Where is it accualy written in irish law that we can use legaly a electric assit bike

maidhc wrote: »

What is being referred to is the type approval directive:

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2007/B25612.pdf

and
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0024:EN:NOT

However I don't see how this precludes the requirment for insurance, which is already provided for in the irish road traffic act, which requires a mechanically propelled vehicle to have insurance.

A mechanically propelled vehicle is defined as:
"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—


( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

WOW
That link for attorneygeneral

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2007/B25612.pdf

what are these guys smoking to come up with this gobbilly ggok taken from the PDF

B25612.pdf wrote:

2 [629]
S.I. No. 629 of 2007
ROAD TRAFFIC (COMPONENTS AND SEPARATE TECHNICAL
UNITS) (TWO AND THREE WHEEL MOTOR VEHICLE)
REGULATIONS 2007
I, NOEL DEMPSEY, Minister for Transport, in exercise of the powers conferred
on me by section 11 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 (No. 24 of 1961), the
National Roads and Road Traffic (Transfer of Departmental Administration
and Ministerial Functions) Order 2002 (S.I. No. 298 of 2002) (as adapted by the
Public Enterprise (Alteration of Name of Department and Title of Minister)
Order 2002 (S.I. No. 305 of 2002)) and section 2 of the Road Traffic Act 2006
(No. 23 of 2006), and for the purpose of giving further effect to Directive
2002/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 March 20021,
as last amended by Commission Directive 2006/120/EC of 27 November 20062,
hereby make the following regulations:
1. These Regulations may be cited as the Road Traffic (Components and
Separate Technical Units) (Two and Three Wheel Motor Vehicle) Regulations
2007.
2. (1) In these Regulations-
“component” has the meaning assigned to it in Article 2(6) of the Directive;
“Directive” means Directive 2002/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the
Council of 18 March 20021, as last amended by Commission Directive
2006/120/EC of 27 November 20062;
“separate Directives” mean the Directives listed in Annex 1 to the Directive, as
appropriate, taking account of the scope and latest amendment to each such
Directive;
“separate technical unit” has the meaning assigned to it in Article 2(5) of the
Directive.
(2) A word or expression which is used in these Regulations and which is also
used in the Directive or a separate Directive has, unless the context otherwise
requires, the same meaning in these Regulations as it has in the Directive or
relevant separate Directive, as the case may be.
3. Where a new component or a new separate technical unit is placed on the
market, sold or intended to be fitted on a two or three wheel motor vehicle that
has been type-approved in accordance with the Directive, such component or
separate technical unit shall, if so required by the Directive or a separate
Directive at the time of fitment to such vehicle, conform to a type which has
1 OJ No. L124, 9.5.2002, p1
2 OJ No. L330, 28.11.2006, p16
Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in
“Iris Oifigiu´ il” of 14th September, 2007.

DUH !!!
where does it say in black and white that a electric power unit bike with motor power less than 250 watts does not need insurance licence tax or NCT

no wonder everybody voted no in the referundum if they can confuse the crap out of bikes what can do with real stuff like constitution or constapation



the eu link is roudabouts with roundabouts and makes Zebbidie the sping spong look clever



first you go there then click on link for two wheeled bikes

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Result.do?idReq=1&page=1

lots of crap about china dumping parts for bikes on EU
there is 54 pages of this crap example at page three so I gave up on that

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Result.do?idReq=1&page=3

eur-lex.europa.eu wrote:

# 32003L0102R(01)

This corrigendum does not concern the English version.

