'Water is precious' adds

DUMBOBLONDE · 14-08-2008 11:53AM

Of course this is a softeneing up exercise.

Remminder, I pay over 50% of my income to the government. Is it too much to expect a water supply.

To even embrak of such a campaign is crazy, shows how far this society has fallen. They clearly expect the dumb public to swallow anything, and as this thread has proven the save the world types jump on anything.

Madness.

gurramok · 14-08-2008 12:18PM

taconnol wrote: »

Do you have a reference/figures to back that up or is that just your opinion?

Too many bills

beerbaron · 14-08-2008 12:22PM

taconnol wrote: »

Do you have a reference/figures to back that up or is that just your opinion?

The fact that you ask such a question is ridiculous, there are topics all over boards.ie (just search) and the independant media in general regarding soaring rates of tax, implementation of stealth taxes etc.

Dont ask anymore silly questions.

Macha · 14-08-2008 12:26PM

beerbaron wrote: »

The fact that you ask such a question is ridiculous, there are topics all over boards.ie (just search) and the independant media in general regarding soaring rates of tax, implementation of stealth taxes etc.

Dont ask anymore silly questions.

Oh gosh yes, silly little me, asking for a poster to back up their assertions with some solid facts. I'm not about to start using opinions expressed on boards as references for my dissertation, nor waffly editorials in awful newspapers like the Indo.

Don't make anymore stupid comments please.

RuggieBear · 14-08-2008 12:36PM

Water supplies are ****ing expensive.

TBH we will be paying for water pretty soon imo

NinjaTruncs · 14-08-2008 12:49PM

didn't the gov. introduce water charges a few years ago and very few people paid, they were then dropped. the same thing would probably happen again.

i_hate_rain · 14-08-2008 12:52PM

Theres something seriously wrong with the water in our area since the heavy rainfall(we live in a small town in Wexford)
Myself and my sister were violently sick after using it- she only cleaned her teeth with, i drank a glassful at 4 in the morning , the thoughts of it now is making me heave. A lot of our neighbours are making complaints too and nothing has been done, I study chemistry in college and we spent months on water treatment testing etc and the water coming from our tap might as well be from a dirty river!
I went and spent €35 on bottled water because i refuse to let anyone in our house use the tap water.
If they introduced water tax they should use the money to properly maintain whatever what services they already have

foxhoundone · 14-08-2008 01:07PM

did you know that the world bank own,s all the water company,s north and south?
also the mainland and europe? conclustion it,s been privatised by us (the tax payer)
for shipment to other country,s . gas pipe,s can carry more than gas

Kernel · 14-08-2008 04:55PM

darkman2 wrote: »

I was watching TV and cars floating down a road whilst simultaneously having the radio on. As I was watching this that Dublin City Council add came on on radio telling people not to 'water their lawns'. I cannot believe the arrogance and stupidity of these people. They are softening you up for a water tax. They could not be arssed putting in proper resevoirs. Thats the real problem. You can clearly see that in the last 6 days we have probrably had enough water from rain to last us indefinatley. Yet this Bull Sh*t persists. 'Preserve water' - What a fooking joke:mad:

Good man, at least you can see what's going on. Had a big long winded argument against the bin tax before.. Look at the rip-off prices for them now. Council are making a packet out of all this ****e, and the government don't care because they don't have to fork out PAYE taxes to the council as much as they did. The working man is being ****ed up the ass in this country to pay for a plethora of wasters and spongers.

Kernel · 14-08-2008 04:56PM

RuggieBear wrote: »

Water supplies are ****ing expensive.

TBH we will be paying for water pretty soon imo

Why should we suddenly have to pay? Subsidising the cost of putting new waterworks into the boglands?

MagicMarker · 14-08-2008 05:00PM

You have to pay for water over hear in Canada, thankfully it's included in my rent so i don't really know how much. But i assume it's just like any electricity bill. Probably $40 a month or so.

Kernel · 14-08-2008 05:06PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

You have to pay for water over hear in Canada, thankfully it's included in my rent so i don't really know how much. But i assume it's just like any electricity bill. Probably $40 a month or so.

Do you get a rebate for pissing in the toilet so?

axer · 14-08-2008 05:14PM

I think people are missing the point. People are being asked to preserve clean water and not waste it.

Water should be metered in Ireland and people charged for the use of it. People's behaviors would change quickly then.

Kernel · 14-08-2008 05:15PM

axer wrote: »

I think people are missing the point. People are being asked to preserve clean water and not waste it.

Water should be metered in Ireland and people charged for the use of it. People's behaviors would change quickly then.

