Where is it accualy written in irish law that we can use legaly a electric assit bike

derry

Where is it accualy written in Irish law that we can use legaly a electric assit bike

I am searching to find where it says that it is legal to use electric pedal assist bikes and do not require insurance tax nct and number plates

Is it just ablind eye turned to the normal rules under the electric wheel chair rule where wheel chairs that do less than 15KPH are not subject to the normal rules
( even that rule I don't know exists for sure )


The last rule I knew for sure was any mechanically propelled vehicile as in steam electric or internal cumbustion was subject all the same rigours of insurance tax registration as any car

I am trying to verify if this info is true or a fabrication

http://www.cibike.ie/faq.htm

cibike.ie wrote:

Q. Do I need a driving license, insurance or road tax?
A. No, you don’t. According to Irish and European law, electric bikes that use the pedal assist method are classified as bicycles, not mechanically propelled vehicles. There is no need for the extra expense associated with other forms of road transport. There are also no NCT requirements either. For all intensive purposes, it’s simply a bicycle that requires very little pedaling to travel 25kmh saving you time and hassle.

Not picking on this shop especialy as i went to several shops but I dont know are they just a hard sell telling porkys or they really know thier facts

I like to see law paper whatever number xxx of certian date sub section xxx blah blah electric assistst bike is legal without insurance tax licence

I remain unsure no reference to exact law has been shown to me

There is two types of law changes from Europe

A directive which becomes law immeadiltly and another thingy where the country has several years to introduce the change and may sometimes alter the rules a tad to suit local conditions and sometime they never bring in the change
What class off law is the electric bike law for Ireland


So I remain tottaly not wanting to fight my terretiory with a garda who stops me sober or drunk to prove my case witha electric drive bike and then get 6 points docked for not being insured

And the judge has no time for well the shop said

EDIT
I did do some searches in relevant sites like rules of the road etc and other sites and the search option on the boards site but drew a blank
however when posted then the other similar threads poped up and this one might have some info

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54069024&postcount=8

dlofnep wrote:

Sorry to revive an old topic - but you don't require tax or insurance if the electric bike has pedals, goes no faster than 15MPH and the engine is no greater than 250W.

Quote:
Electrically-assisted cycles are usually classified as either pedelecs or e-bikes. Under European Union regulations adopted in the UK in June 2003, only power-assisted cycles meeting the pedelec classification are considered to be pedal cycles. The maximum power allowed in the European Union for (pedelec) electric bicycles is 250 W, with a maximum assisted speed of 25 km/h.[38]. To meet the pedelec specification the electric motor must be activated by the rider's pedalling effort and the power must cut out completely whenever the rider stops pedalling. Control of the motor by pedalling is often the key difference between a pedelec and e-bike.

Earlier UK regulations required that the motor has an average power output limited to 200 W (250 W for tricycles and tandems) and weight limited to 40 kg (60 kg for tricycles and tandems). These regulations must come in-line with the EU regulations by (find deadline). For models sold before June 2003, e-bikes conforming to the speed, weight and power limits may also be considered pedal cycles. Electric bikes with higher power outputs, or those not meeting the "pedelec" definition are now treated as motorcycles and require a license.

so how do I know ireland has ADOPTED the same european regulation

extra edit

found this site from outside irealnd
http://connectedcities.eu/showcases/pedelec.html

infers that its a EU directive
man it likes swimming in legal crap to figure this out

this site might be more exact
http://www.extraenergy.org/main.php?language=en&category=information&subcateg=39&id=384

Derry

peasant

giving this a bit of a bump, as I'm also interested in the answer

Steve

I've looked this up before - afair, they have to be taxed / insured like other MPV's

I'll dig again and report.:)

chris85

Ok used to work in bike shop and knew a bit about them. The bike you are describing is a pedal assisted bike as you said. The term pedal assisted is the key term. Since it only assists you while you are pedaling then it is not self propelled and does not require tax and insurance. You do the pedalling and it gives you a boost.

If it was self propelled which there are a good few bicycles that are, then it does require tax and insurance as far as i am aware. I did check this outa few years ago.

The key thing is the bike is not self propelled. But beware as there are many electric bicycles that are completely self propelled.

maidhc

What is being referred to is the type approval directive:

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2007/B25612.pdf

and
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0024:EN:NOT

However I don't see how this precludes the requirment for insurance, which is already provided for in the irish road traffic act, which requires a mechanically propelled vehicle to have insurance.

A mechanically propelled vehicle is defined as:
"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—


( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

EternalSunshine

I have been thinking of getting an electric assist bike now for a while. This is the one i would get.


http://www3.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/Products/Electric/All/Details/888-S8CON-Continental

peasant

So ...if one had to pay tax and insurance ...how much would it be, roughly ?

Run_to_da_hills

EternalSunshine wrote: »

I have been thinking of getting an electric assist bike now for a while. This is the one i would get.


http://www3.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/Products/Electric/All/Details/888-S8CON-Continental

Is there an agent for Schwinn in Ireland?

