How would you deal with a knife attack?

Martin25

Everyone has their opinion on this and one of my Instructors told me that some advice/techniques will get you killed.
He has been stabbed and shot and survived.
What do you think is the best way?

Havo

Run!!!

waterfordkick

just what i thought Havo ! run like fcuk !

Dragan

Depends entirely on how the situation arises.

I have had a few knife incidents on doors, one would have got me if not for my fellow doorman as the guy was coming at me from behind while i dealt with another attacker.

Another was face on, with plenty of time and room to see my attacker and the knife.

I don't think there is any quick and easy way to discuss a subject like this myself.

Hagar

waterfordkick wrote: »

run like fcuk !

Run like Usain Bolt he's faster than fuck.

Charlie3dan

Dragan wrote: »

Depends entirely on how the situation arises.


I don't think there is any quick and easy way to discuss a subject like this myself.

+1


However, I don't doubt there's some bad advice and techniques being taught.
Once again I give the example of the knife defence expert who advertises his courses saying "has been in 5 real knife fights and has the scars to prove it!"......my advice: avoid that guy for starters:rolleyes:

ColinJennings

I'd either run as fast as my little legs would take me, or say 'Ow, I seem to have a knife in me', or words to that effect. All I know from messing around is grabbing the knife is a bad idea and going to ground with a knife is even worse.

Naos

Run or monkey claw.

To be fair, as Dragan states, it is really totally dependant on the situation.

ryoishin

Put something between you and the blade, preferably distance.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dragan wrote: »

I have had a few knife incidents on doors, one would have got me if not for my fellow doorman as the guy was coming at me from behind while i dealt with another attacker.

Another was face on, with plenty of time and room to see my attacker and the knife.

Why were you (the door) getting attacked by people with knives?.

Dragan

Mairt wrote: »

Why were you (the door) getting attacked by people with knives?.

We were having a lot of trouble with a certain family in Limerick at the time who may or may not have wanted access to a certain club for possible illegal activities.

We were saying no and they didn't like that.

And only one of them had a knife in fairness.

darkman x

You should check out Karl Tanswells S.T.A.B program as it is reality based, that or sprinting would be my advice!

dlofnep

Run - If I couldn't run I'd try to keep my hands out to keep distance between us until I could peg it! I'd rather get cut on the arm that try get in close and get stabbed in the gut!

scuttery1

•Run,
•Throw stuff
•Use stuff
•Empty hand defense

Gorman

Street proven knife techniques

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NHcTM5IA4

SorGan

scuttery1 wrote: »

•Run,
•Throw stuff
•Use stuff
•Empty hand defense

shoes?:D

Mick Coup

I'm teaching a knife response seminar in a couple of days and one of the first subjects to address is the ability to be able to accurately represent an actual common-format knife attack, which even with a nylon training weapon can be truly harrowing to recieve. When a highly aggressive, highly mobile individual is steaming into you with continuous tight arcing slashes and repeated multi-angled stabs, using his free hand to foul any attempt you make to cover or defend, then you might catch the hand - same as you might win the lottery 10 years in a row.

If you do catch it, you'll be twice as lucky to be able to keep hold of it, unless the previously dynamic individual lets you for some reason - don't count on this being the case, knife attacks of that nature are attempted murders pure and simple, anyone with the committed vicious intent to repeatedly stab and slash you in such manner is going to have that weapon back in action in a heartbeat.

Literally anything is possible, but I look for what is probable instead - you get a lot further swimming with the current than against it!

Hitting an incoming cricket ball with the end of the bat is possible, but most people use the entire length instead to increase probability - if the ball wasn't moving that fast, and your safety wasn't at stake maybe there would be a few new methods appearing, but for the time being I don't forsee a change.... Apply this to the many 'chase the knife' methods often advocated - the only thing that is likely to get caught in this instance is you. Your realistic options are to cover up - by putting the largest available, most durable and expendable bodyparts between the threat and the targets, but this is not enough in itself as all cover degrades under fire, or else someone figures out how to get around it or through it. You need an 'end game' of some description. To play any defensive game you must be lucky over and over again - but player the part of the attacker requires you to get lucky just the once usually.

Training against half-hearted attacks, with flimsy assailants, is no better than doing nothing in my opinion - the false sense of ability and accompanying security is little short of suicidal. To be brutally honest, in my experience, the best and most effective responses have been from individuals who were not even aware that a knife was in play and simply got stuck in to beat and batter the other party all out. Nothing fancy, no seperate and specific system, just standard blunt force trauma applied generously to switch the assailant off at the mains. Sometimes, most times, these guys get cut and/or stabbed - reality check: there is no guarranteed method, style or system to prevent the other person touching you. If there was, why wouldn't you use it for unarmed threats too? You could make millions selling it to UFC fighters and the like, or be the world champ yourself!

