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'Water is precious' adds

1356

Comments

  • #62
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭dresden8


    If you cut back on water usage that infrastructure still has to be there. Use 100 litres you need a pipe. Use 10 litres, you still need a pipe. If you use less water will they take the pipes away from your house?


  • #63
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    dresden8 wrote: »
    If you cut back on water usage that infrastructure still has to be there. Use 100 litres you need a pipe. Use 10 litres, you still need a pipe. If you use less water will they take the pipes away from your house?

    it costs money to treat the water ldo.


  • #64
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Here in Fingal we've been through the "use less pay less" lie.

    Bin charges were introduced on a pay a tag per bin collected system. Seems fair you might say.

    The only problem being that they have now decided people were not throwing out enough rubbish and buying enough tags. Now we have a flat rate along with bin tags.

    The message being that they want the money. Throw out less if you want, but we want the money. Recycle and compost as much as you want, give us the money.

    You will pay the money.


  • #65
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    taconnol wrote: »
    Please read my signature.

    The actual statistics for water wastage would lie with the local authorities. Afraid DCC's phone line is closed at the moment.
    Okay, let me clarify this:
    1. Take edge cases of extreme water use and pump up the figures, backed up by "environmentalists" who will happily put their names to anything that sounds vaguely green
    2. Spend a few bob on advertising campaign trumpeting your spurious facts and figures, and make no mistake, they are spurious
    3. Set up a new tax on that basis and collect the revenues forever
    4. ???
    5. Profit!

    This is almost as good as that time Bertie tried to hide his thirty grand pay rise by threatening to knock half the drivers off the road.
    taconnol wrote: »
    Water charges have been deferred. They already exist in other EU countries.
    How many EU countries have the same level of abundant rainfall as Ireland? And that is a significant factor.
    taconnol wrote: »
    The astronomical cost is due to government policies that have led to the disgusting increases in property prices. So, can I have a reference for that statistic so I can lamely blow yours out of the water as well?
    Its already been linked on the housing bubble thread, I couldn't be arsed looking it up now. The actual quote from the paper as I recall at the time was "and leaving families struggling under double mortgages". The two houses on either side of me were rented out by private owners last year, with students living in them, now they are social housing, how does that fit in with the legislation about 20% of developments at cost price? The current landlord was able to buy the house at a discount because he heard they were being sold as such.


  • #66
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    What exactly do you think a water tax would be spent on? Importing water from where it's being mined in russia?
    Would you mind linking to the development plan where it shows where charges from water rates will be used to improve the water infrastructure?


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  • #67
    Gran Hermano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,329 ✭✭✭Gran Hermano


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    it costs money to treat the water ldo.

    It also costs us taxpayers money to treat the 20-40% of total water the councils
    loose between the treatment plant and our houses.


  • #68
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    i would support the gov charging people for their water based on usage, why should people have to subsidise some twat that wants to waste a few hundred litres watering his lawn


  • #69
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    darkman2 wrote: »
    I was watching TV and cars floating down a road whilst simultaneously having the radio on.
    The only reason I stay in this country is for such moments of delicious ironing.


  • #70
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭dresden8


    What sort of person wants to pay more tax?


  • #71
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    taconnol wrote: »


    Edit: Just to add, not a lot of people realise but we use water that has been treated to the level that it is drinkable...to flush our toilets and clean our clothes. It's absolutely criminal.

    ...and that's the crux of the whole thing...we spend all kinds of money on purifying ater to a level where it's safe to drink and then everyone bathes in it, washes their car with it, waters gardens with it, the list goes on...chances are the most any person goes through domestically by actually drinking it or cooking with it is maybe 6-7lts max daily.
    Whilst I agree that the ads themselves are somewhat laughable (I wonder how much we're paying for them, and for wages of the morons that thought they were apt given the weather this year), the basic problem remains that wastage of potable water is a huge issue, particularly in places that have seen a lot of housing and appartment developments putting more pressure on infrastructure (which obviously should have been updated alongside the development) and if a metered system, that businesses already have to use, is the only way to cut demand then I can't really see what else to do.
    Some of the posts in here are unreal; I wonder how many of the same people decrying this thing think little of spending 2 quid on a bottle of water every so often...


