How would you deal with a knife attack?

Tim_Murphy · 30-08-2008 02:45PM

chrischance wrote: »

Training against the knife is a must in every martial arts teacher's curriculum. In the present violent climate with gangs etc,. you cannot leave it out.
Running is a valid but facetious answer, it is not dealing with the question.
Training, training and more training is the answer. The more violent the training, the more effective it is. Repetition is boring but not when it is violent and painful and that is how it must be to be realistic.
You can't run if you've nowhere to run, ie,. prison or on a train or bus.

Nonsense.
1.The chance of a regular person living in Ireland getting attacked with a knife is quite low.
2.The amount of time training needed to get any good at knife defence would be quite high.
3. Even if you are good you're chances of beating a guy who is armed with a bald is low.

It's just not a productive use of a persons time, unless that person actually enjoys the process of training against blades. If they do more power to them, got for it but realise that is why you are doing it.

Boru. · 30-08-2008 04:09PM

Great response Tim, I both agree and disagree.

1. Yes, quite right. In fact based on the evidence and statistical report from the CSO, it works out at the chances of you being assaulted with a knife are less than 216,267 to 1.

2. I disagree here. You can be taught effective knife defence and gain enough profeicency to surivive substantially better than without training in less than 8 hours.

3. This depends on your definition of beating. If by beat you mean survival and escape then the odds are much much better with training. If you mean beat as is get into a fight with the knife weilder and win then yes I agree with you it's quite low. It's also a really dumb thing to do, why the hell would you engage someone with a knife? Escape is a much better option and much more likely a possability after basic training.

Odysseus · 30-08-2008 04:25PM

Boru, those stats would of course be for reported assaults. I would said alot go unreported. Especially where the crime was a robbery and the knife/sharpe implement is not actually used. I said this quite often here, buts its scary the amount of my clients that carry weapons, even the amongst the women.

Now you can said fair enough, if the weapon isn't used the person either runs or gives the person what they want. No big deal, part of my work is dealing with the psych impact of assaults in the work place, it can have quite a significant impact on a person.

Most of the guys I know who mug people [as you know I work with a distinct group] don't just show the knife and say give me your money, its a far cry from "Stand and deliver" its up close and person often to the throat, another ploy is a takedown from behind and shove a knife/screwdriver in the person's mouth. For a lot of people its going to take a lot to recover from that. But I'm talking to the converted with you.

Baggio... · 30-08-2008 04:43PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Boru, those stats would of course be for reported assaults. I would said alot go unreported. Especially where the crime was a robbery and the knife/sharpe implement is not actually used. I said this quite often here, buts its scary the amount of my clients that carry weapons, even the amongst the women.

Good post Seamus.

Well, whatever your decide to do - "train honestly", as Cestari would say.

Boru. · 30-08-2008 04:50PM

Very true my friend, and we both have the fortune of having a similar trainng background. We're both familiar with criminal weapon deployment as you mentioned, it's rarely the straight forward presentation.

As regards the stat's yes they are certianly based on reported crime, but again, one could look at the medical listings etc and extrapolate. Even assuming there was twice as much crime involving knives as reported it woudl still be a 100,000 to 1 shot that you would be attacked. Of course you could factor in geogrpahy etc, some places have a disproportionately large amount of stabbings etc.

As for the psychological impact I know and understand that all too well, and of course I leave that to your professional capacity.

On the aspect of carrying baldes in my research I foudn the following that may interest you...another excerpt from the upcoming article...

Based on the increase in Knife crime in London, the Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Tim Godwin said: "I would hate anyone to think that all young people in London carry knives”.

"We stopped 32,000 people in the main areas where we have concerns based on our intelligence. Out of those 32,000 searches, we've found 730 knives - so that's 2 in 100."

2% dude, in a far more violent city than Dublin. Now if you work with that 2% exclusively then of course you'd take that as indicitvie that a large amount of people carry knives, but they don't thank god.