Slightly off topic, Can Segways be used on a public road in Ireland? These are classed as electric scooters. http://www.segway.ie/

EternalSunshine

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is there an agent for Schwinn in Ireland?

Slightly off topic, Can Segways be used on a public road in Ireland? These are classed as electric scooters. http://www.segway.ie/

As far as i remember, the closest agent is in the North.

Steve

maidhc wrote: »

What is being referred to is the type approval directive:

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2007/B25612.pdf

and
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0024:EN:NOT

However I don't see how this precludes the requirment for insurance, which is already provided for in the irish road traffic act, which requires a mechanically propelled vehicle to have insurance.

A mechanically propelled vehicle is defined as:
"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—


( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

That's what I was gonna look for - thanks maidhc.

peasant wrote: »

So ...if one had to pay tax and insurance ...how much would it be, roughly ?

AFAIK, tax is €31/year, don't know about insurance.

derry

maidhc wrote: »

What is being referred to is the type approval directive:

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2007/B25612.pdf

and
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002L0024:EN:NOT

However I don't see how this precludes the requirment for insurance, which is already provided for in the irish road traffic act, which requires a mechanically propelled vehicle to have insurance.

A mechanically propelled vehicle is defined as:
"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—


( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

WOW
That link for attorneygeneral

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2007/B25612.pdf

what are these guys smoking to come up with this gobbilly ggok taken from the PDF

B25612.pdf wrote:

2 [629]
S.I. No. 629 of 2007
ROAD TRAFFIC (COMPONENTS AND SEPARATE TECHNICAL
UNITS) (TWO AND THREE WHEEL MOTOR VEHICLE)
REGULATIONS 2007
I, NOEL DEMPSEY, Minister for Transport, in exercise of the powers conferred
on me by section 11 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 (No. 24 of 1961), the
National Roads and Road Traffic (Transfer of Departmental Administration
and Ministerial Functions) Order 2002 (S.I. No. 298 of 2002) (as adapted by the
Public Enterprise (Alteration of Name of Department and Title of Minister)
Order 2002 (S.I. No. 305 of 2002)) and section 2 of the Road Traffic Act 2006
(No. 23 of 2006), and for the purpose of giving further effect to Directive
2002/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 March 20021,
as last amended by Commission Directive 2006/120/EC of 27 November 20062,
hereby make the following regulations:
1. These Regulations may be cited as the Road Traffic (Components and
Separate Technical Units) (Two and Three Wheel Motor Vehicle) Regulations
2007.
2. (1) In these Regulations-
“component” has the meaning assigned to it in Article 2(6) of the Directive;
“Directive” means Directive 2002/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the
Council of 18 March 20021, as last amended by Commission Directive
2006/120/EC of 27 November 20062;
“separate Directives” mean the Directives listed in Annex 1 to the Directive, as
appropriate, taking account of the scope and latest amendment to each such
Directive;
“separate technical unit” has the meaning assigned to it in Article 2(5) of the
Directive.
(2) A word or expression which is used in these Regulations and which is also
used in the Directive or a separate Directive has, unless the context otherwise
requires, the same meaning in these Regulations as it has in the Directive or
relevant separate Directive, as the case may be.
3. Where a new component or a new separate technical unit is placed on the
market, sold or intended to be fitted on a two or three wheel motor vehicle that
has been type-approved in accordance with the Directive, such component or
separate technical unit shall, if so required by the Directive or a separate
Directive at the time of fitment to such vehicle, conform to a type which has
1 OJ No. L124, 9.5.2002, p1
2 OJ No. L330, 28.11.2006, p16
Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in
“Iris Oifigiu´ il” of 14th September, 2007.

DUH !!!
where does it say in black and white that a electric power unit bike with motor power less than 250 watts does not need insurance licence tax or NCT

no wonder everybody voted no in the referundum if they can confuse the crap out of bikes what can do with real stuff like constitution or constapation



the eu link is roudabouts with roundabouts and makes Zebbidie the sping spong look clever



first you go there then click on link for two wheeled bikes

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Result.do?idReq=1&page=1

lots of crap about china dumping parts for bikes on EU
there is 54 pages of this crap example at page three so I gave up on that

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Result.do?idReq=1&page=3

eur-lex.europa.eu wrote:

# 32003L0102R(01)

This corrigendum does not concern the English version.