Put a novice boxer in a ring with a pro, and even the pro will concede that the novice will probably land at least one punch, glancing blow or otherwise, and will certainly catch him on the arms more than a few times before being despatched. See the point I'm making? Add a knife to that scenario, and consider that a slash or stab is substantially easier to perform than a punch in that it doesn't require power and all the trappings that make punches hard to land effectively - not to mention the extra range it gives you - and you should get the idea.

In any real violent incident, when you are up against a committed aggressor, there is a simple unpleasent point to accept - you are standing in an upstairs window of a burning building and have to make one of two choices, you either stay and get burned or you jump and get hurt. There isn't a third 'fire goes out' option no matter how much you might hope and want there to be.

People often want that 'magic pill' that means you can easily fight giants, defeat multiple assailants, deal with knives and guns - there isn't one and I would you all to stop wasting your time looking for it if indeed you were, real fighting of any description is invariably an exercise in damage limitation. Start from here, this is reality. I've lost count of the times that I've been asked 'so what would you do do against....' and then some nightmare armed multiple attacker scenario is presented - only the deluded assume that I have some 'special' stuff tucked away, that I wouldn't use all the time regardless if it really were that potent, never mind just for the really nasty occasions!

Facing that active knifeman is truly a nightmare scenario - you either attack and maybe/probably get cut/stabbed in the process, or you defend and definitely/absolutely get cut/stabbed a whole lot more. Tough decision to make, going in on an armed man - but what's the alternative? Consider this before writing it off as being 'too dangerous' because although it may well be, not doing it is 'more dangerous' without any doubt in my mind.

Contrary to popular belief, knife wounds are actually low on 'stopping power' in a physical sense - victims tend to 'pyschologically stop' if/when they identify and register being wounded, up until this recognition occurs they still are able perform more than is needed to stop their assailant - and do so on a regular and documentated basis, without any training whatsoever. Stabbing victims often do not even realise they have been wounded at all - often the fact is pointed out to them after the event. You can't ignore the fact that some wounds can be immediately incapacitating, and almost instantly lethal, but most are not - even if seriously wounded you still have more options than if rendered senseless by a blow to the head.

The human body can endure horrific damage inflicted upon it - I've seen this many too times - and still survive, still prevail - but only if you don't give up. Getting wounded leaves you in a position to dig in to that hard-wired tenacity, fight back and not get wounded anymore, deal with or escape the situation and seek emergency medical attention. Getting wounded and giving in leaves you in a position to get wounded again and again, and again, resulting in a condition called 'adopting room temperature'.

Obviously not everyone with a knife is a murderous sub-human 'sewing machine' of course - knives are produced for show, to intimidate and posture with - often with no intent to be used, but don't base your training on this scenario - make the negative assumption of worst case, never be an optimist where high-stakes fighting is concerned!

The commonly cited 'run away' is the best response by far to a passive knife threat, where a weapon is brandished but not actively directed at you - but running from a close range active knife threat cannot be recommended, there is a good reason why you see all those gruesome photos of victim's backs riddled with wounds. Can you guarrantee that you can outrun someone, or if that is your only response option will your loved ones mind that you've left them behind?

The problem with general questions is that you can only accurately present general solutions - hence the endless 'what if' game that infuriates so much!

Mick

The Bored One

How would I deal with a knife attack? Badly. Very badly

tallaght01

Do martial arts ever use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

I know that might sound dumb, but bear with me.

In many other aspect of life, we look at data. We have people analyse past experiences, and decide what's worked well in the past and what hasn't.

Do any of the martial arts organisations ever do this? Has anyone ever questioned a lot of people wo've emplyed martial arts defensive tactics to evade a knife attack? Have they analysed which techniques fell to **** under the pressure of a real knife attack? And which techniques worked?

I'm not saying that would be an easy thing to do. It would be extremely time consuming, and expensive, but if someone is teaching these techniques, and making money from it, then surely there's an onus upon them to have something to back it up with.

For example, there's a very authoratative post above by Mick Coup about dealing with knife attacks. I don't mean any disrespect to him, but what proof does he have that any of this will work? Any one instructor will have such a restricted exposure to, say, knife attacks, that they couldn't possibly build up enough experience of what's effective to be able to formulate an opinion based on facts alone.

I do Krav Maga, and the IKMF claim their techniques are based on experiences in real life combat situations that members of defence forces etc have found themselves in. But I'm unsure of their data colection techniques.

I often teach first aid to the public. I'm confident that when I teach a class, I can give some stats and can reference some good data about what I'm teaching. I can prove that the stuff i teach works in most cases. When there's no proof, I tell the class there's no proof.

Martial arts is not neccessarily a science, but surely we should have some way of reflecting on whether our techniques will actually work in real life?