In fact, in my experience, and here's an exact example of scoial conditioning, I met a lot of reality based martial artists. A large number fo them seem for some reason to be the only idiots I meet carrying knives. Does that mean that RB self defence guys all carry knives? No. Certainly not. It just means that I have met a few idiots in my time.

I don't care how you dice it, but the odds that any person will be attakced with a knife is VERY low. The odds that someone is carrying a knife is a little higher, but still comparitively very low.

The reason there is such a focud on it is disproportionate media focus - not becasue of a huge increase in every carrying knives and stabbing each other. Proper self defence, for me at any rate is about being realistic, and to worry about being stabbed all the time certianly isn't.

Martin25 · 30-08-2008 04:50PM

I have seen a lot of Traditional type block and hit stuff in my time but against a person who knows what they are doing its gonna get you cut or killed. Others say expect to get cut but this is not the mentality to have, hit fast and keep hitting hard to any vulnerable area til its over.

Odysseus · 30-08-2008 04:51PM

I don't know about that Rob, and tbh I don't have an answer to the original question. However, it good to see a few posts here from eric, paul and mick. I don't post here often myself but its good to seesome familiar names still come here.

Odysseus · 30-08-2008 04:56PM

I'm surprised at that 2% Paul it is interesting. However, carry out a stop and check outside my clinic and you will get a much higher figure.

Musashi · 30-08-2008 04:57PM

I still have that light for you as well Seamus, sorry man!

I thought Jennie had posted it weeks ago, apparently it got "tidied" and only reappeared during the week. I have it packed up and will send it out on Monday morning. Should be with you arounf Wednsday mate, my apologies again for the delay!

Boru wrote:

I met a lot of reality based martial artists. A large number of them seem for some reason to be the only idiots I meet carrying knives.]

Ha! Possibly me! I usually have a penknife on me, it's a tool I use opening mail and slicing apples. I don't carry anything if heading out to the bars as the repercussions of actually cutting some one are something that I am not prepared to deal with. The only fight I was involved in where a knife was used (not by me) put me right off the use of sharp and shinies as problem solvers. Blunt impact trauma is less messy by a long way!

Of course the lads still living where I grew up carry whatever they want, generally slash hooks and hatchets, often kitchen knives and sometimes Stanley knives and hammers. One guy was known to carry a full size machete on him! Geography and socio-economic factors can really skew your chances of being in an altercation where edged weapons are produced.

Avoiding the three "S's" is a good plan (going Stupid places doing Stupid things with Stupid people), but as they say "stuff happens".

Odysseus · 30-08-2008 05:20PM

Musashi wrote: »

I still have that light for you as well Seamus, sorry man!

I thought Jennie had posted it weeks ago, apparently it got "tidied" and only reappeared during the week. I have it packed up and will send it out on Monday morning. Should be with you arounf Wednsday mate, my apologies again for the delay!

Ha! Possibly me! I usually have a penknife on me, it's a tool I use opening mail and slicing apples. I don't carry anything if heading out to the bars as the repercussions of actually cutting some one are something that I am not prepared to deal with. The only fight I was involved in where a knife was used (not by me) put me right off the use of sharp and shinies as problem solvers. Blunt impact trauma is less messy by a long way!

Of course the lads still living where I grew up carry whatever they want, generally slash hooks and hatchets, often kitchen knives and sometimes Stanley knives and hammers. One guy was known to carry a full size machete on him! Geography and socio-economic factors can really skew your chances of being in an altercation where edged weapons are produced.

Avoiding the three "S's" is a good plan (going Stupid places doing Stupid things with Stupid people), but as they say "stuff happens".

No probs, don't worry about it mate. Cheers again. Often the stuff we see are similar, cheap and nasty box cutters, stanley's small kitchens knives, easy to get and easy to dispose of.

