What are the odds?

PDN · 18-08-2008 11:29AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually considering the two of you were heading to the same place for the same time the chances of meeting along the way are large.

Couple this with the fact that the closer you get the higher the probability that you will run out of petrol, therefore making it even more likely again that you will meet.

Also as the circle around the destination point gets smaller the number of choices of petrol station will also reduce quickly. The closer you get therefore the divisor of the probability equation will also get smaller thus increasing the chances.

All in all not that shocking, especially when you consider all the things you have gone to in your life where you DIDNT meet someone on the way. Its just a subjective choice to be amazed by the event where it DID happen when actually its a lot more mathematically suprising that we should get to so many events in our life without seeing at least one person until we get there. There are explanations for this though like "Keep your eyes on the road"!

If that is so then should I take it as a sign from God that this has never happened to me before? I have filled up my car hundreds, probably thousands, of times in the dozen or so petrol stations in my home town where I know hundreds of people - yet I have never pulled in beside a pump to find someone I know also pumping petrol from the very same pump at the very same time!

Yet you want to tell me that, out of the hundreds of gas stations between Houston and San Antonio that it was quite likely that I should bump into my next door neighbour at the precise time that he was filling up at one of the thousands of gas stations between Palm Beach, Florida and San Antonio, Texas?

Be careful bending over backwards so far - you might hurt yourself!

JimiTime · 18-08-2008 12:02PM

PDN wrote: »

If that is so then should I take it as a sign from God that this has never happened to me before? I have filled up my car hundreds, probably thousands, of times in the dozen or so petrol stations in my home town where I know hundreds of people - yet I have never pulled in beside a pump to find someone I know also pumping petrol from the very same pump at the very same time!

Yet you want to tell me that, out of the hundreds of gas stations between Houston and San Antonio that it was quite likely that I should bump into my next door neighbour at the precise time that he was filling up at one of the thousands of gas stations between Palm Beach, Florida and San Antonio, Texas?

Be careful bending over backwards so far - you might hurt yourself!

TBH PDN, I've seen programmes about the 10 plagues being conincidences. Some toxin got into the nile, which had a red hue to it. Frogs left the nile because of the toxin. the fish in the nile died, causing flies etc to multiply at an alarming rate. Toxin enters food chain, animals die. Then there was an eclipse etc.
The atheist response is to be expected. Remember that they believe life is a series of remarkable coincidences all happening.

Personally, I can't say if this was God acting. I'm always skeptical about these things, but I'm glad it worked out, and that it gave encouragement. The most convincing part of the story was this line IMO:

PDN wrote:

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

It conveyed an instinct. Presumably you had enough Gas to wait until you got to a plush station, but you acted against this Norm out of an instinct that felt right.

Zombrex · 18-08-2008 12:09PM

PDN wrote: »

Yet you want to tell me that, out of the hundreds of gas stations between Houston and San Antonio that it was quite likely that I should bump into my next door neighbour at the precise time that he was filling up at one of the thousands of gas stations between Palm Beach, Florida and San Antonio, Texas?

Yes.

Though your evolved brain is fighting hard not to accept that, for some good survival reasons.

The subject of coincidence and the difference between how humans perceive the odds of something and what the odds actually are is a fascinating but largely misunderstood topic.

The classic example of this is the birthday problem. What are the odds that a group of people in a room share the same birthday. While most people say the odds are small for a small group it turns out that you only need 24 people in a room for the odds that a pair of them share a birth to be greater than the odds that none of them share a birthday. This would seem counter intuitive to most people because they think that it is 1 to 365 that someone would share a birthday.

I haven't read it but a book that was recommended to me is "Beyond Conincidence", reviewed here

There are various webpages with deal with the subject, such as this one

http://pass.maths.org.uk/issue4/grimmett/

Zombrex · 18-08-2008 12:19PM

JimiTime wrote: »

The atheist response is to be expected. Remember that they believe life is a series of remarkable coincidences all happening.

Not that remarkable since these types of events happen quite a lot.

For example, poison gas released due to volcanic activity can and often does turn water a thick red colour, and unfortunately tends to kill people in their sleep due to carbon monoxide. This also tends to kill children faster than adults. There is a very sad story of a village in Africa where the lake went dark read and the next day the adults woke up to find all the children in the village (bar a few lucky ones) had died in their sleep.