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  • #72
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Would you mind linking to the development plan where it shows where charges from water rates will be used to improve the water infrastructure?

    I would.


  • #73
    Teutorix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Teutorix


    Watering your lawn (bah such an "americanish" word) in ireland is likely to kill your grass anyway from over watering lol.
    I was in finglas during the floods last weekend and i heard that ad on my grandads radio as i was looking at the water pouring into an old ladies house down the road.

    this country's government hasn't gone to the dogs. It was born there and hasn't ever come out!


  • #74
    dahak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65 ✭✭dahak


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Yeah, and I call bullshit on that report as well. Look at this crap:

    # 99% of the World’s water cannot be used because it is either saline or is locked up in glaciers and ice sheets.
    # Most of the remaining water is present in rocks as groundwater (approx. 0.6%), while just over 0.3% is present in rivers and lakes.
    Exactly none of that applies to Ireland. So I'll be taking this:

    I'm afraid that I would have to disagree with that.
    First the above is not from a technical report it's from a public information website, the idea being to answer peoples question about water and water conservation.
    In fact I would argue that it answers some of the first questions that every Irish person seems to have about water conservation, namely 'Isn't the earth full of it'; 'Isn't Ireland surround by it'.
    The answer to both of the questions is true, it's just that most of the water is not in a potable state.
    Exactly none of that applies to Ireland. So I'll be taking this:
    # A person uses about 150 litres of clean treated water per day.

    With a big pinch of salt. As for the other one, to pick a few at random...

    Hand Wash 12 litres per person per day
    Laundry Wash 40 litres per person per day
    Teeth Brushing 12 litres per person per day

    So I could fill up two of those big five litre jugs from the runoff while brushing my teeth? Utter bollocks. Needless to say, environmentalists would never exaggerate the facts in order to scare people into what they feel is the best course of action. Do you wash your clothes every day? Pah.

    If you look a little closer at the webpage where those figure come from you'd see how they're calculated.


    The first and the last on your list, namely hand washing and brushing teeth come from the water flow from a running tap per minute. This is stated as 6 litres per minute. Thus if the average person runs the tap for one minute each time they brush their teeth and brush their teeth twice a day, that would add up to 12 litres of water for brushing teeth.

    For the hand-washing the same 6 litres per minute seems to be used, so it looks like they're assuming a total of two minutes of hand-washing per day.

    Lastly for laundry, they state that an average washing machine uses 65 litres per wash. If each person uses 40 litres a day for laundry, that's a little over 4 washes a week per person. From my own experience that might slightly on the high side, though not outrageous.

    To be perfectly honest when I saw those figures first I thought they were very high, but when they are broken down they look more reasonable.


  • #75
    Kernel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    dahak wrote: »
    The first and the last on your list, namely hand washing and brushing teeth come from the water flow from a running tap per minute. This is stated as 6 litres per minute. Thus if the average person runs the tap for one minute each time they brush their teeth and brush their teeth twice a day, that would add up to 12 litres of water for brushing teeth.

    For the hand-washing the same 6 litres per minute seems to be used, so it looks like they're assuming a total of two minutes of hand-washing per day.

    Ah Ireland of the future.. the land where we all stink and have black teeth because we can no longer afford to wash or brush our teeth more than once a week. We'll also have gardens full of compost and garbage. Only 5 people in the country will drive a car, so the National Roads Authority will charge people €5 to walk down the street. We'll revert to candles because the ESB has gone up again. Average wait in the A&E will be a week, most elderly will die there - thus saving the government pension money which it wont be able to afford.

    And scamming foreigners and domestic scumbags will still be riding the system! It makes me proud to be a worker bee. ;)

    We need a limit to the burden being placed on the workers to prop the rest of this mess up, more tax for water is not the way to go.


  • #76
    McSandwich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭McSandwich


    In Dublin, Kildare, and Wicklow 20 million litres of treated water are lost to water mains leaks every day! This problem has been known about for at least 20 years yet repair work only started last year. ( http://www.watermainsrehab.ie/files/...essrelease.pdf )

    €130 Milion has been allocated to fixing this problem over the next 10 years (why so long?) which is barely a piss in the ocean considering how precious water is and the money wasted on various follies by our wonderful Government over the past 10 years.