Does that make ANY sense? :P

Baggio...

Some good advise here.

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUcQMCLHGc&feature=related

Baggio...

I know I've plugged it here before. But considering were talking about counter knife material. And in my opinion, it's the best I've seen...

Have a look at some of the reviews.

http://www.urbancombatives.com/sharp.htm

Mick Coup

tallaght01 wrote: »

For example, there's a very authoratative post above by Mick Coup about dealing with knife attacks. I don't mean any disrespect to him, but what proof does he have that any of this will work?

No disrespect taken whatsoever mate - in fact this is actually the attitude that I try very hard to promote, as the lack of it has been the undoing of many of the so called realistic systems. When it comes to fighting, faith means nothing - proof is all that counts. I forego the usual long drawn out seminar introduction detailing dangerous exploits and tales of daring - after all these are often to try and secure some faith when it comes to the fighting stuff, but instead urge everyone to only believe me if I can prove it.

When there is no real outlet it can be very hard to prove what you teach, so reputation often substitutes for actual proven ability - but reputation counts for very little in my opinion, having been around for a while and realising that all too often the marketing effort far outweighs the product! Lack of outlet is the culprit here more often than not - another reason I advocate for adopting the various 'alive' and spontaneous training models used by combat sports. To this end I often don't even demonstrate techniques and tactics myself - safety permitting - as this can just serve to underline my skill level or that of my assistant, being heavily prepared and all - instead I use 'cold' participants that can prove the effetiveness and probability to impress the usable nature of the material. I want people leaving my training events impressed with their abilities and my material - not my abilities personally.

If the worlds top scientist produced a theory, nobody would say 'but that's so and so - he must be right' and just accept it on face value - people are still trying to disprove Einstein's theories to this day!

Also for something to be proven the results have to be consistantly replicated by varying methods of testing - I do not have any time for those that say 'this worked for me once' and then push it out as fully proven, nor do I have time for those that dismiss something because it once failed - if this were the case I would have nothing to teach as everything has failed at some time! If and when something repeatedly proves ineffective, then it can be discarded on it having a low percentage usability.

There is a whole stack of available research into violence if you know where to look - often the context of the study has to be taken into consideration as it can affect the findings - such as the US study into fights that go to ground, because law enforcement officers were the study group the results showed that the majority of their incidents endedup on the floor, but they were arrests and this is the primary position for applying restraint holds and handcuffs!

Knife crime statistics are not as useful as knife wound studies - these show common attack formats, and what can consitute a lethal wound etc. Often common sense is easily applied - more people live after being stabbed than die for instance, which is a good thing or Glasgow would be empty, which proves survivability.

Couple this with testing of various methods, repeatedly and under spontaneous pressure - this is the critical factor, the sudden and unpredictable action, not just the prepared drill, pressure testing must be quantifiable obviously or else it isn't testing - just exercise - but being prepared massively influences your success and creates dangerous positive assumptions.

What can't be forgotten is real world experience - our mileage may indeed vary, but I have been in enough - too many - actual violent incidents to understand what does pose a probable chance of success over and above what is merely possible.

As I said in the closing of that post, general questions do not lend themselves to accurate specific answers - so if there are any point or issue please feel free to call me on it directly and I'll get to proving it for you as soon as I have the opportunity.

Mick

tallaght01

Really interesting reply, Mick. particularly liek your thinking about the difficulties of applying raw data obtained from law enforcement situations to the teaching of civilians.

Also agree that sometimes watching a highly prepared experienced martial artist demostrate a technique can actually make the end result seem less attainable to a novice.

The reality is that you probably don't need to execute a knife defence perfectly in a real life situation to be get out of it in 1 piece. In fact, I'd imagine most instructors who've been in a knife situation haven't executed whatever technique they were using with 100% perfection.

I also find one of the main difficulties in training for knife attacks is that a lot of people who are acting as the attacker in drills tend to attack you with very stereotyped knife movements. They're almost like roundhouse punches, but with a wooden knife in their hand. I'd like to see more training where very erratic alternating knife movements are thrown at people, as I think that's more realistic in terms of what you're likely to get in a real situation.

Mick Coup

That is the strength of it mate, and there is a simple glaring fact here that many 'experts' miss - or ignore - and it's that completely untrained individuals survive knife attacks too. How could that possibly happen?

I spend the first portion of the anti-knife course that I teach bringing everyone up to speed with actual knife usage - and nothing esoteric at that, pure slash and stab food-processor/sewing-machine continuous attacks that are awful to face with even a training knife, not static or rooted to the spot perfect for Youtube, but dynamic and charging forward - with the objective being to murder the recipient pure and simple. The free hand will be used, the head will not be a sitting target to strike and the action will not freeze if a limb is grabbed, a single stab or slash hits home or any other reason whatsoever. Then we work from that point onward and every attack follows the same format, and if anyone thinks that they won't take a hit somewhere they have either got the fastest KO shot in the world, or else they can tell me what the weather is like on their planet because I'm moving there!