It is easy to see how in a time before science and understanding of natural events an event like this could be considered to be a supernatural event and become wrapped up in the myths and legends of a people and given a supernatural explanation by the religious rulers of the day.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 01:11PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Not that remarkable since these types of events happen quite a lot.

For example, poison gas released due to volcanic activity can and often does turn water a thick red colour, and unfortunately tends to kill people in their sleep due to carbon monoxide. This also tends to kill children faster than adults. There is a very sad story of a village in Africa where the lake went dark read and the next day the adults woke up to find all the children in the village (bar a few lucky ones) had died in their sleep.

It is easy to see how in a time before science and understanding of natural events an event like this could be considered to be a supernatural event and become wrapped up in the myths and legends of a people and given a supernatural explanation by the religious rulers of the day.

They're completly different types of events.

Zombrex · 18-08-2008 01:38PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

They're completly different types of events.

I'm not following, what are completely different from what?

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 02:00PM

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not following, what are completely different from what?

1. PDN's involved him explictly praying.
2. PDN's had a positive outcome.
3. PDN's was trying to deduce a positive cause / effect from his relationship with God.
4. Your story had a scientific explanation, PDN's only has a co-incidence explanation. It's nothing to do with infection, disease etc.
5. PDN's involves a number of distinct separate variables all fitting into place at the same time:
- both of them going to the same conference
- both of them going to the same petrol station

The only thing in common is that in both cases, you don't accept a possible explanation of God.

Zombrex · 18-08-2008 02:07PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. PDN's involved him explictly praying.
2. PDN's had a positive outcome.
3. PDN's was trying to deduce a positive cause / effect from his relationship with God.
4. Your story had a scientific explanation, PDN's only has a co-incidence explanation. It's nothing to do with infection, disease etc.
5. PDN's involves a number of distinct separate variables all fitting into place at the same time:
- both of them going to the same conference
- both of them going to the same petrol station

The only thing in common is that in both cases, you don't accept a possible explanation of God.

I was discussing the 10 plagues, something Jimi brought up, not PDN's encounter which I doubt had anything to do with volcanic activity

.

TravelJunkie · 18-08-2008 02:50PM

PDN wrote: »

Two weeks ago I was taking a few days break in Houston, Texas with my family. We had to be at a conference in San Antonio on the Monday - so we decided to drive across a couple of days early, on the Saturday. I was dealing with some difficult work situations and was praying, "God, I really need you to do something special to show me that you are in control and work things together for good."

Meanwhile, my next door neighbour has been preaching in churches in Florida for the last 2 months. He was also going to the same Conference in San Antonio and, unbeknown to me, also decided to get there a bit early. So on Thursday he started driving from Miami to San Antonio. Unfortunately he had no directions as to how to find the Conference venue - so as he made his way through the Florida Panhandle, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana etc. he prayed for God to help him find directions.

About 40 miles out of Houston I realised that we were low on gas so, on the spur of the moment, I swung into a beat-up old gas station beside the Interstate. My wife was asking, "What on earth are you doing?" as we always call at nice clean gas stations with decent rest rooms etc. I answered, "I don't know. It just seemed like the right thing to do."

As I got out of my car to pump gas I heard a voice saying, "No! I don't bellieve it!" There, on the other side of the same gas pump, was my next door neighbour. At first it took a while to register with me that it was him since I didn't recognise the car he had borrowed for the week.

I was able to give him directions to the Conference venue in San Antonio (I had assumed he would have flown there) and I got my reassurance that God was in control.

For the remainder of the trip to San Antonio (another three hours) I just kept laughing at this 'coincidence' and wondered what are the odds against us both being at the very same gas pump at the same location at the same time.

Oh, and by the way, God sorted out those work problems just fine.

This is a lovely story. People are a little sceptical...

I wonder what they'd say about the time, when I was on a bus full of christian missionaries in Africa and our bus broke. The axle. We were living by faith. Some prayer was said and the bus started again.