Bibliographic notice


# 52007AE0616

Opinion of the European Economic and Social Committee on the Promotion of cross-border cycle transport

OJ C 168, 20.7.2007, p. 86–90 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 52007XC0711(01)

Commission Notice concerning parties exempted, pursuant to Commission Regulation (EC) No 88/97 on the authorisation of the exemption of imports of certain bicycle parts originating in the People's Republic of China from the extension by Council Regulation (EC) No 71/97 of the anti-dumping duty imposed by Council Regulation (EEC) No 2474/93: changes in the name and address of certain exempted parties

OJ C 158, 11.7.2007, p. 6–10 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# C2007/140/50

Case T-120/07: Action brought on 16 April 2007 — MB Immobilien and MB System v Commission

OJ C 140, 23.6.2007, p. 29–29 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 32007R0691

Council Regulation (EC) No 691/2007 of 18 June 2007 imposing a definitive anti-dumping duty and collecting definitively the provisional duty imposed on imports of certain saddles originating in the People's Republic of China

OJ L 160, 21.6.2007, p. 1–7 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, MT, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 52007PC0278

Proposal for a Council Regulation imposing a definitive anti-dumping duty and collecting definitively the provisional duty imposed on imports of certain saddles originating in the People's Republic of China

/* COM/2007/0278 final */

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf doc


# 22007X0330(02)

Information relating to the entry into force of the Agreement in the form of an Exchange of Letters between the European Community and the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu pursuant to Article XXIV:6 and Article XXVIII of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 1994

OJ L 90, 30.3.2007, p. 92–92 (BG, ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, NL, PL, PT, RO, SK, SL, FI, SV)
OJ L 4M , 8.1.2008, p. 289–289 (MT)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 51993FC0092

Proposal for a Directive …/…/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of […] on the installation of lighting and light-signalling devices on two or three-wheel motor vehicles (codified version)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
doc


# 32004D0090R(01)

Corrigendum to Commission Decision 2004/90/EC of 23 December 2003 on the technical prescriptions for the implementation of Article 3 of Directive 2003/102/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council relating to the protection of pedestrians and other vulnerable road users before and in the event of a collision with a motor vehicle and amending Directive 70/156/EEC ( OJ L 31, 4.2.2004 )

OJ L 25, 1.2.2007, p. 12–12 (ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, NL, PL, PT, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf


# 52006AE1567

Opinion of the European Economic and Social Committee on the Proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the identification of controls, tell-tales and indicators for two- or three-wheel motor vehicles (Codified version) COM(2006) 556 final — 2006/0175 (COD)

OJ C 325, 30.12.2006, p. 28–28 (ES, CS, DA, DE, ET, EL, EN, FR, IT, LV, LT, HU, NL, PL, PT, SK, SL, FI, SV)

Bibliographic notice
Bibliographic notice + Text (bilingual display)
html pdf

thanks for all the the info so far

Keep digging guys as I seem to be stuck knee deep in a can of worms here

I saw a neat add on motor from this site in Tiawan

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/newkits.htm

which you clip onto any bike a lot cheaper than ready made bike for sale here
about 400 euro for motor unit
and if you pick up cheap bike bobs your uncle
problem is the smallest motor is 300 watts so you would need to change the sticker to 250 watts if the at rule for 250 watts is correct

Me thinks it all shaping up to be you still need insurance road tax and maybe even a licence and the directive is just saying the quality of bikes allowed to be imported

And last guy I knew in ~2003 who brought a scooter gadjet type from china with him and which had pedals and who checked the details could not get a quote from any motor bike company insurance so he sold his bike to a Danish guy on ebay for a very very big loss and re-exported the bike to Europe where laws allowed these bikes

Since then I havent paid attension to the isue as I didnt need the bike transport but recently I decide i want to exit the car mode( 98 suZiki swift 55MPG in town 65 MPG high way ) and use a electric bike so as not to give those SOB oil companies a cent more than I have to
Yeah I am oil company hater seeing as the bastards are screwing up the west of ireland with their pipe lines and screwing the economy with high prices

The tax which is not the important issue like insurance is black and white
you need to pay 31 euros
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/pdf/motortax_rates_2008_en.pdf

only invalid electrical bike up to 400kg are exempt
(I presume wheel chair classes as electric bike for invalids )

not good if you still need tax chances are then you need number plate and still need insurance

If you cant use a e bike in Ireland what the feck is the green s doing to solve this issue


You can be sure the FF are stone walling to get kick backs from oil buddies

Derry

maidhc

I don't think you will ever get a definitive answer as to whether your electrically assisted bikes are legal or illegal.

I think in the UK the settled opinion is that if you need to pedal them (e.g. if they have some sort of mechanism that prevents them operating solely under their own power) they are classified as bikes.

I'm not aware of us having anything similar, and while they are excluded from getting type approval, it doesn't mean "e bikes" are not motor vehicles for the purposes of insurance and drink driving specifically. Indeed the rules of the road apply to bicycles, albeit to a limited degree with minute penalties.

scab-e

The minister for the environment (the dept responsible for collecting motor tax) stated a few years ago that pedelecs were exempt from tax.

Article is here.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2002/0304/breaking60.html

I think that definitely nails down the question of motor tax.

I don't know about insurance but this may be in the full article if anyone wants to pay for it.

Run_to_da_hills

scab-e wrote: »

The minister for the environment (the dept responsible for collecting motor tax) stated a few years ago that pedelecs were exempt from tax.

Article is here.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2002/0304/breaking60.html

I think that definitely nails down the question of motor tax.