Why, there's no shortage of it....? We've been having floods all summer! :eek:

5starpool · 14-08-2008 05:23PM

Is water not charged for down the country? I am fairly sure that farmers get charged a fixed price for water connections on their land etc. Maybe that is just above and beyond the normal domestic connection though.....

axer · 14-08-2008 05:26PM

Kernel wrote: »

Why, there's no shortage of it....? We've been having floods all summer! :eek:

It costs money, again, missing the point. Would you drink flood water?

phantom_lord · 14-08-2008 05:51PM

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

It is when you own a well. Pfft. Stupid townies.

lol no it's not. u have to pump the water in from the well, i should know i have one

phantom_lord · 14-08-2008 05:52PM

tracker-man wrote: »

Wha?!
Water is a renewable natural resource, its as free as free gets and rightly so! how can the government expect us to pay for something as plentiful as water. If charges were introduced however, they should only be introduced after a certain amount is used. For example, up until X litres of water in the week is free, for every litre after that, however many cent is charged.

Anywho, just my 2cents

mikewest wrote: »

So who paid for the stuff that falls out of the sky ??

lolz

BroomBurner · 14-08-2008 06:10PM

Water itself is free, but it needs to be treated in order for it to be safe to consume. This is for a number of reasons:
- leachate of agricultural fertilisers and pesticides (the biggest reason in Ireland)
- secondary water from industrial processes which contain heavy metals, etc.,
- Grey water, as previously explained
- Dead animals, etc.
- Waste dumped illegally, both solids and liquids

All of this costs money. Not to mention the chlorine/lime for bacteria/pH balance and flouride (which I personally disagree with) that is added. Also, all of this requires staff, so you have to factor in several wages, at several different levels - engineering, construction, maintenance crew. These waters are then tested on a regular basis, which means more money spent on contractors to take the samples and analyse them, etc.

On where this money comes from, Central Government have been steadily reducing the amount of money they are giving to Local AUthorities and to the EPA, meaning that a lot of services are now being absorbed by other projects that would have received much more funding.

Ireland, while not being able to manage taxes adequately (IMO), we still have some of the lowest income taxes in Europe. I would whole heartedly pay more taxes if I knew the money was going to be spent adequately and efficiently, unlike the current circumstance. I would also be happy to pay for a metered water supply so long as the meter was located in my water tank, or as close as possible to it (otherwise, I would wonder about the cost of leaks...) and also if the service was fair and adequately maintained (i.e. the Galway situation should never arise).

FX Meister · 14-08-2008 06:13PM

boring!

gurramok · 14-08-2008 06:47PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0814/1218477549792.html

IT wrote:

The National Development Plan set aside some €382 million for flood defences but a recent Dáil question tabled by Labour's environment spokeswoman Joanna Tuffy elicited the information that just €16 million was spent in 2005, €14 million in 2006, and €23 million last year.

If they are not spending the money on flood defences, don't hold your breadth on water treatment!

SimpleSam06 · 14-08-2008 07:08PM

taconnol wrote: »

But studies have shown that there is also wastage on the consumer side-to the tune of about 65 llitres per household per day.

faceman wrote: »

The average person in Ireland uses 148l of water a day, much of which is just waste. Studies in Ireland have shown that 5 litres of every 10 produced are wasted through individual negligence and leaking pipes.

I'm calling bullshit on the pair of you. Back that up or gtfo. Having hauled five litre bottles of water during the situation in Galway on a regular basis, I can tell you there is no way in hell I or anyone I know uses that much water daily.

taconnol wrote: »

It is a lack of investment in our facilities that has backed us into the current corner and also partly explains what happened in Galway.

No. The money was there to sort it out, it just wasn't used. The problem was it could only be used to fix the filtration, so it couldn't be funnelled off elsewhere. Ergo, the council never bothered their holes to sort it out until half the city was clinging to the porcelain for dear life. Since general water charges can be funnelled wherever they want, you had better believe the councils will be in favour of it.

As I understand it the water charges question is largely an EU mandated regulation on the principle of "polluter pays", a noble enough aspiration especially in parts of France or Germany where overconsumption of water is a serious issue. One size does not fit all in this situation, however, and a country like Ireland with literally hundreds of millions of litres of water falling from the sky per man woman and child in the country every year should be exempt.

As has already been pointed out, the record tax returns should have been used to improve basic infrastructure like water supplies, electrical generation, and roads (and don't start babbling about transport 21, that isn't going to get finished by 2021). Instead we have a gigantic bloated overpaid public sector we can't get rid of for fear they will cripple the nation, and extra taxes being levied on the back of EU regulations to cover something that our many existing taxes should cover.

Understandably many people are upset at what they see as malfeasance or at best grotesque incompetence on the part of their elected representatives.