Another one, It was my birthday, (that same year), I had no money and I was thirsty. God, if I only had a coke, I thought. Someone comes to me then, and gives me a coke, and says Happy Birthday (how did they know it's my birthday?) Anyways, I drink the coke in two gulps. I was very very thirsty.
Then, I think, if only I had drunk it slower. Then a second person bought me a coke.

This is hardly life-saving stuff but it meant the world to me.

Zombrex · 18-08-2008 02:59PM

TravelJunkie wrote: »

This is a lovely story. People are a little sceptical... I wonder what they'd say about the time, when I was on a bus full of christian missionaries in Africa and our bus broke. The axle. We were living by faith. Some prayer was said and the bus started again.

Given that a bus full of missionaries would probably start praying if the bus broke down, whether or not it is fixed, it is hard to see what is remarkable about that story. How many times does a bus full of missionaries brake down, they all start praying, and nothing happens.

Also one wonders if missionaries who are killed in bus accidents were they just not praying hard enough?

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8242&Itemid=53

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Another one, It was my birthday, (that same year), I had no money and I was thirsty. God, if I only had a coke, I thought. Someone comes to me then, and gives me a coke, and says Happy Birthday (how did they know it's my birthday?) Anyways, I drink the coke in two gulps. I was very very thirsty.
Then, I think, if only I had drunk it slower. Then a second person bought me a coke.

Considering Coke has caffeine and tons of sugar in it, one wonders why God didn't send you water rather than Coke.

Maybe it was Satan. Does Satan answer prayers?

TravelJunkie · 18-08-2008 03:16PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Given that a bus full of missionaries would probably start praying if the bus broke down, whether or not it is fixed, it is hard to see what is remarkable about that story. How many times does a bus full of missionaries brake down, they all start praying, and nothing happens.

Also one wonders if missionaries who are killed in bus accidents were they just not praying hard enough?

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8242&Itemid=53

Considering Coke has caffeine and tons of sugar in it, one wonders why God didn't send you water rather than Coke.

Maybe it was Satan. Does Satan answer prayers?

I apologise.

Although the stories are true, I only posted because I knew they would rile you up. (very uchristianlike of me).

Anyways, I wanted coke. Water would have been better for me, yes.

Flamed Diving · 18-08-2008 03:45PM

I was sitting down at my computer one time and thought 'Gee, I'd love to be sitting at a computer'. And when I opened my eyes, it came true!

Coincidence?

JimiTime · 18-08-2008 03:54PM

TravelJunkie wrote: »

This is a lovely story. People are a little sceptical... I wonder what they'd say about the time, when I was on a bus full of christian missionaries in Africa and our bus broke. The axle. We were living by faith. Some prayer was said and the bus started again.

Hang on, the Axel broke? You prayed and it was fixed? If this is so, then that is miraculous. If the axel broke, that bus would be going nowhere, absolutely nowhere. Any chance of elaboration?

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 03:57PM

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I apologise.

Although the stories are true, I only posted because I knew they would rile you up. (very uchristianlike of me).

Anyways, I wanted coke. Water would have been better for me, yes.

This thread is just reaching bizarre proportions.

Firstly, there's a very obvious ethical issue, which isn't a million miles from the climate change debate we recently had. Surely it's more important that babies stop dieing of malaria, getting cancer, starving to death, geting trachoma than a bus breaking down, someone bumping into their friend etc etc.

I would have thought that the Christian philosophy would mean that there is a clear distinction in which problems are worse and then the problems are treated as such. [Perhaps that's my misunderstanding].

Secondly: is there any good argument / experiment that would show progress on any of the more serious issues from prayer? I don't think there is.

I accept that there is evidence of action from humans who share the Christian philosophy on these issues (Trocaire for example) but there's just no evidence of prayer or God directly helping w.r.t. to any of these issues.

Zombrex · 18-08-2008 04:02PM

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I only posted because I knew they would rile you up.

Hey, if anyone is going to be doing riling up around here is it the atheists

JimiTime · 18-08-2008 04:06PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

This thread is just reaching bizarre proportions.

Firstly, there's a very obvious ethical issue, which isn't a million miles from the climate change debate we recently had. Surely it's more important that babies stop dieing of malaria, getting cancer, starving to death, geting trachoma than a bus breaking down, someone bumping into their friend etc etc.