Even guys that take excessively large swings, and allow entry within the arc, are strenuously discouraged. The training progresses into full speed force on force drills, using protective helmets, neck and groin guards - but not the 'stupid suits' that were primarily designed for police baton training but have now become synonymous as 'state of the art' reality training and all you often see are flailing individuals hitting so ineffectually as to not require the suit in the first place! Heavy contact is a must - without it the knifeman can fully simulate his attack, but the unarmed response must be controlled to the point of being useless - add contact and you see what happens to the 'I got you there and there' once they take a shot to the head!

When the 'switch' is finally made into an offensive asymmetrical mode of thinking, it's certainly not uncommon to see the knifeman abandoning his attack completely and covering up against a barrage of shots - knife completely forgotten!

Some do leave disheartened - but for most it is the reality check that will actually give them a chance.

It simply cannot be ignored that an aggressive mobile individual armed with a knife has a hugely disproportionate advantage - that very little will truly equalise no matter what anyone tries to sell.

Mick

sage880

I guess it's always better to run. But if you were trapped somewhere and didn't have a choice here's two tips I've gotten:

1. If you have a heavy jacket, especially leather, you can use it like a shield. One person told me to hold it out in front of them as they close the distance to the knife attacker and another told me to wrap it around one arm and use that arm to parry knife attacks.

2. Use your belt as a weapon.

I was mugged in an ally once by a drunk with a broken bottle and this is what I did. My belt comes off fast and I grabbed it mid way and wrapped it around my right hand once. I then held the heavier metal clasp with my left hand. Then I had something to hold out in front of me to deflect attacks. You can then also swing the clasp hard like a ranged weapon. He wasn't very aggressive so I ended up pretty much beating him with that as he recoiled. When he fell I called the police.

A funny end to that story is I had my martial arts gear bag beside my car and I had two Kama right on the top in my bag. They weren't sharp but the edge was a blunt square so they're sharp enough on each side. And again, the end isn't pointed but it can do damage even though it's blunt. I forgot about them in the heat of the moment. It's probably for the best I didn't use them anyway because I didn't have to explain the belt!

One of the only two times I was mugged. The second time the thief ran by me and grabbed my wallet off the table I was sitting at in Fiji but he was so fast and knew the city so well I didn't even really see him much less catch him.

Anyway, take those two ideas for what they're worth!

phoenix-MT

haha all this brings back some funny memories....while workin with a mate, we were confronted by a angry fella with a machete who was "gunna cut us up real bad style" and all that.... last thing i remember is my mate just lost in and ended up chasing after him down the road with a traffic cone!! funny times

Tim_Murphy

Do martial arts ever use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

A huge percentage of martial arts training is very much anti-scientific; no testing of hypothesis, little/no critical thinking, no real analysis at all etc, hence the reason so much of it is crap.

Martin25

One thing I have learned is to try to keep my flesh off the sharp bit as one touch/slash will cut you badly. Then hitting him hard in the eyes eyes/throat/groin area is probably a good idea while grabbing the arm holding the weapon until he is unable to continue.
Another thing the x block or heavy blocking will not work against any serious attacker only in demos to impress the general public.

Boru.

Martin25 wrote: »

Everyone has their opinion on this and one of my Instructors told me that some advice/techniques will get you killed.
He has been stabbed and shot and survived.
What do you think is the best way?

I actually outline this completely in an upcoming issue of Irish Fighter - but the first piece of advice I give any of my students in a knife defence course is to be realistic. That doesn't mean just training realistically and appylying gross motor skill technqiues, but in understanding that you ARE HIGHLY HIGHLY UNLIKELY to be involved in a knife fight.

In the article I go into more detail than I can here but I go through the actual statistics of knife violence in detail both here and in the UK, and why most martial arts stuff is rubbish as your instructor said and I outline the knife defence technqiue that has now been adopted by the British Police. There are only 4 parts to it.

Grab.
Close Distance.
Takedown.
Escape.

It's very simple. Has been rigoruosly field tested and proven to be very effective. As such it has been taught and endrosed by everyone from the president of the united states protection detail to members of our own Garda Siochana.

Musashi

I've done the knife training with Mick Coup and it bloody hurt!

Try it ouf for yourself is the easiest thing. Have a mate "attack" you with a trainer knife, Sharkee or Nok trainers are good. If you get tagged they hurt a bit so it's an incentive to move your arse. Have your mate (one that doesn't do MA if possible, some big strong guy who doesn't mind hitting you) lace into you as you try to just block his attacks. How far does that get you?