On the carrying a knive issue, if i'm in my bike kit there is always a letherman on my inside pocket, the amount of times that has got me out of trouble, but only with the bike:) It is in its case, inside a zipped pocket, would never think of it as an sd weapon, especially when I will have a helmet either on my head or in my hand. Like your 3 S's

Boru. · 30-08-2008 05:21PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I'm surprised at that 2% Paul it is interesting. However, carry out a stop and check outside my clinic and you will get a much higher figure.

Of course - it's a geographically based hot spot based on the nature of your work and those that require it. It's not indicitive of scoiety at large however. That's like going to a pro bodybuyilding contest and assuming therefore that the entire population is obsessed with fitness. Skewed demographics are not accurate of the whole.

Just look at my medical practice. I specialise in fertility and pregnancy. As such I see a lot of people that can't conceive naturally. That doesn't mean that everyone in Ireland is infertile. Though sometimes it may feel like that. It just means I work with the small percentage that are.

You work with the 2% carrying knives. That's all dude.

Nothingcompares · 30-08-2008 06:58PM

How would I deal with a knife attack?

Incredibly ambiguous question. However some of the principles I'd like to apply would be:

Keep as much distance as possible between me and the blade/person holding the blade.
Make a bolt to run at first opportunity
If put in a position in which the blade is already touching me be as compliant as possible and try to assess the likelihood of being stabbed using my own "common sense/street smarts/ intuition". If I feel I'm going to be stabbed one way or another, make an attempt to disarm knife guy by any means possible.

That means If someone has latched onto me from my blindside and has pressed the knife into my back or to my wrist and instructed me to follow them down a lane etc. I would. If it became apparent they were as interesting in harming me as they were robbing me I'd try and grab their knife hand/wrist as firmly as possible with my two hands, make space between us and react to what ever happens next.

What are my reasons for the above? How was my training influenced my reaction?

I've trained in a mixture of wrestling, judo, grappling, bjj and boxing along with MMA so I have a little bit of experience in dealing with close proximity attacks under stress with a limited bit of "random" conditions thrown in (varying size, shape, ability, aggression, strategy, attitudes). In other words, I believe a lot of different types of sparring will benefit me when I have to deal with a completely unusual surprise attack.

How will I react to a knife attack?

No Idea, maybe **** myself, freeze up, maybe panic, maybe do something stupid.

tallaght01 wrote:

Do martial arts ever use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

What Talla is really asking here is do self defence teachers have any research to back up the advice they give in seminars? With regard to the use of specific techniques/strategies the answer is no. And in fairness it's because I don't think data exists to provide for a legitimate survey/study. Although wasn't there some guy claimed to trawl through lots and lots of CCTV footage of violent incidents in streets/prisons etc. and came up with some principles and patterns?

tallaght01 wrote:

I'd imagine most instructors who've been in a knife situation haven't executed whatever technique they were using with 100% perfection.

You know if a self-defence guy was saying, use this block and strike combination if someone attacks you with a knife this way because on observation of 200 incidents, the 10 people who used this technique 7 people escaped unscathed would that make you more confident?

I think the the above statement is indicative of the Krav Maga type viewpiont that Tallaght has. It's a view point that there are counter techniques out there for specific attacks which can be learned and fine tuned in training and applied to varying degrees "on the street". I don't believe this type of thinking is realistic. I don't support the whole "shoulder throws and kick in the balls" methodology .

Nothingcompares · 30-08-2008 07:08PM

Boru. wrote: »

Just look at my medical practice. I specialise in fertility and pregnancy. As such I see a lot of people that can't conceive naturally. That doesn't mean that everyone in Ireland is infertile. T

Do you use RBSD or acupuncture to treat infertility?

Mark Hamill · 30-08-2008 07:53PM

Boru. wrote: »

2. I disagree here. You can be taught effective knife defence and gain enough profeicency to surivive substantially better than without training in less than 8 hours.

Just one point here, while you may be able to learn the techniques effectively in less than 8 hours, you will need many more hours than that to keep effective. 6 months after doing the 8 hour course you will have forgotten the moves if you don't keep practising, this is where the long training times are going to be needed.