Bibliographic notice


# 52007AE0616

Opinion of the European Economic and Social Committee on the Promotion of cross-border cycle transport

OJ C 168, 20.7.2007, p. 86–90 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 52007XC0711(01)

Commission Notice concerning parties exempted, pursuant to Commission Regulation (EC) No 88/97 on the authorisation of the exemption of imports of certain bicycle parts originating in the People's Republic of China from the extension by Council Regulation (EC) No 71/97 of the anti-dumping duty imposed by Council Regulation (EEC) No 2474/93: changes in the name and address of certain exempted parties

OJ C 158, 11.7.2007, p. 6–10 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# C2007/140/50

Case T-120/07: Action brought on 16 April 2007 — MB Immobilien and MB System v Commission

OJ C 140, 23.6.2007, p. 29–29 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 32007R0691

Council Regulation (EC) No 691/2007 of 18 June 2007 imposing a definitive anti-dumping duty and collecting definitively the provisional duty imposed on imports of certain saddles originating in the People's Republic of China

OJ L 160, 21.6.2007, p. 1–7 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 52007PC0278

Proposal for a Council Regulation imposing a definitive anti-dumping duty and collecting definitively the provisional duty imposed on imports of certain saddles originating in the People's Republic of China

/* COM/2007/0278 final */

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf doc


# 22007X0330(02)

Information relating to the entry into force of the Agreement in the form of an Exchange of Letters between the European Community and the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu pursuant to Article XXIV:6 and Article XXVIII of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 1994

OJ L 90, 30.3.2007, p. 92–92 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)
OJ L 4M , 8.1.2008, p. 289–289 (MT)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 51993FC0092

Proposal for a Directive …/…/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of […] on the installation of lighting and light-signalling devices on two or three-wheel motor vehicles (codified version)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
doc


# 32004D0090R(01)

Corrigendum to Commission Decision 2004/90/EC of 23 December 2003 on the technical prescriptions for the implementation of Article 3 of Directive 2003/102/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council relating to the protection of pedestrians and other vulnerable road users before and in the event of a collision with a motor vehicle and amending Directive 70/156/EEC ( OJ L 31, 4.2.2004 )

OJ L 25, 1.2.2007, p. 12–12 (ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, NL, PL, PT, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 52006AE1567

Opinion of the European Economic and Social Committee on the Proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the identification of controls, tell-tales and indicators for two- or three-wheel motor vehicles (Codified version) COM(2006) 556 final — 2006/0175 (COD)

OJ C 325, 30.12.2006, p. 28–28 (ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, NL, PL, PT, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf

thanks for all the the info so far

Keep digging guys as I seem to be stuck knee deep in a can of worms here

I saw a neat add on motor from this site in Tiawan

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/newkits.htm

which you clip onto any bike a lot cheaper than ready made bike for sale here
about 400 euro for motor unit
and if you pick up cheap bike bobs your uncle
problem is the smallest motor is 300 watts so you would need to change the sticker to 250 watts if the at rule for 250 watts is correct

Me thinks it all shaping up to be you still need insurance road tax and maybe even a licence and the directive is just saying the quality of bikes allowed to be imported

And last guy I knew in ~2003 who brought a scooter gadjet type from china with him and which had pedals and who checked the details could not get a quote from any motor bike company insurance so he sold his bike to a Danish guy on ebay for a very very big loss and re-exported the bike to Europe where laws allowed these bikes

Since then I havent paid attension to the isue as I didnt need the bike transport but recently I decide i want to exit the car mode( 98 suZiki swift 55MPG in town 65 MPG high way ) and use a electric bike so as not to give those SOB oil companies a cent more than I have to
Yeah I am oil company hater seeing as the bastards are screwing up the west of ireland with their pipe lines and screwing the economy with high prices

The tax which is not the important issue like insurance is black and white
you need to pay 31 euros
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/pdf/motortax_rates_2008_en.pdf

only invalid electrical bike up to 400kg are exempt
(I presume wheel chair classes as electric bike for invalids )

not good if you still need tax chances are then you need number plate and still need insurance

If you cant use a e bike in Ireland what the feck is the green s doing to solve this issue


You can be sure the FF are stone walling to get kick backs from oil buddies

Derry

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by scab-e View Post
The minister for the environment (the dept responsible for collecting motor tax) stated a few years ago that pedelecs were exempt from tax.