Macha · 14-08-2008 07:24PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

I'm calling bullshit on the pair of you. Back that up or gtfo. Having hauled five litre bottles of water during the situation in Galway on a regular basis, I can tell you there is no way in hell I or anyone I know uses that much water daily.

I see your gtfo and raise you a stfu

http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/Water/Pages/WaterConservation.aspx

http://www.globalactionplan.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=98&Itemid=39

Just a quick shower uses up about 35 litres.

The 65 litres figure is from an environmentalist called Jack O'Sullivan who lectured our MSc class on the subject.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

No. The money was there to sort it out, it just wasn't used. The problem was it could only be used to fix the filtration, so it couldn't be funnelled off elsewhere. Ergo, the council never bothered their holes to sort it out until half the city was clinging to the porcelain for dear life. Since general water charges can be funnelled wherever they want, you had better believe the councils will be in favour of it.

If you read the rest of my posts you'd see I agree that the money was there & wasn't used.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

As I understand it the water charges question is largely an EU mandated regulation on the principle of "polluter pays", a noble enough aspiration especially in parts of France or Germany where overconsumption of water is a serious issue. One size does not fit all in this situation, however, and a country like Ireland with literally hundreds of millions of litres of water falling from the sky per man woman and child in the country every year should be exempt.

*sigh* for the absolute last time, you can't just drink the stuff out of the sky. Actually no. I take that back. Please do so & come back to us when you've recovered.

Also, you're slightly mixing things up. The 'polluter pays' principle that was adopted by the EU in the 1970s (yes, 30 years ago) refers mainly to waste & pollution, not to usage of natural resources. Hence the bin charges. It is also being used as a basis for bringing in carbon taxes.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

As has already been pointed out, the record tax returns should have been used to improve basic infrastructure like water supplies, electrical generation, and roads (and don't start babbling about transport 21, that isn't going to get finished by 2021). Instead we have a gigantic bloated overpaid public sector we can't get rid of for fear they will cripple the nation, and extra taxes being levied on the back of EU regulations to cover something that our many existing taxes should cover.

Understandably many people are upset at what they see as malfeasance or at best grotesque incompetence on the part of their elected representatives.

Hear hear. Public service is a total mess. If anyone's seen the film Wall-E, all those fat humans on the ship-as soon as I saw them I thought 'civil servants'

Edit: Just to add, not a lot of people realise but we use water that has been treated to the level that it is drinkable...to flush our toilets and clean our clothes. It's absolutely criminal.

SimpleSam06 · 14-08-2008 07:26PM

BroomBurner wrote: »

On where this money comes from, Central Government have been steadily reducing the amount of money they are giving to Local AUthorities and to the EPA, meaning that a lot of services are now being absorbed by other projects that would have received much more funding.

Maybe if local authorities weren't blowing half their budget on overpriced shoeboxes at premium rates (digging our their developer golfing buddies) to use as affordable housing, and then running crying to central government for more, they wouldn't find their budgets reduced.

Macha · 14-08-2008 07:36PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Maybe if local authorities weren't blowing half their budget on overpriced shoeboxes at premium rates (digging our their developer golfing buddies) to use as affordable housing, and then running crying to central government for more, they wouldn't find their budgets reduced.

That isn't a correct analysis. Firstly, under Part V of the Planning Act 2000, 20% of the houses have to be sold to the local authorities at cost price, not market price. These are the houses that are then used for social and affordable housing.

Secondly, local authorities in Ireland have one of the lowest rates of income & the highest rates of subsidisation from central government in Europe. Their main source of income used to be rates but those were scrapped in the early '80s. It's shameful, but its the reason why local authorities stipulate in planning permissions that a management company must take over the management of estates for eternity so that they don't have to come in & worry about the roads, lighting etc.

SimpleSam06 · 14-08-2008 07:41PM

taconnol wrote: »

I see your gtfo and raise you a stfu

http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/Water/Pages/WaterConservation.aspx

Yeah, and I call bullshit on that report as well. Look at this crap:

# 99% of the World’s water cannot be used because it is either saline or is locked up in glaciers and ice sheets.
# Most of the remaining water is present in rocks as groundwater (approx. 0.6%), while just over 0.3% is present in rivers and lakes.

Exactly none of that applies to Ireland. So I'll be taking this:

# A person uses about 150 litres of clean treated water per day.

With a big pinch of salt. As for the other one, to pick a few at random...

Hand Wash 12 litres per person per day
Laundry Wash 40 litres per person per day
Teeth Brushing 12 litres per person per day

So I could fill up two of those big five litre jugs from the runoff while brushing my teeth? Utter bollocks. Needless to say, environmentalists would never exaggerate the facts in order to scare people into what they feel is the best course of action. Do you wash your clothes every day? Pah.

taconnol wrote: »

The 65 litres figure is from an environmentalist called Jack O'Sullivan who lectured our MSc class on the subject.