Musashi · 30-08-2008 08:02PM

It's a view point that there are counter techniques out there for specific attacks which can be learned and fine tuned in training and applied to varying degrees "on the street". I don't believe this type of thinking is realistic. I don't support the whole "shoulder throws and kick in the balls" methodology .

The other end of the spectrum is Mick Coups' approach. Hit the other guy in the head, hard.

He's attacked you from behind, work towards hitting him in the head.
He's pulled a knife, hit him in the head.

You don't want to be worrying about what the other guy is doing or going to do. You should be making him worry about what you are going to do to him. Fastest way to restrain someone? Hit him in the head, a lot and as hard as you can. All the training is geared toward generating blunt force trauma to the other guys head, switch him off like hitting an emergency stop on a machine.

Kicking the legs, hitting the body is only done if the head is unavailable to strike, with a view to making the head available again. That is what is taught on the first class, and in every class to date. There are no more advanced moves. The advanced stuff is being able to hit the other guy (in the head) when you can't see, there are people in the way, your barged from behind by a second guy, there's crap all over the floor and Mick has had you do press ups to failure. There is more, but those are the main "Core" of the system, the rest is support skills to enable that core stuff.

john kavanagh · 30-08-2008 08:37PM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

3. Even if you are good you're chances of beating a guy who is armed with a bald is low.

i once fought someone armed with a bald...wasnt fun

tallaght01 · 31-08-2008 02:35PM

Nothingcompares wrote: »

You know if a self-defence guy was saying, use this block and strike combination if someone attacks you with a knife this way because on observation of 200 incidents, the 10 people who used this technique 7 people escaped unscathed would that make you more confident?

I think the the above statement is indicative of the Krav Maga type viewpiont that Tallaght has. It's a view point that there are counter techniques out there for specific attacks which can be learned and fine tuned in training and applied to varying degrees "on the street". I don't believe this type of thinking is realistic. I don't support the whole "shoulder throws and kick in the balls" methodology .

I think the fact that I'm asking questions like this of my style shows that I don't have a particularly entrenched "krav maga type viewpoint", no?

I appreciate that it's going to be expensive to gather data on various types of attacks. But, on the other hand, people make a lot of money teaching this stuff.

You say that particular counter attacks for particular types of attacks don't work. How do you know? How many knife attack situations have you been in? Boru's stats are very revealing. I know maybe 2 people who've been involved in knife related violence. And that's at age 30, living in tallaght.

I like krav maga. I love going training. But how do I know that when things really kick off, that it's going to help? I don't. But I've gone into with that knowledge, and I love the training nonetheless.

BUT there are people like you who have definite opinions about these things. And all I'm saying is that you can personally have no real idea about how effective your style(s) will be against a knife attack, compared to mine.

That's the point I'm making. I'm not having a go at you. I'm just saying that if people are going to put forward techniques with confidence, and instill their confidence into others, then they should have something to back it up with.

Roper · 31-08-2008 05:03PM

john kavanagh wrote: »

i once fought someone armed with a bald...wasnt fun

Was that me? For the ninetieth time it's not a bald I have it's a thin. Very dangerous though.

burtyburr · 31-08-2008 07:11PM

Whatever the statistics, training to be able to respond to a knife fight is hardly a bad idea. If you are engaged in a martial art anyway, ie check out the forum title, then getting in some realistic work isnt going to be a big issue.
Its a matter of personal opinion but I kinda like this bit of training advice from Steve Morris
"......But the most important thing about the heavy bag work came out of my experience when facing somebody with a knife. No matter what else is important, if you get into an exchange with a guy with a knife, it’s really a case of three strikes and you are out. If you get three strikes to the abdomen, technically speaking you’re dead. And three is the maximum!