I would have thought that the Christian philosophy would mean that there is a clear distinction in which problems are worse and then the problems are treated as such. [Perhaps that's my misunderstanding].

Secondly: is there any good argument / experiment that would show progress on any of the more serious issues from prayer? I don't think there is.

I accept that there is evidence of action from humans who share the Christian philosophy on these issues (Trocaire for example) but there's just no evidence of prayer or God directly helping w.r.t. to any of these issues.

I know what you're saying Tim. However, when Jesus converted water to wine, or fed the many with the loaves and fishes, there were obviously folk elsewhere that were more needy. No-one is entitled to Gods help. If God helps a rich man get richer, then thats his perogative. Neither a rich man or a poor man are any more entitled or deserving. God chooses who he chooses. Thinking 'why did he lead PDN to that gas station, while my daughter died of Lukemia(an example of an incident, I've never had a daughter)', is a reasonable question. However, we don't decide who gets Gods help, God does. Read the book of Romans, especially the bit about Esau and Jacob for a bit more insight on the subject.

nozzferrahhtoo · 18-08-2008 04:12PM

If that is so then should I take it as a sign from God that this has never happened to me before? I have filled up my car hundreds, probably thousands, of times in the dozen or so petrol stations in my home town where I know hundreds of people - yet I have never pulled in beside a pump to find someone I know also pumping petrol from the very same pump at the very same time!

Any yet when it happens just once its a miracle? If something doesnt happen 1000s of times and then it happens once this is not a case of miracles, its a case of "about time".

But yes, i find it more suprising that you dont see people you know so often in your area that I find it suprising that you saw one person you know in this one situation. However in your story you didnt see the person this time either. HE saw YOU. Maybe you are just not very observant and the only reason it happened this time is the guy wanted something from you.

Therefore Id be less concerned in this case with the miracle and more concerned with why no one who sees you in gas stations generally wants to talk to you

TravelJunkie · 18-08-2008 04:13PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Hang on, the Axel broke? You prayed and it was fixed? If this is so, then that is miraculous. If the axel broke, that bus would be going nowhere, absolutely nowhere. Any chance of elaboration?

I don't think it was fixed on the spot. The bus 'held together' enough to travel miles to the next town. But you're right, because the guys working on it were amazed.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 04:14PM

JimiTime wrote: »

I know what you're saying Tim. However, when Jesus converted water to wine, or fed the many with the loaves and fishes, there were obviously folk elsewhere that were more needy. No-one is entitled to Gods help. If God helps a rich man get richer, then thats his perogative. Neither a rich man or a poor man are any more entitled or deserving. God chooses who he chooses. Thinking 'why did he lead PDN to that gas station, while my daughter died of Lukemia(an example of an incident, I've never had a daughter)', is a reasonable question. However, we don't decide who gets Gods help, God does. Read the book of Romans, especially the bit about Esau and Jacob for a bit more insight on the subject.

I am glad you understand my point Jimitime and gave me a clear, honest response without waffle or double-think. However, this point is just another problem I have with the Christian God, even if he exists. He sounds like an egomaniac that intervens when he's in the mood and not where he is clearly needed most. As the philosopher, Colin McGinn states in the atheist tapes, if a human was doing that, what would your opinion of him be? Suppose your local GP, couldn't care about kid that was blind that he could cure, but help you change your spare wheel? it also seriously questions the christian maxim that God is love, it seems a very strange love.

I know the counter argument to this, God knows better... but that's very hard to accept. Would it not be more efficient to just help someone to remeber to bring a map rather than co-ordinate an elaborate sequence of events so that they bump into each other and then go wow? Surely they go more wow if he miracously gave a cure for kids getting cancer?

TravelJunkie · 18-08-2008 04:16PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Hey, if anyone is going to be doing riling up around here is it the atheists

PDN · 18-08-2008 04:24PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

This thread is just reaching bizarre proportions.

Firstly, there's a very obvious ethical issue, which isn't a million miles from the climate change debate we recently had. Surely it's more important that babies stop dieing of malaria, getting cancer, starving to death, geting trachoma than a bus breaking down, someone bumping into their friend etc etc.

I would have thought that the Christian philosophy would mean that there is a clear distinction in which problems are worse and then the problems are treated as such. [Perhaps that's my misunderstanding].