Article is here.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking60.html

I think that definitely nails down the question of motor tax.

I don't know about insurance but this may be in the full article if anyone wants to pay for it.
I am very surprised that this has not being abused yet, All it takes is some manufacture to develop a very fast and high powered electric bike and fit a set of pedals to it to get through the law. Is there any limitation to the power of these things?

The EU rules suggest 250 watts rated max power

look in 2008 the tax form says black and white electric bikes 31 euros

the list of exemptions is only for invalid chairs and other types of eceptions but no mention of pedalecs or e bikes

So first thing is talk is cheap
The minister can say its just his opinion or he misunderstood the question whatever
The judge looks at the rules and says nope

you are in the wrong or he say you are in the clear

Until you see it written in Irish law black and white that you may drive a electric bike with a motor of less than 250 watts without third party insurance or road tax or driving licence or NCT there is a risk to be the twot standing in court saying to the judge well the minister said ....

I ant a expert in the law but it seems to me a shop can sell you a brand new car say to you you do not need insurance tax or licence or nct and when you get stopped and brought to court the judge will say

Yes the shop is guilty of another class of offence and will be dealt with in due course (probably a minor fine )

However you are the driver and life is a bitch and you go down and pay the big fine as the law is the law


Found this from gaurda traffic corps

http://www.garda.ie/faq.html#G8

garda.ie wrote:

What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters

The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.

Unfortunaly the Gaurda are the enforces of the law they don't make or invent ithe law and they don't interpert the law

I doesn't say in black and white that it is legal
So the problem is back to a judge who would interpert the law unless i can find exactly where it says it is legal to drive a pedalec or ebike without insurance tax a licence and NCT

it gets back to the original info from SteveC

SteveC wrote:

A mechanically propelled vehicle is defined as:
"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—


( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

most pedalecs nowadays have a switch off mode so that you can cruise without any pedaling making them a e-bike especially the scooter types

Once the bike goes into this e-bike mode or even has this mode ability installed onit it becomes a MPV


Derry

blorg wrote: »

Derry, there is the simple matter of practicality, I doubt sincerely that anyone would be stopped never mind prosecuted for riding a typical pedal assist electric bike.

The only place where this starts to cause issues were if you were in an accident and the other side then decides to take a tack on the status of what you were on at the time.

I thought the Germans were bad with their rules and opt out clauses and you go to jail as you should know these things
But this one beats the Germans hands down if blorg;57059686 is correct

Basically your whizzing along on your electric bike and you bop a pedistrian who sues you for injuries recieived

If your unlucky and it goes to court the risks are the you being the ejit in front of the judge he will say one of several things

Lifes a bitch and flatulace remarks from dip stick ministers don't count .
Bike shop brochures which interpet the law are frilly wall paper.
But the law is the written down and the law is the law and down you go and you pay all the damages and license get endorsed for so many points whatever


Or maybe judge will say yes there exists a territory where pedelec with ebike facility below 250 watts are within the Irish law as the EU directive overwrote the Irish law

However you still got to pay all the damages you caused

Lesson from that is you are going to pay for the rest of your life from your pay cheques if you crippled the pedistrian and you have no insurance policy for this activity

if no insurance company exists that ensures that activity you would be very foolish to partake of that activity espesialy house or property owners who can lose everything they own if the costs go that high

Or maybe judge will say yes there exists a territory where pedelec with ebike facility below 250 watts are within the Irish law as the EU directive overwrote the Irish law

Also the state as a result pays out all damages to victims from this E bike activity
and so the activity does not require any insurance tax NCT or license and no points from license to lose

Myriads of varaitions can exist but those look the more likely to me in the absence of a black and white written down in the law


So the government can go about saying sure on your bikes do what you like but don't come crying to us when the judge throws the book at you


The Gaurda cannot turn a blind eye to a request for a court case for prosicution of a ebike driver as it is not their job to interpet the law merely enforce the law