    Water pollution resulting from sewage, industrial waste, illegal dumping, and farm land run off into our rivers and lakes continues to pollute drinking water and kill fish in many parts of the country, e.g. Galway and Ennis where water quality has been an issue since the early '90s. Indeed polluted water is being treated at our expense but afterwards is still only suitable for flushing the toilet. I'd take my chances drinking rain water from a filter jug..

    Water is indeed precious so why is it taking so long to deal with pollution and inefficiency? If the money has been allocated and not spent, then sack the wasters who have have failed to fix the problem and get someone who can sort it out. There are laws in place to deal with polluters, why are they not made pay first? Do we really need these extravagant radio ads (their words) to state the obvious? I doubt too many gardens are in need of more water this week!

    We pay for this nonsense, and the water - it might be an eye opener if we were told exactly how much and as a % of total tax paid...


    Btw, there was already a thread regarding this: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055346715


  • #77
    j1smithy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭j1smithy


    The reason for those ads is that people think water is free and unlimited, which is unfortunate because neither is the case. People see the flooding and say sure theres loads of water, why save it. Go out then and drink a cup of it then!

    Water infrastructure is very very expensive, and upgrading supplys so people can leave the tap running when washing their teeth is not a good use of money in my opinion.

    The treatment of water is also very expensive and difficult. It is very energy intensive as well. If a desalination plant is built, it is quite likely a nuclear power plant will also be constructed.

    The main reason DCC want people to conserve water, is believe it or not there isn't enough. If it pours rain in Dublin it doesn't really matter because the main catchment is in Wicklow. If they extract the amount required from their same sources at the volumes they anticipate they will require in future we will end up with an environmental disaster rather like the dead sea, therefore new sources and reduced demand is needed.


  • #78
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    dahak wrote: »
    If you look a little closer at the webpage where those figure come from you'd see how they're calculated.
    Oh I did, and they are still bollocks. According to them, every single person in the country was going to the jacks four or five times a day, and flushing. Ironically the only time and place that might have been approximately true was during the Galway water crisis, bit of a vicious circle there lads. I just brushed my teeth and I used around 2 litres at most, and I wouldn't call myself frugal with the tapwater either.

    What it looks like they did was they took extreme edge data, like running an old style wide aperature tap full blast (which is worthless for brushing your teeth, since you would spray everything), and took a reasonable sounding amount of time and worked out a figure based on that. Almost every "fact" they cite there is rubbish, plain and simple.

    The abuse of statistics to gain financially is a tried and trusted tactic, but what they are running here is bad science, bad stats, and seethrough advertising at the worst possible time. But if its so patently crap, why are the councils swallowing it wholesale? Cha-ching!

    They could have at least bought us dinner before they tried it.


  • #79
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,691 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    The title of this thread is really annoying me. its "Ads" FFS!


  • #80
    foxhoundone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭foxhoundone


    water is the world,s biggist resourse, oil,s running out! rumour has it they,ve developt an elctric magnetic engine, thev,ve gotta milk the car owner,s to the hilt to develop it on mass.. Canada has the great lake,s,scotland lough ness,ireland lough neah, we are sitting on the BIGGIST natural resouse in the world.....


  • #81
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Seriously the amount of ignorance on this thread about really important issues is really depressing. Globally there is a shortage of water. 1.1 BILLION people lack access to fresh water. foxhoundone, water may be the most abundant resource but you're talking about saltwater. Please try to perform your daily activities with saltwater, instead of freshwater & tell us how you get on. This is a PERFECT example of a single statistic that is true, but conveys an incorrect picture of the situation. Now add in the statistics that only 3% of the water on earth is suitable for drinking. Doesn't look like water is quite so abundant now, does it? Oh right, so we can treat all that water & make it drinkable? Does anyone have any idea how energy intensive the desalination process is? At a time when oil prices have reached a historic high? You bet we'll be paying for our water in future. No such thing as a free lunch.

    We don't just need it in our homes, factories also need clean water, not to mention the huge amount used in agriculture.