Secondly: is there any good argument / experiment that would show progress on any of the more serious issues from prayer? I don't think there is.

I accept that there is evidence of action from humans who share the Christian philosophy on these issues (Trocaire for example) but there's just no evidence of prayer or God directly helping w.r.t. to any of these issues.

The Christian philosophy is that we are encouraged, even commanded, to pray and that such prayer can make a difference. We do not claim that prayer always results in what we want, but we do believe that it happens often enough to make it worthwhile (if I had to pray for 1000 braindead people to see one healed then I would consider that a reason to persevere).

The instances of answered prayer do not, as far as I can see, correlate to any scale of seriousness as to the thing being prayed for. I actually think it quite possible that praying for minor things can build up our faith so that we are more likely to see results when we pray for something more important. So, for example, I pray for parking spaces every time I go into town. That doesn't take a lot of faith. But each time I find that parking space waiting for me it increases me faith in the power of prayer. Then, when I find myself confronted with a situation that requires a lot of faith, as when I'm asked to go to hospital to pray for someone with terminal cancer, those smaller exercises of faith help me.

As to whether prayer can make major change, I believe it can. Have you seen the film Amazing Grace? It ascribes the abolition of slavery not just to the activism of William Wilberforce, but also to the prayers of thousands of Christians as typified by John Newton - the former captain of a slaver ship who wrote the hymn that gives the film its title.

That is why many churches (our own included) organises prayer meetings on specific issues such as the Persecuted Church in China or to stop people trafficking. Of course such prayer also has the effect of motivating people to become activists - for example, some of our youth have already volunteered to work unpaid among AIDS orphans and child soldiers in Africa.

I believe it was John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, who with a characteristic blend of faith and common sense said, "Work as if there was no Holy Spirit. Then pray as if there was nothing but the Holy Spirit."

JimiTime · 18-08-2008 04:30PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am glad you understand my point Jimitime and gave me a clear, honest response without waffle or double-think. However, this point is just another problem I have with the Christian God, even if he exists. He sounds like an egomaniac that intervens when he's in the mood and not where he is clearly needed most.

I could attempt to give my two cent on it, but to be honest, its something that I'm still hammering out in my own head. As I said, have a read of Romans to see Pauls reasoning and see what you reckon.

I know the counter argument to this, God knows better... but that's very hard to accept.

Well actually, in Romans it does not seem to reason like this. Its more, 'God chooses'. Its a difficult one, for a believer like myself, never mind for a non-believer.

Would it not be more efficient to just help someone to remeber to bring a map rather than co-ordinate an elaborate sequence of events so that they bump into each other and then go wow? Surely they go more wow if he miracously gave a cure for kids getting cancer?

I can't disagree with you tbh. Its something I am currently struggling with.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 04:36PM

PDN wrote: »

As to whether prayer can make major change, I believe it can. Have you seen the film Amazing Grace? It ascribes the abolition of slavery not just to the activism of William Wilberforce, but also to the prayers of thousands of Christians as typified by John Newton - the former captain of a slaver ship who wrote the hymn that gives the film its title.

That is why many churches (our own included) organises prayer meetings on specific issues such as the Persecuted Church in China or to stop people trafficking. Of course such prayer also has the effect of motivating people to become activists - for example, some of our youth have already volunteered to work unpaid among AIDS orphans and child soldiers in Africa.

I believe it was John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, who with a characteristic blend of faith and common sense said, "Work as if there was no Holy Spirit. Then pray as if there was nothing but the Holy Spirit."

Well I would appreciate the sentiment and the intent. I haven't seen that film, but would add that if anything positive can come from prayer even if it is just an anti depressant with no objective reality, I have no problem with it.

Unfortunately both slaverly and apartheid were also justified by scripture, even if it was incorrect interpretation of it.

PDN · 18-08-2008 05:06PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Unfortunately both slaverly and apartheid were also justified by scripture, even if it was incorrect interpretation of it.

That is indeed so, but I believe that is explained by two factors.

1. It is a sociological fact that people attempt to justify behaviour in accordance with the dominant ideology of their culture. So, if communism had been the dominant ideology then the defenders of slavery and apartheid would have justified their activities by Marxist-Leninist principles. If they were in Saudi Arabia then they would have justified them from the Koran. Since they lived in a culture with a Judeo-Christian value system they attempted to use the Bible to defend unjust practices.