Next, have him attack again and this time you can block and slap him inna face, does that work better?

The next bit we did under Micks supervision wearing padded helmets and neck braces for the "attacker". As soon as you see an offensive movement, your mate trying to draw his knife or waving it at you, puck the head off him. Make him forget a couple of Birthdays, see how keen he is on stabbing you while he's eating shots to the head.

We were careful to learn what level of contact got the knifers attention without busting them up, it was turn based after all! There was a lot more in the day we did, more drills with ever increasing demands and obstacles. I would recommend it as some of the best training I've done, get along for a look if the chance presents itself.

The best bit is that Mick doesn't show how well this works. He's a big guy and it's his subject, he should be able to make it work. Instead, he gets everyone to prove to themselves that they "survive" more often and get hit less using what he's taught us. I do mean hit less, not that you don't get banged up and bruised, even with trainers there is some risk of injury so gumshields and eye protection are more than a good idea.

Just so you get the idea here's a clip of Mick teaching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Syhm3Sq2Sk&feature=related

chrischance

Training against the knife is a must in every martial arts teacher's curriculum. In the present violent climate with gangs etc,. you cannot leave it out.
Running is a valid but facetious answer, it is not dealing with the question.
Training, training and more training is the answer. The more violent the training, the more effective it is. Repetition is boring but not when it is violent and painful and that is how it must be to be realistic.
You can't run if you've nowhere to run, ie,. prison or on a train or bus.

Tim_Murphy

chrischance wrote: »

Training against the knife is a must in every martial arts teacher's curriculum. In the present violent climate with gangs etc,. you cannot leave it out.
Running is a valid but facetious answer, it is not dealing with the question.
Training, training and more training is the answer. The more violent the training, the more effective it is. Repetition is boring but not when it is violent and painful and that is how it must be to be realistic.
You can't run if you've nowhere to run, ie,. prison or on a train or bus.

Nonsense.
1.The chance of a regular person living in Ireland getting attacked with a knife is quite low.
2.The amount of time training needed to get any good at knife defence would be quite high.
3. Even if you are good you're chances of beating a guy who is armed with a bald is low.

It's just not a productive use of a persons time, unless that person actually enjoys the process of training against blades. If they do more power to them, got for it but realise that is why you are doing it.

Boru.

Great response Tim, I both agree and disagree.

1. Yes, quite right. In fact based on the evidence and statistical report from the CSO, it works out at the chances of you being assaulted with a knife are less than 216,267 to 1.

2. I disagree here. You can be taught effective knife defence and gain enough profeicency to surivive substantially better than without training in less than 8 hours.

3. This depends on your definition of beating. If by beat you mean survival and escape then the odds are much much better with training. If you mean beat as is get into a fight with the knife weilder and win then yes I agree with you it's quite low. It's also a really dumb thing to do, why the hell would you engage someone with a knife? Escape is a much better option and much more likely a possability after basic training.

Odysseus

Boru, those stats would of course be for reported assaults. I would said alot go unreported. Especially where the crime was a robbery and the knife/sharpe implement is not actually used. I said this quite often here, buts its scary the amount of my clients that carry weapons, even the amongst the women.

Now you can said fair enough, if the weapon isn't used the person either runs or gives the person what they want. No big deal, part of my work is dealing with the psych impact of assaults in the work place, it can have quite a significant impact on a person.


Most of the guys I know who mug people [as you know I work with a distinct group] don't just show the knife and say give me your money, its a far cry from "Stand and deliver" its up close and person often to the throat, another ploy is a takedown from behind and shove a knife/screwdriver in the person's mouth. For a lot of people its going to take a lot to recover from that. But I'm talking to the converted with you.

Baggio...

Odysseus wrote: »

Boru, those stats would of course be for reported assaults. I would said alot go unreported. Especially where the crime was a robbery and the knife/sharpe implement is not actually used. I said this quite often here, buts its scary the amount of my clients that carry weapons, even the amongst the women.

Good post Seamus.

Well, whatever your decide to do - "train honestly", as Cestari would say.

Boru.

Very true my friend, and we both have the fortune of having a similar trainng background. We're both familiar with criminal weapon deployment as you mentioned, it's rarely the straight forward presentation.

As regards the stat's yes they are certianly based on reported crime, but again, one could look at the medical listings etc and extrapolate. Even assuming there was twice as much crime involving knives as reported it woudl still be a 100,000 to 1 shot that you would be attacked. Of course you could factor in geogrpahy etc, some places have a disproportionately large amount of stabbings etc.

As for the psychological impact I know and understand that all too well, and of course I leave that to your professional capacity.

On the aspect of carrying baldes in my research I foudn the following that may interest you...another excerpt from the upcoming article...