I don't know about insurance but this may be in the full article if anyone wants to pay for it.

I am very surprised that this has not being abused yet, All it takes is some manufacture to develop a very fast and high powered electric bike and fit a set of pedals to it to get through the law. Is there any limitation to the power of these things?

derry

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by scab-e View Post
The minister for the environment (the dept responsible for collecting motor tax) stated a few years ago that pedelecs were exempt from tax.

Article is here.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking60.html

I think that definitely nails down the question of motor tax.

I don't know about insurance but this may be in the full article if anyone wants to pay for it.
I am very surprised that this has not being abused yet, All it takes is some manufacture to develop a very fast and high powered electric bike and fit a set of pedals to it to get through the law. Is there any limitation to the power of these things?

The EU rules suggest 250 watts rated max power

look in 2008 the tax form says black and white electric bikes 31 euros

the list of exemptions is only for invalid chairs and other types of eceptions but no mention of pedalecs or e bikes

So first thing is talk is cheap
The minister can say its just his opinion or he misunderstood the question whatever
The judge looks at the rules and says nope

you are in the wrong or he say you are in the clear

Until you see it written in Irish law black and white that you may drive a electric bike with a motor of less than 250 watts without third party insurance or road tax or driving licence or NCT there is a risk to be the twot standing in court saying to the judge well the minister said ....

I ant a expert in the law but it seems to me a shop can sell you a brand new car say to you you do not need insurance tax or licence or nct and when you get stopped and brought to court the judge will say

Yes the shop is guilty of another class of offence and will be dealt with in due course (probably a minor fine )

However you are the driver and life is a bitch and you go down and pay the big fine as the law is the law


Found this from gaurda traffic corps

http://www.garda.ie/faq.html#G8

garda.ie wrote:

What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters

The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.

Unfortunaly the Gaurda are the enforces of the law they don't make or invent ithe law and they don't interpert the law

I doesn't say in black and white that it is legal
So the problem is back to a judge who would interpert the law unless i can find exactly where it says it is legal to drive a pedalec or ebike without insurance tax a licence and NCT

it gets back to the original info from SteveC

SteveC wrote:

A mechanically propelled vehicle is defined as:
"mechanically propelled vehicle" means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—


( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

most pedalecs nowadays have a switch off mode so that you can cruise without any pedaling making them a e-bike especially the scooter types

Once the bike goes into this e-bike mode or even has this mode ability installed onit it becomes a MPV


Derry

blorg

Derry, there is the simple matter of practicality, I doubt sincerely that anyone would be stopped never mind prosecuted for riding a typical pedal assist electric bike.

The only place where this starts to cause issues were if you were in an accident and the other side then decides to take a tack on the status of what you were on at the time.

derry

blorg wrote: »

Derry, there is the simple matter of practicality, I doubt sincerely that anyone would be stopped never mind prosecuted for riding a typical pedal assist electric bike.

The only place where this starts to cause issues were if you were in an accident and the other side then decides to take a tack on the status of what you were on at the time.

I thought the Germans were bad with their rules and opt out clauses and you go to jail as you should know these things
But this one beats the Germans hands down if blorg;57059686 is correct

Basically your whizzing along on your electric bike and you bop a pedistrian who sues you for injuries recieived

If your unlucky and it goes to court the risks are the you being the ejit in front of the judge he will say one of several things

Lifes a bitch and flatulace remarks from dip stick ministers don't count .
Bike shop brochures which interpet the law are frilly wall paper.
But the law is the written down and the law is the law and down you go and you pay all the damages and license get endorsed for so many points whatever


Or maybe judge will say yes there exists a territory where pedelec with ebike facility below 250 watts are within the Irish law as the EU directive overwrote the Irish law

However you still got to pay all the damages you caused

Lesson from that is you are going to pay for the rest of your life from your pay cheques if you crippled the pedistrian and you have no insurance policy for this activity

if no insurance company exists that ensures that activity you would be very foolish to partake of that activity espesialy house or property owners who can lose everything they own if the costs go that high

Or maybe judge will say yes there exists a territory where pedelec with ebike facility below 250 watts are within the Irish law as the EU directive overwrote the Irish law

Also the state as a result pays out all damages to victims from this E bike activity
and so the activity does not require any insurance tax NCT or license and no points from license to lose

Myriads of varaitions can exist but those look the more likely to me in the absence of a black and white written down in the law


So the government can go about saying sure on your bikes do what you like but don't come crying to us when the judge throws the book at you


The Gaurda cannot turn a blind eye to a request for a court case for prosicution of a ebike driver as it is not their job to interpet the law merely enforce the law


Anyway only those short political life span green plebs ride those e bike things
A good dyed in the wool FF wont be seen dead riding a chicken chaser when the big new limos are falling like ripe plums from the government coffers

So the FF can say nah nah nah nah we fooled you green wet backs thanks to what we learned of the Germans how to speak in legal waffle and forked Tongues