If you decide to initiate an attack on a knife guy and overwhelm him with your shots, then you’d better make sure that whatever you’re hitting him with ****ing works. Because if he gets the chance to stab you even once, it could be fatal. Now, if you secure the knife hand and hit him with your other hand, then if those hits are not effective almost immediately, he’ll probably break free. And the implications of that are not good. So your strikes with that one hand have got to be extremely devastating.

If you decide to control the knife hand completely, you’d better make sure you’re able to break his ****ing arm. If you manage to disarm him, then be prepared to stab him with the knife, because if he’s really out for you he’s not going to be happy to remain disarmed and give up.

And here's another place where, if you are going to practice defence against a knife, it's a real benefit if you can generate the kind of power that can break an arm, because when you're blocking the knife arm you can potentially break it. This occurs when you've learned to deliver maximum power within a reduced time frame and close-range development space.

I'll give you a little tip on how you could do that. Go and find yourself a door frame. There are a lot of ways you can use this door frame to develop bone-breaking capacity, but here's one simple one. Press on the door frame with the bone on the outside of your forearm/wrist as in a middle-block type of move. Hold a strong isometric contraction for a little while. Then bring the arm off a few inches, and smash it back on again as fast and hard as you can. Repeat as many times as you can. In this way you'll get the kind of conditioning you need to break arms with when blocking/attacking the knife arm. You'll also strengthen the neural connections that develop that kind of power--those old motor units again. Getting the timing in a real life situation is different, but when you train yourself to work within a limited space and reduced time, then the timing in the applied situation becomes easier.

You can apply this door-frame training to lots of body parts and moves.

The main thing here is this. When I watch people doing knife scenarios, either pre-empting the knife attack or controlling the knife hand and striking in some way with a fist, elbow, knee, foot, head, or whatever, when you look at the strike they’re employing, there’s no potential for damage in it. They can’t hit. And the reason for that is because they’ve never trained to ****ing hit. They’ve probably trained on soft bags, or broken stacks of tiles in sheer.

So make like Dennis Jones and go get yourself a hard, heavy bag!....."
taken from http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/

gsxr1 · 31-08-2008 08:19PM

I know how I would feel if a knife was pulled.

But the fact that my murder was immanent I would run like a lad possessed or give the attacker exactly what he wanted such as my wallet.

being brave is no good if your dead.

has this type of thing happened to many? I was talking to a lad today about this. It may be a rare occurrence but not as rare as one thinks.

Happened to me as a young lad in Derry. Wrong religion for the neighbourhood i was in .

submissive behaviour and lots of running kept the bunch from cutting me .

was very very scary and I was buzzing like a bee for 2 hours after the sprint home.

vasch_ro · 01-09-2008 05:00AM

normally i just call the guys with guns and get out of the way ! quickly!

cHaTbOx · 01-09-2008 05:41AM

tallaght01 wrote: »

Do martial arts ever use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

Martial arts is not neccessarily a science, but surely we should have some way of reflecting on whether our techniques will actually work in real life?

Sorry had to shorten the post but yes martial arts does use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0FaxVO2Sns

There's a documentart that on History channel called "fighting science".
I have seen a few of these.
Aikido has good technique to combat knite attack
but even the best fighter may have to lose a finger or for trying too survive a knife attack.
I was at a seminare once were they got someone in a white shirt and asked someone to attack them aimlessly with a plastic knife with lipstick on.they were dead by the end of it for sure.Best advice RUN,otherwise keep your distance from the knife.

Black Swan · 01-09-2008 08:14AM

No matter how much SD training you have, the odds are you will get cut, even if you win the encounter. So if you don't want to risk getting cut (or worse), the best policy is to run when on the street. Now if someone was foolish enough to try and force entry onto our boat at night, well, they better be packing something more than a knife...

Tim_Murphy · 01-09-2008 08:46AM

john kavanagh wrote: »

i once fought someone armed with a bald...wasnt fun

But you lived to tell the tale? :eek:

Dave Joyce · 01-09-2008 02:02PM

Some interesting points but obviously one of the best options IS to run but its been pointed out what if that is NOT an option and yet there are people totally ignoring that!!

