Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Domestic Water Metering

2»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭conZ


    I know of at least two people who, when they had the meters installed had two pipes leading to it one before and one after the meter. (no prizes for guessing who installed the meter!)
    The one before was connected to the garden sprinkler and swimming pool etc.

    A quick paste from wiki -
    Originally AMR devices just collected meter readings electronically and matched them with accounts. As technology has advanced, additional data could then be captured, stored, and transmitted to the main computer, and often the metering devices could be controlled remotely. This can include events alarms such as tamper, leak detection, low battery, or reverse flow. Many AMR devices can also capture interval data, and log meter events. The logged data can be used to collect or control time of use or rate of use data that can be used for water or energy usage profiling, time of use billing, demand forecasting, demand response, rate of flow recording, leak detection, flow monitoring, water and energy conservation enforcement, remote shutoff, etc. Advanced Metering Infrastructure, or AMI is the new term coined to represent the networking technology of fixed network meter systems that go beyond AMR into remote utility management. The meters in an AMI system are often referred to as smart meters, since they often can use collected data based on programmed logic.

    Water poaching is obviosly a problem, but the new AMR technology will limit this. Also, most of the metering projects are Design, Build & Operate Contracts (operate for example, for 10-20 years until a renewal of contract. In this period the Contractor will have to carry out replacements/reinstatement etc.) - every meter is mapped on GPS and every meter under the DBO contract will have to be physically checked and tested on a regular basis. Poaching will eventually be eliminated.

    AMR has been successful notably in Italy and Sweden, where they have hit massive targets with their metering projects. I have one or two good articles in my favorites on another PC which I will post, but here's another interesting one about AMR for electricity -

    http://tdworld.com/customer_service/power_swedish_utility_amr/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭conZ


    Sorry for absolutely dragging this out of the doldrums, but i've been out of the Irish media loop for the past few months, living in Berlin getting some of the best mains supplied water I have drank in my lifetime.

    Obviously, I had to pay for domestic water use in Germany, but it was flat rate. I was living in an (older) apartment, and water was included in the rent. Each building does generally have a meter outside, but I have seen cases (generally newer apartment blocks) of meters (two in fact, a hot water meter and a cold water meter) installed inside some apartments. These meters were mounted on the wall, both discreet and each had their own stop valve.


    The reason i'm dragging this up is to find out what has been mentioned in the media of recent regarding the introduction of domestic water metering. I did hear Matt Cooper mention that there would be a discussion later on on 'The Last Word' yesterday evening, but was unable to catch the discussion.

    Has there been any word from the Government regarding it? Presumably not, I can imagine, seeing that there have been more and more boil notices introduced this Summer than ever, possibly because of the poor weather.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33 bigtime


    I can't believe the amount of idiots here. I pay 60% of my income in taxes, the least I expect is drinkable water in return.

    Another scam, with "green" as a front used to scam the odinary people.

    This country has no shortage of water, to say it has is insane,

    I tell you what, how about they start removing the flouride, would that not save them a few pound.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Minister Gormless said today that there would be no domestic water metering charges.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0826/1219679951619.html
    IT wrote:
    WATER CHARGES will not be introduced during the lifetime of this Government, Minister for the Environment John Gormley has said.

    30% leakage in urban areas!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    bigtime wrote: »
    I can't believe the amount of idiots here. I pay 60% of my income in taxes, the least I expect is drinkable water in return.

    Another scam, with "green" as a front used to scam the odinary people.

    This country has no shortage of water, to say it has is insane,

    I tell you what, how about they start removing the flouride, would that not save them a few pound.

    :eek:


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,661 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    gurramok wrote: »
    Minister Gormless said today that there would be no domestic water metering charges.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0826/1219679951619.html


    30% leakage in urban areas!

    He's full of crap. Most new houses are required to have one as a condition of planning. I have one (and my house was built five years ago)! Water metering is coming, whether we like it or not.


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's full of crap. Most new houses are required to have one as a condition of planning. I have one (and my house was built five years ago)! Water metering is coming, whether we like it or not.

    If (when) water charges are brought in, there must be a reduction in other taxes that are being paid in leau of a water rate.

    I heard that a small percentage of the road tax for example is used to pay local authorities water services. Not sure how true that is but the water gets paid for somewhere!


  • Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's full of crap. Most new houses are required to have one as a condition of planning. I have one (and my house was built five years ago)! Water metering is coming, whether we like it or not.

    I'm sure I've said it already but I don't think water in Ireland is worth paying for. I'm currently in one of the areas in Kerry which was served with the boil notice, though it was dropped about 24 hours later. You don't realise how much you need it until you can't use it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,930 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    SteveC wrote: »
    How can they possibly charge for water when they lose more through leaky pipes than is actually consumed????
    Part of the process is strategic metering to find leaks.

    That there are leaks is not a reason to waste even more water.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,575 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Victor wrote: »
    Part of the process is strategic metering to find leaks.

    Thanks Victor, I gathered that much from what conZ said.


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Victor wrote: »
    Part of the process is strategic metering to find leaks.

    That there are leaks is not a reason to waste even more water.

    Just be sure there are no leaks your side of the meter, my sister got an enormous bill one year as the pipe was damaged in the garden.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,930 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Sorry Steve, I didn't realise how old the thread was.
    bigtime wrote: »
    I can't believe the amount of idiots here. I pay 60% of my income in taxes, the least I expect is drinkable water in return.
    41% income tax
    2% Health levy
    4.5% PRSI
    47.5% Total

    Taking tax credits into account, nobody pays more than about 40-42%.


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Victor wrote: »

    41% income tax
    2% Health levy
    4.5% PRSI
    47.5% Total

    Taking tax credits into account, nobody pays more than about 40-42%.

    Maybe bigtime was including spending taxation VAT etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    just another scam to get people to pay for services twice. Theres other ways to regulate water without taxing it. Do we get a reduction in our PRSI based on this extra charge for the service we already pay for? will we f***k.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭conZ


    Anyone catch that piece on RTE 1 tonight at 9.30 about water quality and possible domestic water charge introduction.

    I was on the way out fishing when I heard about it on the radio and couldn't get it recorded. Anybody know the name of the programme and whether it's going to be repeated?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭conZ


    - Take from yesterdays Irish Times - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0922/1221998220429.html

    Should we introduce charges for domestic water usage?

    HEADTOHEAD: Seán Murphy says that it's only by measuring and paying for the use of a precious resource that we will learn to value and conserve it, while Martin Cronin says the savings to the State through the reduction of water usage could be cancelled out by the cost of monitoring and administering the scheme.

    Yes: Seán Murphy

    SUMMER 2008 will be remembered as the wettest season since records began. Why then, at a time of unprecedented rainfall, does it appear that Ireland may be running out of water? Our growing population and industrial needs mean that we now face a supply deficit. A recent report published by Forfás notes that despite significant investment in water capacity in recent times we face every prospect of water shortages in the medium term unless action is taken now.

    The conundrum of climate change brings additional challenges. We have also witnessed significant quality problems arising in a number of towns.

    Only last week, we heard that Ireland has been found guilty of failing to provide secondary waste-water treatment plants in towns with populations more than 15,000, in line with the relevant EU directive.

    The delay in the delivery of these required services has been 18 years and appears, at first instance, to be a direct result of lack of funding leading to inadequate water treatment investment and provision. The outlook is that significant fines will follow.

    A guaranteed clean water supply for homes and businesses is as vital a requirement for investment as international perceptions of our skills base and our corporate tax rate are. We risk this at our peril.

    For these reasons we must deal with our water needs in a combined approach that incentivises conservation efforts while guaranteeing supplies for the future.

    Local authorities are the vital conduit to deliver on this vision, yet they are not being funded at the levels needed to secure our water needs for the future.

    National experience shows that it is only by measuring and paying for a service that we establish a responsible attitude towards consumption of that service. Domestic refuse charges have proven very successful and led directly to significantly reduced waste volumes - down 30 per cent in one local authority alone - while encouraging enhanced recycling rates.

    In the short term, domestic customers must at the very least be metered in all new housing, even if not charged, so that water consumption can be measured and real conservation quantified for the benefit of all. This should be complemented by a programme of retrofitting subject to an adequate funding regime being established.

    An added benefit would be quicker identification of systemic water loss and the enabling of more targeted investment in the core infrastructure, a major issue given that a stunning 43 per cent of treated water is currently lost in transit from reservoir to tap in our nine regional gateways and hub towns.