So if you want to risk being a test case for the system to establish your green cred on your e-bike thingy off you go run over a frail old granny and test out the legal waffle we the government invented

Thats my interpetaion of what things look like until I see the exact law written down in black and white

But if some legal beagles who know how directives and legal waffle works know better shoot

Al I want to know is what to do not to lose my shirt riding a E bike

Looking at the original response from Gaurda site gives you an idea how they handle a curved ball hot potatoe sent winging to them

They throw back another curved ball and us dip sticks in the middle for this green versus FF game plan are the chicken chasers in the middle for this mess
http://www.garda.ie/faq.html#G8

garda.ie wrote:

What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters

The use of these types of scooters has become very popular in recent years, especially with children. The legal position is that if one of these scooters can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone, and does not require pedalling or scooting for propulsion, then the scooter is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) in terms of road traffic legislation, irrespective of engine capacity. If such scooters are to be used in any public place, they require insurance and road tax as with any other MPV. The driver would also require a driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet. If the user of such a scooter cannot fulfil these legal requirements, then the scooter should only be used on private property.

In Spain I know from friends it simple the police often stop and check the e bikes and under 50cc moped bikes

If they have pedals on it no problems but no pedals hell to pay so nobody dares remove the pedals from E-bikes even if they never use them

When I lived in France and always commuted every where with my Cioa Piago 49cc mopeds the rules were simple

49cc and less speeds than (~30MPH) 50KPH were classed different from cars or push bikes

I didn't need road tax number plates but I did need insurance ~10 euros per year and a helmet
I got stiffed once for a fine 30 euros for not wearing a helmet and helmets are hot things in summer on slow moped bikes

Yo also could lose points from car license and get fines some quite severe for big traffic violtaitons including loss of car motorbike license for D&D whilst driving a moped

Fines existed for mechanical diffient bikes like worn tyres or bad brakes but no NCT needed
(You were expected to maintain the road worthy features of the moped )

French police were not big on the pedals issue so lots of mopeds or scooters with 49cc ditched the pedals

Also if you did lose car license you could still commute on mopeds below 49cc or chicken chasers or e bike things with no license needed so popular transport for car license user who were on one or more year endorsements for something


Derry

blorg

Having been in an accident Derry I can assure you that the law is not as black and white as you think it is (or should be.)

derry

Having been involved with some accidents both on the road and in shopping center car parks where the car got writtten off most of time the law is completly weird and not what you think it should be

Its now more like Italy where you hire a load of witnesses and prove the guy reversed into you and get off scot free from rear ending the guy in front of you

Best I can tell there is no risks to tell porkies lies in the Irish court law system so its completely crap system open to massive abuse

Anyway in an accident where the other guy is in the wrong the best stratagy is to prove the Innocent party has broken some minor regulation
That works very in favour to maybe getting off scot free instead of being 100% in the wrong

So if a car driver bops a E bike user it is possibly in his interests to prove that a E bike user should be obliged to have Insurance licence and road tax so as to shift the proof of guilt to the E bike user

And if the judge decides the E bike user should have insurance licence tax etc then legaly it becomes a wreckless uninsured motorised vehicle E Bike with a equaly reckless driver who should not be on the road in the first place was in collision with another road user

It might end up 50% your fault 50% his fault or even 100% your fault and you pick up the tab and you get fined possibily imprisoned and lose points to the licence for no third party insurance for your E bike

Derry

blorg

Eh, Derry, that is not how the law works.

derry

blorg wrote: »

Eh, Derry, that is not how the law works.

So please then tell me then how the law works if your more expert in this subject

Derry

Wossack

If these pedal-elecs do require tax+insurance, do they not need to be registered with the state? frame numbers, license plates, log books and all that?

blorg

If you are in an accident the question of liability is independent of your insurance status. If an insured person is at fault, they are liable for the damages irrespective of whether the other party is insured or not.

derry

Wossack wrote: »

If these pedal-elecs do require tax+insurance, do they not need to be registered with the state? frame numbers, license plates, log books and all that?

Further up the post it seems fairly sure that the pedal-elecs are excemt from road tax
However that is not so sure for the E bikes

A lot of the the new pedal-elecs have a switch and can become a E bike

So it a issue to resolve

blorg wrote:

If you are in an accident the question of liability is independent of your insurance status. If an insured person is at fault, they are liable for the damages irrespective of whether the other party is insured or not.

well it still doesnt stop the guy rearending you trying to find a chink in the armor as that can help their case

But the real issue is when the E bike does the damage and is at fault then what when the gaurda arrive on the scene and the case goes to the DPP

Derry

Steve

derry wrote: »

But the real issue is when the E bike does the damage and is at fault then what when the gaurda arrive on the scene and the case goes to the DPP

Just because the bike rider is not insured does not stop them being liable for any criminal charges or cost of any damage that they do.

derry

SteveC wrote: »

Just because the bike rider is not insured does not stop them being liable for any criminal charges or cost of any damage that they do.