Oh, an environmentalist. Well, why didn't you say so. Lord knows they never get anything wrong, especially in the name of saving mother earth. Won't someone think of the dihydrogen monoxide!

taconnol wrote: »

If you read the rest of my posts you'd see I agree that the money was there & wasn't used.

I was responding to that particular post.

taconnol wrote: »

*sigh* for the absolute last time, you can't just drink the stuff out of the sky. Actually no. I take that back. Please do so & come back to us when you've recovered.

Could you point out to me where I said you could? My point was it should be fairly trivial to use the abundance of water we have in Ireland within the budget allocated to the government, rather than putting people on the rack for even more taxes.

taconnol wrote: »

Also, you're slightly mixing things up. The 'polluter pays' principle that was adopted by the EU in the 1970s (yes, 30 years ago) refers mainly to waste. Hence the bin charges.

Bin charges which didn't come in until a few years ago. So what makes you think the water charges haven't been deferred in a similar fashion?

taconnol wrote: »

Hear hear. Public service is a total mess. If anyone's seen the film Wall-E, all those fat humans on the ship-as soon as I saw them I thought 'civil servants'

This much is readily apparent.

taconnol wrote: »

That isn't a correct analysis. Firstly, under Part V of the Planning Act 2000, 20% of the houses have to be sold to the local authorities at cost price, not market price. These are the houses that are then used for social and affordable housing.

Sorry to break it to you, but thats not the reality on the ground, by any stretch of the imagination. Galway county council blew €30 million of their €80 million budget on "affordable housing" earlier this year, and had to run with hand out to central government for the shortfall on all the promises they made. These properties were purchased at full market value.

dresden8 · 14-08-2008 07:59PM

taconnol wrote: »

Do you have a reference/figures to back that up or is that just your opinion?

Well, bin charges are a new form of taxation. Tolls on roads are a relatively new form of taxation here, becoming more widely used and more expensive.
"Voluntary" contributions to schools.

Just three so far, I'm sure some have more to throw in there.

Anyway, we got lower direct personal taxes as part of our national wage agreements. We got right royally suckered there. Do you work for the Dept. of Finance by any chance?

Macha · 14-08-2008 08:29PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yeah, and I call bullshit on that report as well. Look at this crap: <snip>

So I could fill up two of those big five litre jugs from the runoff while brushing my teeth? Utter bollocks. Needless to say, environmentalists would never exaggerate the facts in order to scare people into what they feel is the best course of action. Do you wash your clothes every day? Pah.

Please read my signature.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Oh, an environmentalist. Well, why didn't you say so. Lord knows they never get anything wrong, especially in the name of saving mother earth. Won't someone think of the dihydrogen monoxide!

The actual statistics for water wastage would lie with the local authorities. Afraid DCC's phone line is closed at the moment.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Could you point out to me where I said you could? My point was it should be fairly trivial to use the abundance of water we have in Ireland within the budget allocated to the government, rather than putting people on the rack for even more taxes.

You inferred it here:

however, and a country like Ireland with literally hundreds of millions of litres of water falling from the sky per man woman and child in the country every year should be exempt.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Bin charges which didn't come in until a few years ago. So what makes you think the water charges haven't been deferred in a similar fashion?

Water charges have been deferred. They already exist in other EU countries.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Sorry to break it to you, but thats not the reality on the ground, by any stretch of the imagination. Galway county council blew €30 million of their €80 million budget on "affordable housing" earlier this year, and had to run with hand out to central government for the shortfall on all the promises they made. These properties were purchased at full market value.

The astronomical cost is due to government policies that have led to the disgusting increases in property prices. So, can I have a reference for that statistic so I can lamely blow yours out of the water as well?

tracker-man · 14-08-2008 08:30PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

How do you think the water gets from the reservoirs to your tap?
Think about it.

:rolleyes: The point made in the advertisement and by the OP was that the Gov wants us to PAY for the water, not the pipes reservoirs pumps etc. Of course the facilities need to be paid for but we do that already through tax

thelordofcheese · 14-08-2008 08:48PM

tracker-man wrote: »

:rolleyes: The point made in the advertisement and by the OP was that the Gov wants us to PAY for the water, not the pipes reservoirs pumps etc. Of course the facilities need to be paid for but we do that already through tax

Leaving aside the Ad made no such point and that like everything darkman2 posts it only exists in his head and nowhere else, i'm surprised you think that you can make any kind of difference between the infrastructure and substance carried by the infrastructure and then say "ohh shure tax covers it"!

What exactly do you think a water tax would be spent on? Importing water from where it's being mined in russia?

'Water is precious' adds

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