There has been some good advice/training methods mentioned/discussed but one of the things that disturbs me a bit is the lack of mention of entries. Unless the guy with the knife is a bit of a dope or very hesitant in attacking, I would caution against going head long into attacking him, as I would with the notion of just grabbing the knife hand without any kind of entry/opportunity.

Finally while the chance of been attacked with a knife are still rare, in Galway (which is all I'm talking about right now, can't speak for the rest of the country) in the last 2 months there have been 4 serious knife attacks and these were just the ones that I know of and wouldn't include glassing, screwdrivers or other utinsils used as blades. One was a domestic, one was the usual knifing outside a fast food outlet, one was a row between two foreign nationals in their house and the last one was an attempted robbery in a house which resulted in the home owner (an elderly person) been stabbed when he came upon the scumbag and DIDN'T confront him. As regards the incidence of individuals carrying knifes I believe its a more widespread practise than thought.

Boru. · 01-09-2008 04:00PM

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Some interesting points but obviously one of the best options IS to run but its been pointed out what if that is NOT an option and yet there are people totally ignoring that!!

There has been some good advice/training methods mentioned/discussed but one of the things that disturbs me a bit is the lack of mention of entries. Unless the guy with the knife is a bit of a dope or very hesitant in attacking, I would caution against going head long into attacking him, as I would with the notion of just grabbing the knife hand without any kind of entry/opportunity.

Hi David, first off I'm sorry to hear about the incidents in Glaway. I'm sure we all have stories of a violent incident outdside, some where involving someone. I can list of several that have happened to friends of friends and one to two that have happened to me personally (one of the reasons I got into the whole RB side of things). While these things are certainly unpleasent, it's memorable because of it's rareity, or at least I hope so. Again, while yes I agree there is mnore than reported I don't think it's reached the epidemic or common level some seem to project.

As for the question of entries they have been mentioned, although briefly by both myself and Odysseus. Criminal wepaon deployment is rarely straigh up and honest. Most often blades are concelaed, and deployed rapidly, in blind spot, from beyond, in crowded area's etc. Both Od and myself have been trained in a manner that very much makes one aware of typical ethnic and sociolpogical wepeon deployment.

However the reason I perosnally didn't focus on that here is becasue it is ultimately pointless. There are a near infinite amounts of situations and deployments possible. You CANNOT develop specific routines or techniques for each - in fact that is a huge problem both in TMA or RBSD. Teaching specific situational responses is niether practical nor realisitic. The advice I gave above follows principals designed to be applicable to any bladed weapon in any given cuircumstances. Hence it is non specific and can be incoperated in to any previous training background.

Martin25 · 01-09-2008 08:55PM

Just a little nick in the right place can cut an artery so take care.

Ballisong · 01-09-2008 08:56PM

However the reason I perosnally didn't focus on that here is becasue it is ultimately pointless. There are a near infinite amounts of situations and deployments possible. You CANNOT develop specific routines or techniques for each

Boru, can you just clarify this point for me, are you saying that it's pointless to train entering on a knife guy because ,

1.Your not going to see them coming?
2.There's no way to how to recognise draw points?

Boru. · 01-09-2008 09:57PM

Ballisong wrote: »

Boru, can you just clarify this point for me, are you saying that it's pointless to train entering on a knife guy because ,

1.Your not going to see them coming?
2.There's no way to how to recognise draw points?

I think I understand your question but I do want to clarify one thing - WHY in the name of god are you "entering on a knife guy"? He has a knife. Run. Don't be there. Unless it is your dierct job to stop the guy with a knife and you work in law enfrocement you should not be "entering". I NEVER recommend taking on a guy with a knife. It is just plain dumb. I don't care if your Jack Bauer it's dumb.

As reagards your questions assuming you are attacked by someone with a knife, (not attacking someone who has a knife), if you read through my posts in this thread I have consistently recommended realistic knife defence training. I write extensively on the subject and teach a comprehensive course in it, so I do of course believe that one SHOULD train for a assault with a knife.