Based on the increase in Knife crime in London, the Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Tim Godwin said: "I would hate anyone to think that all young people in London carry knives”.

"We stopped 32,000 people in the main areas where we have concerns based on our intelligence. Out of those 32,000 searches, we've found 730 knives - so that's 2 in 100."

2% dude, in a far more violent city than Dublin. Now if you work with that 2% exclusively then of course you'd take that as indicitvie that a large amount of people carry knives, but they don't thank god.

In fact, in my experience, and here's an exact example of scoial conditioning, I met a lot of reality based martial artists. A large number fo them seem for some reason to be the only idiots I meet carrying knives. Does that mean that RB self defence guys all carry knives? No. Certainly not. It just means that I have met a few idiots in my time.

I don't care how you dice it, but the odds that any person will be attakced with a knife is VERY low. The odds that someone is carrying a knife is a little higher, but still comparitively very low.

The reason there is such a focud on it is disproportionate media focus - not becasue of a huge increase in every carrying knives and stabbing each other. Proper self defence, for me at any rate is about being realistic, and to worry about being stabbed all the time certianly isn't.

Martin25

I have seen a lot of Traditional type block and hit stuff in my time but against a person who knows what they are doing its gonna get you cut or killed. Others say expect to get cut but this is not the mentality to have, hit fast and keep hitting hard to any vulnerable area til its over.

Odysseus

I don't know about that Rob, and tbh I don't have an answer to the original question. However, it good to see a few posts here from eric, paul and mick. I don't post here often myself but its good to seesome familiar names still come here.

Odysseus

I'm surprised at that 2% Paul it is interesting. However, carry out a stop and check outside my clinic and you will get a much higher figure.

Musashi

I still have that light for you as well Seamus, sorry man!

I thought Jennie had posted it weeks ago, apparently it got "tidied" and only reappeared during the week. I have it packed up and will send it out on Monday morning. Should be with you arounf Wednsday mate, my apologies again for the delay!

Boru wrote:

I met a lot of reality based martial artists. A large number of them seem for some reason to be the only idiots I meet carrying knives.]

Ha! Possibly me! I usually have a penknife on me, it's a tool I use opening mail and slicing apples. I don't carry anything if heading out to the bars as the repercussions of actually cutting some one are something that I am not prepared to deal with. The only fight I was involved in where a knife was used (not by me) put me right off the use of sharp and shinies as problem solvers. Blunt impact trauma is less messy by a long way!

Of course the lads still living where I grew up carry whatever they want, generally slash hooks and hatchets, often kitchen knives and sometimes Stanley knives and hammers. One guy was known to carry a full size machete on him! Geography and socio-economic factors can really skew your chances of being in an altercation where edged weapons are produced.

Avoiding the three "S's" is a good plan (going Stupid places doing Stupid things with Stupid people), but as they say "stuff happens".

Odysseus

Musashi wrote: »

I still have that light for you as well Seamus, sorry man!

I thought Jennie had posted it weeks ago, apparently it got "tidied" and only reappeared during the week. I have it packed up and will send it out on Monday morning. Should be with you arounf Wednsday mate, my apologies again for the delay!





Ha! Possibly me! I usually have a penknife on me, it's a tool I use opening mail and slicing apples. I don't carry anything if heading out to the bars as the repercussions of actually cutting some one are something that I am not prepared to deal with. The only fight I was involved in where a knife was used (not by me) put me right off the use of sharp and shinies as problem solvers. Blunt impact trauma is less messy by a long way!

Of course the lads still living where I grew up carry whatever they want, generally slash hooks and hatchets, often kitchen knives and sometimes Stanley knives and hammers. One guy was known to carry a full size machete on him! Geography and socio-economic factors can really skew your chances of being in an altercation where edged weapons are produced.

Avoiding the three "S's" is a good plan (going Stupid places doing Stupid things with Stupid people), but as they say "stuff happens".

No probs, don't worry about it mate. Cheers again. Often the stuff we see are similar, cheap and nasty box cutters, stanley's small kitchens knives, easy to get and easy to dispose of.

On the carrying a knive issue, if i'm in my bike kit there is always a letherman on my inside pocket, the amount of times that has got me out of trouble, but only with the bike:) It is in its case, inside a zipped pocket, would never think of it as an sd weapon, especially when I will have a helmet either on my head or in my hand. Like your 3 S's

Boru.

Odysseus wrote: »

I'm surprised at that 2% Paul it is interesting. However, carry out a stop and check outside my clinic and you will get a much higher figure.

Of course - it's a geographically based hot spot based on the nature of your work and those that require it. It's not indicitive of scoiety at large however. That's like going to a pro bodybuyilding contest and assuming therefore that the entire population is obsessed with fitness. Skewed demographics are not accurate of the whole.