There are two elements criminal charges and cost of any damage

Will the E Biker be facing criminal charges be driving a PAV ( powered assisted vehicle without third party insurace in line with the PAV rules or will be just something like driving without due care a push bike appliance

There is no requirement for a push bike to insured and so if a push bike is found at fault to causing damage injuries etc and the owner of the push bike hasnot got the funds to pay the costs does the state pick up the tab through the car uninsured scheme and would the same methods apply to a E BIKE user

Derry

derry

I read today in the evening press that sedgeway electric drive gizzmo that can go 10 miles at 20KPH are not street legal

Therfore it confims that any bike with electric drive that issnt pedal assist and exceeds 15KPH isnt street legal
Therefore pedal assist bikes with a button where you can switch off pedal assist and just use electric drive without pedaling the bike pedal are also not street legal

That means that they require insurance third party and some method of registration for licence plates to get insurance

Prove me wrong but I bet you cant

I checked with lots of places

Greens are waste of space if they cant even get greener electric bike past the regime in power

Derry

blackbox

derry wrote: »

I read today in the evening press that sedgeway electric drive gizzmo that can go 10 miles at 20KPH are not street legal

Therfore it confims that any bike with electric drive that issnt pedal assist and exceeds 15KPH isnt street legal
Therefore pedal assist bikes with a button where you can switch off pedal assist and just use electric drive without pedaling the bike pedal are also not street legal

That means that they require insurance third party and some method of registration for licence plates to get insurance

Prove me wrong but I bet you cant

I checked with lots of places

Greens are waste of space if they cant even get greener electric bike past the regime in power

Derry

I think the reason that Segway's aren't legal is due to hte fact that they don't have a mechanical brake, not because they are battery powered.

Nobody has said the electric bikes aren't legal. The question is regarding the need for insurance.

L1011

The Evening Press stopped being printed in 1994 ????

Run_to_da_hills

blackbox wrote: »

I think the reason that Segway's aren't legal is due to hte fact that they don't have a mechanical brake, not because they are battery powered.

Nobody has said the electric bikes aren't legal. The question is regarding the need for insurance.

These are a gray area, they were initially designed for the "sidewalk",but of course its illegal to have a mechanically propelled vehicle on the path unless its a power assisted wheelchair or an old folks mobility aid. The only other place is the public road but im sure they would need other requirements. I’m sure they can be insured if the cops are using them in the airport as they must be specified on their policy.

galwaytt

under the Car Free Day scheme some time ago, I queried this with Galway Corporation, and they came back to me as follows, as they had to enquire for themselves on whether to allow them on Car Free Day......:

If the electric motive power CANNOT propel it above 15kph, it is NOT a motor vehicle, and so is exempt from tax/insurance/licence requirements.

I will draw from that, then, the corollary is also true: namely, that the arbiter here is the speed, not the power of the unit, nor the nature of hte motive power (battery, petrol, etc) To wit, that, if it is capable of exceeding 15kph you are then obliged to have:
VLC, Type Approval as vehicle...which means it must display appropriate reflectors, lights, number plates....be taxed, insured and the rider must hold a driving licence for it. Which, these days, will be Class M - involving a Theory Test and driving test.

Same goes for Segway's - that's why they can't sell them for road use yet.

Using them on the path, even as a 'cycle', is an offence, and you can be summonsed - irrespective of motive source or speed capability.

To sum up, and answer the OP's question: it isn't written, anywhere that you CAN'T use them. Just that if it's capable of 15kph, it's a vehicle, and the Road Traffic Act etc etc applies. Electric etc is irrelevant.

derry

galwaytt wrote: »

....snip....
If the electric motive power CANNOT propel it above 15kph, it is NOT a motor vehicle, and so is exempt from tax/insurance/licence requirements.
....snip....

So typical FF clear as mud

The last regime was bad eneogh with that In your face all the time minister for Justice whats his name

But this regime the Greens have an opposite stratergy to be never seen and to never make FF clear up the muddy waters they create


The cops on Sedgeways at the airport is covered as its on private grounds and you can do what you like on private grounds

It the issue of using the typical electric drive stuff that does ~20KPH with no pedal assist which includs sedgeways and similar

Derry

derry

On the pat kenny show a few weeks back was some Pedal elec sales guy. They stated that pedal elec where you must cycle is legal no insurance tax nuber plates . The other types which can switch between pedal elec and twist and go or pure twist and go types even if they stay below 15KPH require insurance and are classed as mechanically propelled vehiciles
SEDWAY therefore require third party insurace to be used on public roads as they also brake the other rule they do 20KPH

Dont ask me what the greens are doing in with the regime if they cant even get us twist and go 15KPH electric bikes as I for one dont want to pay so much for pedal elec only . Some days I want to be lazy and let the electric do all the work

Derry

blorg

Pedal assist bikes are designed so the motor turns "on" if you are moving the pedals at all. As you recognise this is a legal requirement. On a technical level you can be very lazy indeed, you just have to keep lightly moving your legs with next to no effort at all to keep the motor "on" and you will be motoring along at 25kph. Unless you are disabled this should not present too much difficulty.