    In the medium term, reasonable thresholds must then be put in place per capita where an allowance of water is allocated free of charge to all. This would allow those who waste water to pay fairly for additional water which they use at their own discretion.

    In addition, metering would allow local authorities to ascertain the true cost of domestic water provision and recoup these costs from the exchequer.

    Although some claim that domestic users pay indirectly for their water supply through income tax paid to central government, this money is not being passed on to local authorities. As a result the true cost of provision of domestic water services is not being met. In addition, 38.2 per cent of the labour force does not pay any income tax. Everybody needs to be incentivised to conserve water.

    Furthermore, where water quality issues have arisen, such as in Ennis and Galway, non-domestic paying customers should be given a 100 per cent rebate for water supplies that are polluted.

    A dual-taxation approach involving income tax and consumption-based taxes must be seriously considered by Government. This would balance the cost burden, ensure greater conservation and guarantee adequate investment in the future to assure our water supplies with consequential benefits for all.

    We are now awaking to the significant challenges to be faced in the provision of a clean water supply needed to secure future foreign investment, sustain our tourism industry and assure Ireland's international reputation as a clean, green country.

    At a time of straitened Government finances, additional revenue streams need to be identified to secure our water needs for the future. In order to address the emerging disparities in charges for business across local authority areas, reasonable, transparent, consolidated charging for water use together with a single fixed charge for all meter-related costs must be implemented as a priority.

    Such full-cost recovery must be accompanied by transparent reductions in commercial rates charged to business.

    The contents of Forfás's report demands that debate begins on this issue. Let it do so, but ultimately investment will cost money. All users must pay a fair price for excess, discretionary use of one of our most valuable economic resources.

    Seán Murphy is director of policy with Chambers Ireland, representing over 13,000 businesses on the island of Ireland.

    No: Martin Cronin

    IT SEEMS inconceivable, given the inclement weather of recent months, that within five years some of Ireland's most important cities and towns will be facing water service deficits.

    Yet this is one of the key findings of a recent report by Forfás that assessed Ireland's ability to meet the future water services needs of enterprise. The report found that water treatment capacity in Athlone, Dublin, Galway and Letterkenny may be insufficient to meet development objectives by 2013. These urban centres, along with Mallow and Wexford, may also experience shortages of waste water treatment capacity within the same period.

    Secure and competitively priced water supplies and treatment services are essential for business and particularly for a number of sectors of strategic importance to the Irish economy including the biopharma and food sectors. In general, water charges in Ireland are competitive, although there are significant variations in different parts of the country.

    Successive national development plans have invested heavily in water services to meet the needs of our growing economy and population. The current NDP has earmarked more than €4.7 billion for investment in these areas over the lifetime of the plan.

    To date the water services investment programme has focused on improving services and capacity levels across the country and ensuring that water quality levels are in line with EU requirements. These objectives are close to being achieved.

    The next phase of water service investment will require a more focused strategy that prioritises investment in the gateway and hub towns, to provide the capacities needed for future enterprise and population growth in these centres. A strategic approach to investment in water service infrastructure should not centre solely on investment in water and waste water treatment facilities, it will require a multi-faceted approach that aims to increase the efficiency of the water and waste water systems.

    Firstly, we need to adopt a national approach to the delivery of water and waste water services. Currently 34 local authorities are involved in the provision of these services. Moving to a river basin district provision of services would maximise the potential for economies of scale and enable greater strategic planning.

    Secondly, reducing the levels of water leakage occurring and encouraging greater water conservation among businesses and domestic users has the potential to reduce the level of capital investment required.

    Ireland has relatively high levels of unaccounted for water. On average 43 per cent of treated drinking water is lost through the distribution network, largely via pipe leakage and illegal connections.

    In future, no additional Exchequer funds should be allocated for the building of treatment capacity in urban centres until the local authority takes actions to reduce leakages to economically acceptable levels.

    The EU Water Framework Directive requires the implementation of the "polluter pays principle" subject to established practice. This means that all water users should pay the full costs for their use of water and waste water services. The Irish Government has secured a derogation from the directive in relation to domestic water users.