Just look at my medical practice. I specialise in fertility and pregnancy. As such I see a lot of people that can't conceive naturally. That doesn't mean that everyone in Ireland is infertile. Though sometimes it may feel like that. It just means I work with the small percentage that are.

You work with the 2% carrying knives. That's all dude.

Nothingcompares

How would I deal with a knife attack?

Incredibly ambiguous question. However some of the principles I'd like to apply would be:

Keep as much distance as possible between me and the blade/person holding the blade.
Make a bolt to run at first opportunity
If put in a position in which the blade is already touching me be as compliant as possible and try to assess the likelihood of being stabbed using my own "common sense/street smarts/ intuition". If I feel I'm going to be stabbed one way or another, make an attempt to disarm knife guy by any means possible.

That means If someone has latched onto me from my blindside and has pressed the knife into my back or to my wrist and instructed me to follow them down a lane etc. I would. If it became apparent they were as interesting in harming me as they were robbing me I'd try and grab their knife hand/wrist as firmly as possible with my two hands, make space between us and react to what ever happens next.

What are my reasons for the above? How was my training influenced my reaction?

I've trained in a mixture of wrestling, judo, grappling, bjj and boxing along with MMA so I have a little bit of experience in dealing with close proximity attacks under stress with a limited bit of "random" conditions thrown in (varying size, shape, ability, aggression, strategy, attitudes). In other words, I believe a lot of different types of sparring will benefit me when I have to deal with a completely unusual surprise attack.

How will I react to a knife attack?

No Idea, maybe **** myself, freeze up, maybe panic, maybe do something stupid.

tallaght01 wrote:

Do martial arts ever use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

What Talla is really asking here is do self defence teachers have any research to back up the advice they give in seminars? With regard to the use of specific techniques/strategies the answer is no. And in fairness it's because I don't think data exists to provide for a legitimate survey/study. Although wasn't there some guy claimed to trawl through lots and lots of CCTV footage of violent incidents in streets/prisons etc. and came up with some principles and patterns?

tallaght01 wrote:

I'd imagine most instructors who've been in a knife situation haven't executed whatever technique they were using with 100% perfection.

You know if a self-defence guy was saying, use this block and strike combination if someone attacks you with a knife this way because on observation of 200 incidents, the 10 people who used this technique 7 people escaped unscathed would that make you more confident?

I think the the above statement is indicative of the Krav Maga type viewpiont that Tallaght has. It's a view point that there are counter techniques out there for specific attacks which can be learned and fine tuned in training and applied to varying degrees "on the street". I don't believe this type of thinking is realistic. I don't support the whole "shoulder throws and kick in the balls" methodology .

Nothingcompares

Boru. wrote: »

Just look at my medical practice. I specialise in fertility and pregnancy. As such I see a lot of people that can't conceive naturally. That doesn't mean that everyone in Ireland is infertile. T

Do you use RBSD or acupuncture to treat infertility?

Mark Hamill

Boru. wrote: »

2. I disagree here. You can be taught effective knife defence and gain enough profeicency to surivive substantially better than without training in less than 8 hours.

Just one point here, while you may be able to learn the techniques effectively in less than 8 hours, you will need many more hours than that to keep effective. 6 months after doing the 8 hour course you will have forgotten the moves if you don't keep practising, this is where the long training times are going to be needed.

Musashi

It's a view point that there are counter techniques out there for specific attacks which can be learned and fine tuned in training and applied to varying degrees "on the street". I don't believe this type of thinking is realistic. I don't support the whole "shoulder throws and kick in the balls" methodology .

The other end of the spectrum is Mick Coups' approach. Hit the other guy in the head, hard.

He's attacked you from behind, work towards hitting him in the head.
He's pulled a knife, hit him in the head.

You don't want to be worrying about what the other guy is doing or going to do. You should be making him worry about what you are going to do to him. Fastest way to restrain someone? Hit him in the head, a lot and as hard as you can. All the training is geared toward generating blunt force trauma to the other guys head, switch him off like hitting an emergency stop on a machine.

Kicking the legs, hitting the body is only done if the head is unavailable to strike, with a view to making the head available again. That is what is taught on the first class, and in every class to date. There are no more advanced moves. The advanced stuff is being able to hit the other guy (in the head) when you can't see, there are people in the way, your barged from behind by a second guy, there's crap all over the floor and Mick has had you do press ups to failure. There is more, but those are the main "Core" of the system, the rest is support skills to enable that core stuff.

john kavanagh

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

3. Even if you are good you're chances of beating a guy who is armed with a bald is low.

i once fought someone armed with a bald...wasnt fun

tallaght01

Nothingcompares wrote: »

You know if a self-defence guy was saying, use this block and strike combination if someone attacks you with a knife this way because on observation of 200 incidents, the 10 people who used this technique 7 people escaped unscathed would that make you more confident?