However such training in my opinion should be realistic. This means understanding clearly certain issues.

The first being that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY you will be involved in a violent confrontation involving a bladed weapon. I believe I've discussed this clearly above.

With that said, and as Odysseus pointed out, and to which my comment refers, it is very unrealistic that someone intending to stab you or cut you, will infact walk up and say - "I have a knife, here it is, I'm going to cut you". Yes this does happen, particuarly in domestic situations, but then there are also a variety of precursors to such that should be paid attention to and hopefully a knife assault will be avoided.

Not many criminals will present you with a blade. If a knife is being used for intimidation, again it's pulled out in very close range not in a nice distance where you can clearly see where it is coming from.

Unfortunately few actually apply common sense to their knife training. A personal gripe of mine, in some TMA schools and in many blades systems, the techniques are very much, present attack, pause and counter. Present attack being the first problem. How many instructors actually teach realistic weapon deployment?

Realistic training means they may or may not have a knife and they or may not pull it. And they or may no be facing you at the time.

Most people intent on stabbing someone aren't stupid. They don't want you to see it coming becasue they don't want you to have the oppertunity to defend tehmselves. People with knives intent on doing you harm rarely act like James Bond villians and clearly expaling what they are going to do.

All I am saying is that situationally based or devised defences are unrealisitc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2T8vEqlTpg
This is funny, becasue it's true.

Apply principals and you help minimise the risk of serious or fatal injury. That's about it. No one wins a knife fight. It's not sparring. You most likely won't get away without getting badly injured or hurt. I teach damage limitation, how to reduce the risks of getting killed. That's all I go for, because if you f'd up enough to be attacked by a knife, then surviving it is a best case.

Fighting on it's own is very hard. It's not something I recommend. Fighting someone with a knife is near suicidal. Don't do it don't get involved. If you have absoultely no recourse and are forunate to see the blade coming, then there are principals and steps you can take to attempt to minimise the damage. If someone tells you they can teach you how to disarm a knife wielder be suspicious. If they tell you you can get away without injury be suspicious. If they tell you they can teach you to beat up someone with a knife intent on hurting you so you win, be very very very suspicious.

I leave disarming a knife weilding psycho trying to stick me to Jason Bourne and Hollywood. Which is fine, because I am not very likely to be attacked by a knife weilding maniac. And if I am on that extremely unlikely occasion, then I will use the principals that will give me the best chance of surviving, and not a set response that may or may not fit an attack.

You could spend the rest of your life studying a knife based art exclusively, all day everyday and learn every counter to every move, and still when you've had a few jars and you're pushing your way to the coat check through a tight sweaty mass of people in the local club, the asocial ass that you bumped into 2 hours earlier who took offense will just stick you as you push past. That's why I don't waste time learning dozens of complicated moves and sequences. In my opinion it's unrealistic. I just learn the principals that can be applied regardless of situation.

Again, I go into detail about this in the article. I'm not saying don't learn. Just apply commone sense and be realistic about what you are learning and why.

Ballisong · 02-09-2008 12:04AM

WHY in the name of god are you "entering on a knife guy"? He has a knife. Run. Don't be there. Unless it is your dierct job to stop the guy with a knife and you work in law enfrocement you should not be "entering". I NEVER recommend taking on a guy with a knife. It is just plain dumb. I don't care if your Jack Bauer it's dumb

Really? What if you find yourself in a situation where you are confronted with a bladed attacker and you are unable to escape, say your infant child is with you or your backed in to a corner are you really suggesting you just wait for him to attack you? Is the saying not, an offence is a good defence? If you do nothing but wait for him he is able to put 100% in to his attack making it far harder to defend. Where as if you can turn the tables and become the aggressor he has to think about defending himself and can not put everything he has in to his attack. I'm not saying it's easy to enter on a knife guy but you can't just start trading a blow for a puncture wound or a slash, now that's dumb. It's important to know how to enter safely and control your assailant securely before you can strike him, just grabbing the arm or the wrist anyway you like won't secure the blade, you need to know how to do that properly.