So have you got your pedal assist yet Derry?

derry

blorg wrote: »

Pedal assist bikes are designed so the motor turns "on" if you are moving the pedals at all. As you recognise this is a legal requirement. On a technical level you can be very lazy indeed, you just have to keep lightly moving your legs with next to no effort at all to keep the motor "on" and you will be motoring along at 25kph. Unless you are disabled this should not present too much difficulty.

So have you got your pedal assist yet Derry?

Santa passed me out:D

So I think i will do a short trip to spain stay a week or two and see what is in the shops there .Corte des englise normaly for those things is 50% cheaper than anything here in ROI .I might just go online and order direct as Postage from spain is way cheaper than Irish post. Sports goods on the plane is usualy about 30 euros which covers canoes bikes etc .Should be able to save ~25% to ~50% on ROI prices for the same bike .Plus i can get to spin around on my holiday.beats renting a bike what i normally do when I go to spain for a holiday

keep you posted .Good to know that info about the pedals


Derry

pigeon1916

Electric bicycles added to cycle to work scheme
Issued: 09 December 2008

Statement by Ciarán Cuffe

Spokesperson on Transport and Marine; Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Foreign Affairs



Transport spokesperson Ciaran Cuffe says change will increase take-up

The Green Party has welcomed an amendment to the Finance Bill permitting electric bicycles to avail of the new Cycle to Work scheme. Under the scheme commuters can claim tax relief on bicycles worth up to €1,000 every five years. Following representations to Green Party Leader John Gormley and the Minister for Finance, electric bicycles, which use battery power to help cyclists pedal uphill or against wind, will be added to the scheme.

Green Party Transport spokesperson Ciaran Cuffe TD said: “This is a sensible change that will allow electric bicycles that do not require road tax or insurance to be eligible for the scheme. I am confident that this will allow more commuters to utilise the scheme.

“Electric Bicycles have a role to play in reducing traffic congestion and lowering emissions. Older cyclists in particular find that these types of bicycles can make the difference between giving up cycling and staying on the bike for longer. I am pleased with the changes proposed by the Minister for Finance this week and hope that as many commuters as possible can look into switching from the car to the bike, because of this scheme.”

The €1,000 limit on the BIK exemption for bicycles purchased by employers for employees will remain. The purpose of this amendment is to include certain electric bicycles that do not require road tax or insurance, known as ‘Pedelecs’, in the eligibility criteria for the scheme. The amendment to the Finance Bill reads:

‘pedal cycle’ means—

(ii) a pedelec,

but does not include a moped or a scooter; ‘pedelec’ means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/news/latest_news/electric_bicycles_added_to_cycle_to_work_scheme

derry

Well its a start the greens actually making a half useful change while being in bed with the kick back regime.

At least more old codgers like me can try to twist the bosses arm to give us a
more easy ride to work in the morning evening commute


Pity the greens don't supply us with free pedelec bikes


Derry

Keithaburke

Ok,
I bought one nearly 2 weeks ago... It's definately an ebike.
Thanks to a motorcyclist with a strong French accent who stopped me... and to all the info on this thread... I'm discovering that I would need a license.

I'll have to bring it back. I still have the brochure with the picture that says I don't need a license or insurance. Tomorrow..

I asked a garda to check it out for me. He's going to ring me tomorrow. I can guess the answer. It cost me a grand. Expensive mistake.

Keith

derry

I saw a few weeks back electric scooter in the Dunlaighre festival from green machines Terunure

The sales guy said it was a 2kw power engine and did some 30Mph needs number plate reg insurance the lot SAME AS ORDINARY MOTOR BIKE.He figured the cost insurance would be same as the 500 petrol motor bike types

They said only pedalelecs are legal without insurance tax reg etc

http://www.electricbikes.ie/htdocs/Electric_Bike_Laws.html


This site has I think supplied supplied the defintive answer

Pedalecs are legal and throtle only types need licence insurance registeration tax the lot

A pedalelec with a trottle system option with visible throttle is therefore a not a pedelec anymore

Here is the info that www.electricbikes.ie got from the department of transport

www.electricbikes.ie wrote:

Below is the a direct copy of the correspondence we have had with the Vehicle Standards Division of the Department of Transport. We asked, what exactly were the laws regarding electric bikes and their legality? This was the response we received; I have highlighted the part most applicable to us.

---

Original Message

---

From: "Vehicle Standards Division" < VehicleStandardsDivision@transport.ie >
To: < gerryb@electricbikes.ie >
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 4:51 PM
Subject: Electrically assisted pedal cycles


Dear Gerry,

I refer to your telephone query on electrically assisted pedal cycles.