    Currently, all non-domestic users (eg businesses, farms, schools, hospitals) are required to pay for water and waste water services. Over the last number of years, local authorities have introduced metering and volumetric pricing for these users.

    The cost of providing water services to Irish homes is borne by the State, through local government funding rather than a specific water fund. The full cost of providing water services for domestic users needs to be clearly identified to ensure adequate funding is provided by the Exchequer. Once the cost of delivering water services to domestic users has been established, an analysis of the merits of retaining the derogation for domestic water charges can be undertaken to determine how best to fund water provision between users and the Exchequer.

    It cannot be assumed that the introduction of domestic water service charges would be the silver bullet required to resolve local and central government water service funding requirements. As witnessed in other jurisdictions, the introduction of domestic water charging involves not only political challenges but technical and economic ones.

    The introduction of quotas, which provide for limited free water and waste water services, would also require an expensive national metering installation programme and could be open to significant fraud. Even if the majority of homes would limit their usage to below quota levels the savings to the State through the reduction of usage could be cancelled out by the cost of monitoring and administering the programme.

    Finally, a core element of developing a strategic approach to water and waste water provision must be to enhance awareness of the need for water conservation. Greater conversation will help to protect a precious resource, as well as reducing the need for capital investment in new infrastructure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,755 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    conZ wrote: »
    -
    given that a stunning 43 per cent of treated water is currently lost in transit

    That's mad Ted!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Prof.Badass


    Whatever about charging for water, It definately should not be privatised.

    That would be a disatster!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 jcgowran


    ConZ

    Coming back to your discussion about paying for water, you certainly are well up on the facts. Yes we are the only country in europe now that does not pay for domestic water.

    Schools of course are now paying for water at a rate of €3.50/pupil rising to €4.00/pupil from 1st January 2009. Wouldn't it be better if all the schools paid for water on a metered basis then the incentive to save water would be greater. As 85% of school water is used for flushing toilets. The Galway city schools http://www.galwaycity.ie/TopNews/MainBody,4572,en.html have the right approach. They didn't have to throw out all their toilets and replace them with dual flush toilets which don't work at huge expense to the taxpayer in these difficult times.

    They installed Mecon Green Buttons www.meconwml.com on all their toilets which reduces the flush volume from 11L to 1L per flush. the school children now take an active part in saving water everytime they flush the toilet which is good fror their Green Schools project.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭conZ


    Sorry for the delay in getting back, only spotted the thread again while researching Domestic Water Metering...

    Originally - and you'll find in all the Non Domestic Water Metering Project Contracts - Schools, Churches, Community Halls etc, were all intended to be paying for their water on a metered basis (as set out by the local CC's).

    The Government kind of slipped the NDWM Projects into existence, and there wasn't much debate about the projects.

    The Schools incident arose in Ennis, where a local National School principal went to the press regarding a bill he recieved for the School (possibly up to €19k maybe?) for 6 months I think. I went to the same school and all I can remember are the sound of all the toilets flushing from 100m down the corridor, constantly. Serious waste of water in there. Maybe they had a meter fitted originally, but they were probably only paying the flat rate (which, I don't have off hand).

    Once the billing system for the NDWMP was introduced, this school had to pay the same rates as any normal establishment, as the flat rate was abolished (hence the outrageous bill).

    The principal in that school is the same one heard on the Last Word and Joe Duffy 6 times a year complaining about the funding and whatnot (but fair play to him). Heard him on in the radio last week in fact, and said that the school was built in 1975 - imagine the plumbing in there!

    Once this debate was sparked with this bill, the Government were under pressure and decided to modify the billing system for schools, and charge a flat rate (per pupil) which was to be increased progressively, and eventually (possibly the end of '09?) they will be moved up to the same rate as regular businesses and 100% metered (€5.50 per 1,000 gallons - 2008 Clare CoCo price but sure to be revised, if not already).

    This gives each school the opportunity to sort out their water systems and implement water conservation procedures. This gives rise to the arguement of funding for schools - where are they going to get the funding to retrofit and install new systems?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Altreab


    Does anyone have a link to where we can find out the typical water usage of the various mod cons we have such as washing machines, dish washers?
    I suspect when water metering comes in there will be a lot fewer half loads of washing done :)

    ok did a quick google and found this its in the UK but im sure figures will be generally the same


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement
Advertisement