Anyway only those short political life span green plebs ride those e bike things
A good dyed in the wool FF wont be seen dead riding a chicken chaser when the big new limos are falling like ripe plums from the government coffers

So the FF can say nah nah nah nah we fooled you green wet backs thanks to what we learned of the Germans how to speak in legal waffle and forked Tongues

So if you want to risk being a test case for the system to establish your green cred on your e-bike thingy off you go run over a frail old granny and test out the legal waffle we the government invented

Thats my interpetaion of what things look like until I see the exact law written down in black and white

But if some legal beagles who know how directives and legal waffle works know better shoot

Al I want to know is what to do not to lose my shirt riding a E bike

Looking at the original response from Gaurda site gives you an idea how they handle a curved ball hot potatoe sent winging to them

They throw back another curved ball and us dip sticks in the middle for this green versus FF game plan are the chicken chasers in the middle for this mess
http://www.garda.ie/faq.html#G8

garda.ie wrote:

What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters

The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.

In Spain I know from friends it simple the police often stop and check the e bikes and under 50cc moped bikes

If they have pedals on it no problems but no pedals hell to pay so nobody dares remove the pedals from E-bikes even if they never use them

When I lived in France and always commuted every where with my Cioa Piago 49cc mopeds the rules were simple

49cc and less speeds than (~30MPH) 50KPH were classed different from cars or push bikes

I didn't need road tax number plates but I did need insurance ~10 euros per year and a helmet
I got stiffed once for a fine 30 euros for not wearing a helmet and helmets are hot things in summer on slow moped bikes

Yo also could lose points from car license and get fines some quite severe for big traffic violtaitons including loss of car motorbike license for D&D whilst driving a moped

Fines existed for mechanical diffient bikes like worn tyres or bad brakes but no NCT needed
(You were expected to maintain the road worthy features of the moped )

French police were not big on the pedals issue so lots of mopeds or scooters with 49cc ditched the pedals

Also if you did lose car license you could still commute on mopeds below 49cc or chicken chasers or e bike things with no license needed so popular transport for car license user who were on one or more year endorsements for something


Derry

Having been involved with some accidents both on the road and in shopping center car parks where the car got writtten off most of time the law is completly weird and not what you think it should be

Its now more like Italy where you hire a load of witnesses and prove the guy reversed into you and get off scot free from rear ending the guy in front of you

Best I can tell there is no risks to tell porkies lies in the Irish court law system so its completely crap system open to massive abuse

Anyway in an accident where the other guy is in the wrong the best stratagy is to prove the Innocent party has broken some minor regulation
That works very in favour to maybe getting off scot free instead of being 100% in the wrong

So if a car driver bops a E bike user it is possibly in his interests to prove that a E bike user should be obliged to have Insurance licence and road tax so as to shift the proof of guilt to the E bike user

And if the judge decides the E bike user should have insurance licence tax etc then legaly it becomes a wreckless uninsured motorised vehicle E Bike with a equaly reckless driver who should not be on the road in the first place was in collision with another road user

It might end up 50% your fault 50% his fault or even 100% your fault and you pick up the tab and you get fined possibily imprisoned and lose points to the licence for no third party insurance for your E bike

Derry

blorg wrote: »

Eh, Derry, that is not how the law works.

So please then tell me then how the law works if your more expert in this subject

Derry

I read today in the evening press that sedgeway electric drive gizzmo that can go 10 miles at 20KPH are not street legal

Therfore it confims that any bike with electric drive that issnt pedal assist and exceeds 15KPH isnt street legal
Therefore pedal assist bikes with a button where you can switch off pedal assist and just use electric drive without pedaling the bike pedal are also not street legal

That means that they require insurance third party and some method of registration for licence plates to get insurance

Prove me wrong but I bet you cant

I checked with lots of places

Greens are waste of space if they cant even get greener electric bike past the regime in power

Derry