The Road Traffic Act, 1961 defines a mechanically propelled vehicle (mpv)
as:-

"a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including-
( a ) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,
( b ) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical, but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;"

All mpvs must comply with Road Traffic law relating to the construction, equipment and use of vehicles i.e. they must meet all requirements covering such items as brakes, lights, dimensions, weight, springs, wheels, tyres, steering, gears, mudguards, view of the road, mirrors, safety glass, windscreen wipers, mirrors, speedometers, horn, silencer, exhausts emissions, condition and maintenance etc. In addition, a mechanically propelled vehicle may not be used in any public place unless there is in
place third party insurance cover against its negligent use. A mechanically propelled vehicle is also required to be registered, is subject to motor tax and its driver will require a driving licence.

Electrically assisted cycles, known as "pedelecs", which have electric motors which only assist the pedalling effort and which do not act as a means of propulsion in their own right, are not considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles.

I am obliged to point out that enforcement of the Regulations is a matter for An Garda Síochána while interpretation of them is a matter for the Courts.

I hope this information is helpful.

Yours sincerely,

Johanna XXXXXX
Vehicle Standards Division

I am looking a clip on electric pedelec solution from MiBike Malahide
http://www.mibike.ie/costs 600 for 24volt or 750 for 36v if you fit it yourself and a whole lot more if you tke a bike with the package.However the bikes seem to be good qualty for what you get if your looking for a walk in drive away versions

Then I can add the kit on to my trusty cheapo china crap mountian bike I bought while on holiday in Spain cost 120 euros in Carrefour with carrier and side panel bags . The Ebike in Spain were a lot cheaper than Ireland but funds were low from other stuff like going on holidays to Spain for two months isnt cheap even with camping so the ebike went on the back burner. Anyway I needed the exersice cyling around spain in the heat to get the spare tyre belly down.
I did lose a few KG but since then I gained it all back so have to go do another 500 kilometer plus cycle to get rid of the flab .
Now I got the bike and since then I got a tools carry type trailer for 130 euro from a bike shop in Harlods cross and a cheap 40 euro bike rack for the back of the car from Halfords ( didnt take the extra bit the light panel for 30 euros and just stick the bike higher so as not to cover the cars tail lights ) .
So now all I need is the clip on electric solutions as once I attach the trailer full for equpment I will need the extra power to go uphill.

Then me and bike trialer as sport equipment but no bike and the pedal elec kit go to spain buy airplane for another few months if the credit card can take the pain and where I will get another bike in spain and fit the clip on pedal elec gear to that bike and leave the older bike back in Ireland .


Here is info from british site
http://www.ultramotor.com/uk/electric_bikes_legislation
where they figure the same rules are needed in most of the EU but in the UK the need to be a pedelec isnt required in the UK

Derry

mullingar

That link from the first page to
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm





This retro-fit kit is 2KW, yes 2000W! capable of "assisting" your push-bike to 120kph!!

LMAO!!!!

dlofnep

I had an electric pushbike, did about 15mph. They are really heavy though!

Steve

mullingar wrote: »

That link from the first page to
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm

This retro-fit kit is 2KW, yes 2000W! capable of "assisting" your push-bike to 120kph!!

LMAO!!!!

According to them, the battery is "36V 10Ah LiFePo4"

[nerdy bit]
2000W / 36V = 55.5A
10Ah / 55.5A = 0.18h

That means you only get 10 minutes from the battery :eek:
[/nerdy bit]

mullingar

Steve wrote: »

According to them, the battery is "36V 10Ah LiFePo4"

[nerdy bit]
2000W / 36V = 55.5A
10Ah / 55.5A = 0.18h

That means you only get 10 minutes from the battery :eek:
[/nerdy bit]

Killjoy!

Esel

A pedal-assist bike (i.e. where the motor only kicks in if you are pedalling) is the only type for which you do not need licence, tax and insurance. Afaik.

robtri

here's an interesting link to a bike shop, who show an email from the vehicle standards office about what is allowed or not...

http://www.electricbikes.ie/htdocs/Electric_Bike_Laws.html

nicksinthemix

Be careful guys, the other day some fella wandered into my shop and asked about a scooter that 'CIE Bike' do. He was told that you don't need tax and insurance for is 250W scooter. Sometimes ads on gumtree appear with the same claim.

I'm sure this thread points to the letter of the law on the matter but as I understand it, it has to be pedal assist and that means a slow scooter doesn't count.

If you don't need to rotate the pedals to get it going, then its a scooter. Don't listen to people who claim that it's okay because the motor is under 250W and doesn't go more than 25kmph.

Besides, I used to sell electric scooters with almost ten times the power (2000W). I can't get my head around a 250W scooter going more than walking pace.

BTW, we <snip>supply electric bikes, if you're interested PM me and I'll give you the link to our website</snip>. I promise you they are all genuinely legal for road use without tax or insurance.

BostonB

Lots of YouTube vids of people making electric bikes (not peak assist) very fast.

derry

sorry posted wrong thread

Derry

Steve

I assume the same thing applies to small petrol driven attachments for bikes.. does anyone know?

Esel

Mechanically driven = tax, insurance and licence, I'm afraid.