    Water pollution is a huge problem in Ireland-60% of our groundwater is polluted & about 20% of our population source their drinking water straight from acquifers. We're literally pissing in our own drinking water. Filthy. Also, people seem to forget that other animals need water (I know, thinking about the needs of things other than humans is difficult....there, there). The pollution of our water does not only affect us but also ecosystems that, if you want to be really anthropocentric about it, are vital for our existance as well.

    Take a look at WWF's report on Ireland's water management from 2003. Not too many happy faces:

    http://assets.panda.org/downloads/wwiireland.pdf


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  • #82
    foxhoundone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭foxhoundone


    it,s the catchment area,s that are in the wrong place, they were built in victorian time,s
    an the rain is falling in the wrong area,s, have you seen the size of lough neagh, upper lough earne, lower lough earn , billion,s of gallon,s of fresh water. my theory is maybe of centre, but the world bank is the only bank that can fund all this,to relocate resovire,s... remember the scot,s had ofshore oil, how much of the profit,s were sent to scotland,s parliment? i,just don,t want to see a natual resourse sqaunderd for share holder,s profit,s


  • #83
    dahak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65 ✭✭dahak


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    dahak wrote: »
    If you look a little closer at the webpage where those figure come from you'd see how they're calculated.

    Oh I did, and they are still bollocks. According to them, every single person in the country was going to the jacks four or five times a day, and flushing. Ironically the only time and place that might have been approximately true was during the Galway water crisis, bit of a vicious circle there lads. I just brushed my teeth and I used around 2 litres at most, and I wouldn't call myself frugal with the tapwater either.

    No according to their figures, the average person uses 27 litres per day on toilet flushing. For old style 9 litre flush toilets that would be three flushes per day and for newer style 6 litre flush toilets it would be a little over four flushes a day on average.
    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    What it looks like they did was they took extreme edge data, like running an old style wide aperature tap full blast (which is worthless for brushing your teeth, since you would spray everything), and took a reasonable sounding amount of time and worked out a figure based on that. Almost every "fact" they cite there is rubbish, plain and simple.

    Look, no offence, but if you're going to dismiss figures offhand like that you at least provide some of your own, just saying they're rubbish doesn't mean anything without something to back it up.
    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    The abuse of statistics to gain financially is a tried and trusted tactic, but what they are running here is bad science, bad stats, and seethrough advertising at the worst possible time. But if its so patently crap, why are the councils swallowing it wholesale? Cha-ching!

    They could have at least bought us dinner before they tried it.

    I agree with you that there is a long history of using tainted statistics for advertising and marketing purposes. Personally I think that advertisers should have to give the error bars or the p values if they quote statistics to prove that their statistics are significant and to give customers an idea of the range of values that they may suspect.

    Now with regards to the issue at hand. First of all the bad science, international figures especially from Western Europe show an average water usage per person of 150 litres a day. Here are the figures form the UK for 1995 -2006. Now are you trying to say that there is an international conspiracy to inflate water usage statistics to bring in 'stealth' taxation? And with the UK data you have to remember that a large proportion of UK households have water meters, which would increase the number of data points that could be used.

    As for bad statistics, the figures given are for an 'average' person. Now for something like this there is probably no single person that fits the 'average'. Some people will use more some people will use less. If it were a big enough population you might expect too find a normal distribution (note I have no idea what the underlying data looks like, so it being normally distributed is pure conjecture on my part).

    I'll agree with you that those adverts running while there was flooding occurring around the country was not the best and may have annoyed people, as it obviously did you.
    It does not however take away from the key points:
    1. Potable water is a scarce natural resource
    2. There is a cost (a large one) to the extraction, purification and supply of potable water
    3. Large reductions in water usage per person can be achieved

    You may have noticed that during the last few years there have been reports of low water stocks in the reservoirs during the summer months (even during the winter in some cases if I remember correctly). There was even talk of extraction of water from the Shannon basin for the Dublin region or of some kind of desalination plant[1]. Potable water shortage in the future is not a myth.

    A good first step in reducing water usage is through public education. The Health Promotions Unit and the NRA have proven that this can be a very effective way in increasing public awareness and the water information adverts seem to be following the same line of thought.

    [1] This would also include projections of population growth in the Dublin region.


  • #84
    DUMBOBLONDE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭DUMBOBLONDE


    Well, I currently run every tap in the house, all day every day. I have been doing this for the last six months.