2. The abolitionists used the Bible as one of their primary weapons against slavery. This was not just because it provided a convemnient weapon in a cause they would have fought anyway. People like Wilberforce and Newton were devout evangelical believers who saw their abolitionism as a necessary consequence of their faith. Newton in particular is an interesting case. He was a man who supported slavery and enriched himself through the slave trade, yet after his conversion to Christianity he became an ardent abolitionist.

Now, those defending a practice that is under attack will naturally attempt to turn the attackers' weapons back on themselves. If you try to prove something is unconstitutional, then its defenders will almost certainly attempt to use the Constitution in their defence. When the 'No' campaign argued that the Lisbon Treaty would cost jobs, the 'Yes' campaign immediately argued that the Treaty would create jobs. The same was true in respect to slavery. When the abolitionists used the Bible to argue against slavery then it was sadly inevitable that the pro-slavery lobby would try to justify themselves using the Bible. That is human nature. Thankfully they lost.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 05:29PM

PDN wrote: »

That is indeed so, but I believe that is explained by two factors.

1. It is a sociological fact that people attempt to justify behaviour in accordance with the dominant ideology of their culture. So, if communism had been the dominant ideology then the defenders of slavery and apartheid would have justified their activities by Marxist-Leninist principles. If they were in Saudi Arabia then they would have justified them from the Koran. Since they lived in a culture with a Judeo-Christian value system they attempted to use the Bible to defend unjust practices.

2. The abolitionists used the Bible as one of their primary weapons against slavery. This was not just because it provided a convemnient weapon in a cause they would have fought anyway. People like Wilberforce and Newton were devout evangelical believers who saw their abolitionism as a necessary consequence of their faith. Newton in particular is an interesting case. He was a man who supported slavery and enriched himself through the slave trade, yet after his conversion to Christianity he became an ardent abolitionist.

Now, those defending a practice that is under attack will naturally attempt to turn the attackers' weapons back on themselves. If you try to prove something is unconstitutional, then its defenders will almost certainly attempt to use the Constitution in their defence. When the 'No' campaign argued that the Lisbon Treaty would cost jobs, the 'Yes' campaign immediately argued that the Treaty would create jobs. The same was true in respect to slavery. When the abolitionists used the Bible to argue against slavery then it was sadly inevitable that the pro-slavery lobby would try to justify themselves using the Bible. That is human nature. Thankfully they lost.

The question is really how people like Malan were able to use scripture in the first place to justify what they did and why so many scripture believing people followed suit. Your explaination of the dominate ideology in some respects explains this. However, if scripture or Christianity was so perfect it would not have been possible to so easily and effectively subvert it.

Secondly, if God sent unquestionable clarification they were using it incorrectly, it would have made it much harder to subvert it.

Thirdly, after 2,000 years we still cannot objectively agree on scripture. This is why you have so many sects of Christianity, each one thinking their's is correct, with no objective way of resolving who is.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 05:30PM

JimiTime wrote: »

I could attempt to give my two cent on it, but to be honest, its something that I'm still hammering out in my own head. As I said, have a read of Romans to see Pauls reasoning and see what you reckon.

Thank you for your answers. Will try and read as you suggest.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2008 05:42PM

PDN wrote: »

I believe it was John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, who with a characteristic blend of faith and common sense said, "Work as if there was no Holy Spirit. Then pray as if there was nothing but the Holy Spirit."

Wasn't it also Wesley who advocated witch burning - the burning alive of innocent women?

santing · 18-08-2008 07:15PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Wasn't it also Wesley who advocated witch burning - the burning alive of innocent women?

In which he shows himself a man of his times and not a man of God. Wesley was a great preacher, but sometimes he was wrong.

Flamed Diving · 18-08-2008 07:16PM

santing wrote: »

In which he shows himself a man of his times and not a man of God. Wesley was a great preacher, but sometimes he was wrong.

And deeply unchristian, I should hope you think.

santing · 18-08-2008 07:18PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

And deeply unchristian, I should hope you think.

I couldn't say it better.

What are the odds?

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