Unfortunately few actually apply common sense to their knife training. A personal gripe of mine, in some TMA schools and in many blades systems, the techniques are very much, present attack, pause and counter. Present attack being the first problem. How many instructors actually teach realistic weapon deployment?

Firstly, you can't just show someone a technique a few times have them repeat it a few more times and then ramp up the training to make it more realistic. It doesn't work like that no martial arts or RBSD systems do, at least not the good ones, it's like letting a beginner in Muay Thai spar on his first day. He doesn't have the correct responses ingrained in to his muscle memory to react correctly under pressure, also he'll still have his flinch reflexes because he's not used to an aggressive assailant coming at him hard and fast with a knife.

He needs to be shown the correct responses to an attack making sure he understands why he's doing what he's doing and then he needs to do a lot of repetitions of the move so it can be installed in to his muscle memory, then when it becomes his reaction you can make the training more realistic. Doing this to soon just means he's doing something half arsed at high intensity and will never make it a reaction and if you want to survive a blade encounter, which as you pointed out happens at a very close range,

again it's pulled out in very close range not in a nice distance where you can clearly see where it is coming from.

you need to have the correct reactionary responses as the movements are within your reactionary gap and will happen too fast to track with your eyes, so you also need to develop your tactile sensitivity, another good reason to get in lots of reps at a slower, training speed. These are just a few of the things that are developed by doing flow drills, which people who don't have a clue of what they are really for misconstrue and label them as a waste of time, it just shows their ignorance.

I'm curious to know how you train weapon deployment? We use a rigging system allowing us to holster many different blades on us while we train, so if a blade is dropped or stripped there's no pause in the training we just draw another blade, all the time tracking the different points of the body from which a weapon can be drawn. In my opinion and obviously I'm biased

, this is the best way to train weapon deployment, retention and how to track the body mechanics of a weapon being drawn on you. I've not come across many other people who train this part of a blade encounter and would genuinely be interested in how you train it realisticly?

Most people intent on stabbing someone aren't stupid. They don't want you to see it coming becasue they don't want you to have the oppertunity to defend tehmselves. People with knives intent on doing you harm rarely act like James Bond villians and clearly expaling what they are going to do.

Very true but people can't appear out of nowhere and suddenly stab you, unless they are a ninja of course and are majik

. If you suddenly find yourself being attacked out of the blue then you made a mistake earlier, you could of been day dreaming or deep in conversation either way just by being more aware of your surroundings and recognising a draw point should help prevent a such an attack.

You could spend the rest of your life studying a knife based art exclusively, all day everyday and learn every counter to every move, and still when you've had a few jars and you're pushing your way to the coat check through a tight sweaty mass of people in the local club, the asocial ass that you bumped into 2 hours earlier who took offense will just stick you as you push past. That's why I don't waste time learning dozens of complicated moves and sequences. In my opinion it's unrealistic. I just learn the principals that can be applied regardless of situation.

If your training correctly having a few beers in you shouldn't have a huge impact in how you fight, if it does you need to look at your training methods, unless your falling down drunk and then it's your own fault for getting in to that state and as I've said before that's a mistake you've made by not being aware of whats going on around you and not a flaw in your knife training. I've seen guys I know to be boxers and Thai fighters level guys on nights out with nice combinations while pissed. They were able to do it because they spent the time ingraining the moves on the pads, bags and shadow boxing, doing thousands of reps then when they were at the right level they tested what they had been shown under pressure by sparing and then by getting in the ring and fighting. Because of the time they spent doing those repetitions making those moves their reactionary responses they were able to do them and do them well while drunk. Weapon training is no different, other than being attacked with a knife is less common than being attacked by an empty hand assailant.

How would you deal with a knife attack?

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