    Sort of like the catholics in the north used to do.

    Clearly the media propaganda has taken the rest of you lot in. If they are going to tax me for water, well at least I can say that I got my fill in the past.

    And who are these people saying that they would willing pay more taxes if they thought it would be spent correctly. You are living in Disney land my friend.


  • #85
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,520 ✭✭✭axer


    DUMBOBLONDE wrote: »
    Well, I currently run every tap in the house, all day every day. I have been doing this for the last six months.

    Sort of like the catholics in the north used to do.

    Clearly the media propaganda has taken the rest of you lot in. If they are going to tax me for water, well at least I can say that I got my fill in the past.

    And who are these people saying that they would willing pay more taxes if they thought it would be spent correctly. You are living in Disney land my friend.
    and your username DUMBOBLONDE sums up post.


  • #86
    constitutionus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    yup, precious stuff water.

    not like 70% of the planets coverd in the stuff :)


  • #87
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    DUMBOBLONDE wrote: »
    Well, I currently run every tap in the house, all day every day. I have been doing this for the last six months.

    Sort of like the catholics in the north used to do.

    Clearly the media propaganda has taken the rest of you lot in. If they are going to tax me for water, well at least I can say that I got my fill in the past.

    And who are these people saying that they would willing pay more taxes if they thought it would be spent correctly. You are living in Disney land my friend.

    Go away Casey

    Constitutiounus-please please please, go and drink salt water (which makes up 97% of water). Wash your clothes in it. Cook your food in it. Give it to your kids. Wash your car with it. Please.

    dahak-GREAT post


  • #88
    foxhoundone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭foxhoundone


    were did all the taxe,s go that my parant,s paid my grandparant,s paid i,ve paid ??
    water taxation has been delayed up north aswas poll tax(know clearly of the agenda)
    the power,s that be got wind of ur idea d/blonde, it was the tactic,s up north by all working class people


  • #89
    Joseph Kuhr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Joseph Kuhr


    Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink....

    Introducing water taxes will bring down the government. So I guess we'll have to wait for FG to come to office before we see a government stupid enough to do it :-) Oh actually, FF could just get the Greens to do it and take the rap....

    Seriosuly though, they're fixing the pipes and resevoirs and whenever a new development is built they also have to build an underground resevoir (in my area anyways.) but until then, save on water.

    I don't agree wth not flushing the toilet though...thats a step too far. I have one of those annoying new age flushes that only trickles water out. Now thats a waste of water and money, If you're going to have a flusher at least make it flush, otherwise its a total waste and you actually end up using more water because you have to flush over and over and over...

    Soon our cars will be running off water too....then we're truly fooked.


  • #90
    Tefral
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,417 ✭✭✭Tefral


    taconnol wrote: »
    Seriously the amount of ignorance on this thread about really important issues is really depressing. Globally there is a shortage of water.


    You bet we'll be paying for our water in future. No such thing as a free lunch.
    Water pollution is a huge problem in Ireland-60% of our groundwater is polluted & about 20% of our population source their drinking water straight from acquifers. We're literally pissing in our own drinking water.


    ITs unbelievable the amount of ignorance there is in this thread. Im glad taconnol said this.

    I did an indepth study of water in ireland for my dissertation. obviously the majority of posters in here think that just because the planet is mostly water that is grand for us but its not less than 1% is available to drink! the cost of purifying water is astronomical! water fees will be in around 2010 due to EU Regulations.

    Currently dublin is in a water crisis and most of the northern countys have to switch off the mains at night to replenish the water stocks!

    It may suprise readers to to know that currently 50% - 60% of treated water is lost through leaks in the mains. Fingal county council has the lowest leaks averaging 30%. the aim of county and city councils is 25% leakage after this it becomes too uneconomical to repair


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  • #91
    Joseph Kuhr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Joseph Kuhr


    cronin_j wrote: »
    water fees will be in around 2010 due to EU Regulations.

    Its not good enough to divert anger away from the government as we've seen with the water rates for schools fiasco. The government can refuse to introduce the tax, just like they refuse to remove the illegal VRT charge.

    Personally I'd rather use filtered rain water. There'll be big business in installing water capture and filtration systems to homes...


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