and vice versa.

I never said it was proven.

I would never say that gays are the same thing as paedophiles that's one large presumption from my post. Its perfectly natural IMO to be gay/ straight whatever. Paedophiles on the other hand are sick IMO

Piste · 26-09-2008 05:46PM

Are you saying homosexuality is natural but paedophilia isn't?

Darragh29 · 26-09-2008 05:47PM

Here we go, the do gooders out again supporting paedophiles.

Take their nuts off with an angle grinder, only solution.

Piste · 26-09-2008 05:50PM

Yes I can really see lots of "support" for paedophiles on this thread.

Stupid kids should just learn to stop complaining.

taibhse · 26-09-2008 05:51PM

Piste wrote: »

Are you saying homosexuality is natural but paedophilia isn't?

IN MY OPINION yes. but that why I asked the previous question are paedophiles born like that?

Because however for their sexual attraction for children however it has come about, they should be stopped by whatever means necessary.

Call Me Jimmy · 26-09-2008 05:55PM

taibhse wrote: »

There is science to believe that people are born with a sexual orientation. Brain scans have been done on straight and gay people and there was some evidence to show that e.g some gay women had a brain similar to a males and vice versa.

I never said it was proven.

I would never say that gays are the same thing as paedophiles that's one large presumption from my post. Its perfectly natural IMO to be gay/ straight whatever. Paedophiles on the other hand are sick IMO

I'de like to see this science... where is it? I can't believe how people can so easily seperate paedophilia from other sexual orientations/fetishes without any basis.

staker · 26-09-2008 05:57PM

Anyone know where there's cheap penny sweets going?:o

taibhse · 26-09-2008 06:01PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I'de like to see this science... where is it? I can't believe how people can so easily seperate paedophilia from other sexual orientations/fetishes without any basis.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.

"This is the most robust measure so far of cerebral differences between homosexual and heterosexual subjects," she says.

Previous studies have also shown differences in brain architecture and activity between gay and straight people, but most relied on people's responses to sexuality driven cues that could have been learned, such as rating the attractiveness of male or female faces.
Brain symmetry

To get round this, Savic and her colleague, Per Lindström, chose to measure brain parameters likely to have been fixed at birth.

"That was the whole point of the study, to show parameters that differ, but which couldn't be altered by learning or cognitive processes," says Savic.

First they used MRI scans to find out the overall volume and shapes of brains in a group of 90 volunteers consisting of 25 heterosexuals and 20 homosexuals of each gender.

The results showed that straight men had asymmetric brains, with the right hemisphere slightly larger – and the gay women also had this asymmetry. Gay men, meanwhile, had symmetrical brains like those of straight women.

The team next used PET scans to measure blood flow to the amygdala, part of the brain that governs fear and aggression. The images revealed how the amygdala connected to other parts of the brain, giving clues to how this might influence behaviour.
Depression link

They found that the patterns of connectivity in gay men matched those of straight women, and vice versa (see image, above right). In straight women and gay men, the connections were mainly into regions of the brain that manifest fear as intense anxiety.

"The regions involved in phobia, anxiety and depression overlap with the pattern we see from the amygdala," says Savic.

This is significant, she says, and fits with data showing that women are three times as likely as men to suffer from mood disorders or depression. Gay men have higher rates of depression too, she says, but it's difficult to know whether this is down to biology, homophobia or simply feelings of being "different".

In straight men and lesbians, the amygdala fed its signals mainly into the sensorimotor cortex and the striatum, regions of the brain that trigger the "fight or flight" response. "It's a more action-related response than in women," says Savic.
'Striking differences'

"This study demonstrates that homosexuals of both sexes show strong cross-sex shifts in brain symmetry," says Qazi Rahman, a leading researcher on sexual orientation at Queen Mary college, University of London, UK.

"The connectivity differences reported in the amygdala are striking."

"Paradoxically, it's more informative to look at things that have no direct connection with sexual orientation, and that's where this study scores," says Simon LeVay, a prominent US author who in 1991 reported finding differences (pdf) in a part of the brain called the hypothalamus between straight and gay men.

But as Savic herself acknowledges, the study can't say whether the brain differences are inherited, or result from abnormally high or low exposure in the womb to sex hormones such as testosterone.

Call Me Jimmy · 26-09-2008 06:40PM

Interesting. I don't think it's exactly conclusive either. For example, it talks about how different brains deal with things like fear, anxiety and depression in different ways physiologically but surely if stuff like that can be changed psychologically, would that not cause the physiological responses to alter also?

taibhse · 26-09-2008 06:58PM

I never said it was conclusive or definitively proven just that there is some science out there to support the theory

zach morris · 26-09-2008 07:04PM

Rehabilitation not punishment, you conservative pricks.

Chemical Castration for sex offenders in Poland, introduce it here in Ireland?

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