I think the the above statement is indicative of the Krav Maga type viewpiont that Tallaght has. It's a view point that there are counter techniques out there for specific attacks which can be learned and fine tuned in training and applied to varying degrees "on the street". I don't believe this type of thinking is realistic. I don't support the whole "shoulder throws and kick in the balls" methodology .

I think the fact that I'm asking questions like this of my style shows that I don't have a particularly entrenched "krav maga type viewpoint", no?

I appreciate that it's going to be expensive to gather data on various types of attacks. But, on the other hand, people make a lot of money teaching this stuff.

You say that particular counter attacks for particular types of attacks don't work. How do you know? How many knife attack situations have you been in? Boru's stats are very revealing. I know maybe 2 people who've been involved in knife related violence. And that's at age 30, living in tallaght.

I like krav maga. I love going training. But how do I know that when things really kick off, that it's going to help? I don't. But I've gone into with that knowledge, and I love the training nonetheless.

BUT there are people like you who have definite opinions about these things. And all I'm saying is that you can personally have no real idea about how effective your style(s) will be against a knife attack, compared to mine.

That's the point I'm making. I'm not having a go at you. I'm just saying that if people are going to put forward techniques with confidence, and instill their confidence into others, then they should have something to back it up with.

Roper

john kavanagh wrote: »

i once fought someone armed with a bald...wasnt fun

Was that me? For the ninetieth time it's not a bald I have it's a thin. Very dangerous though.

burtyburr

Whatever the statistics, training to be able to respond to a knife fight is hardly a bad idea. If you are engaged in a martial art anyway, ie check out the forum title, then getting in some realistic work isnt going to be a big issue.
Its a matter of personal opinion but I kinda like this bit of training advice from Steve Morris
"......But the most important thing about the heavy bag work came out of my experience when facing somebody with a knife. No matter what else is important, if you get into an exchange with a guy with a knife, it’s really a case of three strikes and you are out. If you get three strikes to the abdomen, technically speaking you’re dead. And three is the maximum!

If you decide to initiate an attack on a knife guy and overwhelm him with your shots, then you’d better make sure that whatever you’re hitting him with ****ing works. Because if he gets the chance to stab you even once, it could be fatal. Now, if you secure the knife hand and hit him with your other hand, then if those hits are not effective almost immediately, he’ll probably break free. And the implications of that are not good. So your strikes with that one hand have got to be extremely devastating.

If you decide to control the knife hand completely, you’d better make sure you’re able to break his ****ing arm. If you manage to disarm him, then be prepared to stab him with the knife, because if he’s really out for you he’s not going to be happy to remain disarmed and give up.

And here's another place where, if you are going to practice defence against a knife, it's a real benefit if you can generate the kind of power that can break an arm, because when you're blocking the knife arm you can potentially break it. This occurs when you've learned to deliver maximum power within a reduced time frame and close-range development space.

I'll give you a little tip on how you could do that. Go and find yourself a door frame. There are a lot of ways you can use this door frame to develop bone-breaking capacity, but here's one simple one. Press on the door frame with the bone on the outside of your forearm/wrist as in a middle-block type of move. Hold a strong isometric contraction for a little while. Then bring the arm off a few inches, and smash it back on again as fast and hard as you can. Repeat as many times as you can. In this way you'll get the kind of conditioning you need to break arms with when blocking/attacking the knife arm. You'll also strengthen the neural connections that develop that kind of power--those old motor units again. Getting the timing in a real life situation is different, but when you train yourself to work within a limited space and reduced time, then the timing in the applied situation becomes easier.

You can apply this door-frame training to lots of body parts and moves.

The main thing here is this. When I watch people doing knife scenarios, either pre-empting the knife attack or controlling the knife hand and striking in some way with a fist, elbow, knee, foot, head, or whatever, when you look at the strike they’re employing, there’s no potential for damage in it. They can’t hit. And the reason for that is because they’ve never trained to ****ing hit. They’ve probably trained on soft bags, or broken stacks of tiles in sheer.

So make like Dennis Jones and go get yourself a hard, heavy bag!....."
taken from http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/

gsxr1

I know how I would feel if a knife was pulled.

But the fact that my murder was immanent I would run like a lad possessed or give the attacker exactly what he wanted such as my wallet.

being brave is no good if your dead.

has this type of thing happened to many? I was talking to a lad today about this. It may be a rare occurrence but not as rare as one thinks.

Happened to me as a young lad in Derry. Wrong religion for the neighbourhood i was in .

submissive behaviour and lots of running kept the bunch from cutting me .

was very very scary and I was buzzing like a bee for 2 hours after the sprint home.