Flood Response

petergfiffin · 11-08-2008 07:51AM

As a civvie I don't think it's possible to blame any one agency for the failures on Saturday but surely Met Eireann have to take some of the flak. If they had seen what was coming they should have given advance warning to the emergency services which would have allowed enough time to call in extra help from people like the army who if nothing else could have provided extra bodies to man junctions to direct traffic or at least would have had some better vehicles for getting through the floods.

There was a representative on from Dublin City Council (I think) on Saturday and he seemed to think the fact that nobody was dead meant everybody had done a fantastic job, seriously!!!????

The reason nobody was killed or seriously injured was purely luck. I'm not having a go at the bods on the ground cause you can only do the best you can with what you've been given and I think most do a great job under v difficult circumstances but it's about time the powers that be raised their game. I honestly think somebody(s) at the top deserves a good kicking for what happened on Saturday

RANT OVER!!!!

BizPost · 11-08-2008 08:48AM

Still think the council needs to gets a better handle of what resources are out there, what they're capable of and use them. A red cross jeep sitting in a driveway in Finglas could be used locally rather than sitting in a driveway for the night because they haven't been called out.

If it started lashing at 5pm, how long did it take before the Civil Defence were called out? How many jeeps do they have?

Leaving a flooded road unmanned without any markings for over twelve hours while more cars drive into it isn't acceptable. Its putting life and property at risk. Agree Driver stupidity can play a part but that's not going to change overnight. All it would take is a jeep/ car blocking the road. There's enough of organisations willing to help out but just aren't co-ordinated or called out so they don't respond.

Fyr.Fytr · 11-08-2008 11:17AM

Howth coast guard were called out to assist a couple of time the other night see here: http://www.howthcoastguard.com/2008/08/11/howth-coast-guard-assist-in-flooding/

Fyr.Fytr · 11-08-2008 05:53PM

Quick one for paul and any other dfb lads, if flood are predicted could dfb call in lads on o/t and get them to man the reserve motors from the obi, stanley st and no 3 and send them out to pump flood waters.

now i know they dont have the full complement of equipment but all you really need is suction and pumping equipment. Is it possible or does it raise union issues?

Paulzx · 11-08-2008 10:18PM

There are no union issues with having extra personnel called in on overtime to provide extra resouces. Overtime is voluntary and its up to individuals if they wish to come in. There have been events in the past ( the eu summit a few years ago ) where extra manning was brought in to specifically cover an event. Appliances were assigned specifically to the summit amd manned by overtime crews . The Gardai also had DFB ambos assigned to them in case gardai were injured. These were also crewed by overtime.

However, i have never heard of extra crews being pre empted because of a bad weather forecast. Pumping out is generally only effective after the flooding has stopped. During the flooding event it is virtually impossible to pump water out. No pump can cope with the quantitiy of water involved and there is also nowhere to pump it. If the Tolka river is flowing through your front room you can forget about pumping. Resources have to be concentrated on risk to life rather than risk to property

Fyr.Fytr · 11-08-2008 11:23PM

Thanks paulm thought the hse incident response guys were assigned to the guards, didnt know dfb had their hats in the ring too, thanks mate

BizPost · 12-08-2008 08:28AM

Do the Fire Brigade/ Garda lads here think anything more should have been done? eg calling in men on OT as Fyr suggested?

The problem I see with calling in people from all over the place to report to one location is that they in turn get caught up in the floods and it could take them 3 or 4 hours to get there. I guess thats' why the Civil Defence works well as people live near the different stations but how long does it take before they get called in?

Sounds like you can't do a lot with pumping out the water so its Rescue work which you need to have proper equipment like jeeps and training. What depth of water can the jeeps go into?

Paulzx · 12-08-2008 06:12PM

Which jeeps?

civdef · 12-08-2008 06:23PM

What depth of water can the jeeps go into?

Generally it's best to keep the water below the wheel hubs. If you don't know how deep it is, find out before driving in.

Fyr.Fytr · 12-08-2008 06:59PM

Could we have found a use for the ill fated dfb tunnel escort jeeps

opti76 · 12-08-2008 07:08PM

seems to be round 2 of the biblical floods tonight..

Fyr.Fytr · 12-08-2008 07:11PM

Its not ment to be as bad as it will only be heavy showers and not heavy prolonged rain like Saturday but still expect surface water on roads and flash flooding

Eru · 13-08-2008 11:56AM

BizPost wrote: »

Does Dublin seem to fall apart when it comes to organisation in responding to fllooding.

Traffic Control
There was more than the guards needed to warn and divert traffic. Why weren't the army mobilised? As cars were pulled out of flooded roads others just drove straight in.
Rescue
Apparently there are only a dozen drysuits in all of Dublin Fire Brigade across a couple of Fire Engines. They need to be able to deal with sort of stuff a lot quicker and not leave people trapped in cars waiting for an hour to be rescued. Where were'nt some of the lifeboat people called out as they were in the UK last year?

Say no more:P

dub45 · 13-08-2008 05:27PM

Could I go back to keeping the shores clear? I live in Kilmainham (Mount Brown part) and we are flood prone. We have a very close thing on Saturday and only a guy had the hooks to get a manhole cover open we would have had houses flooded. The shores would not take the rain at all.

Now we had some serious work recently on the footpaths getting the water supply overhauled and this no doubt added considerably to the stuff going down the shores but there appears to be no arrangements in place to have shores cleared after such work. There are several shores in the area clearly blocked and there is one on James St hill which I have been asking them to clean for several years now which has weeds growing out of it!

I would also like to mention DCC's ''phone system'' - surely they should have some sort of call management system including a call back so that they know all the areas they are getting calls from? At least if you could leave a message stating the area etc it might stop the system being 'flooded' with calls? When I tried to suggest this on Monday to DCC I was told that they got loads of calls on Saturday!:rolleyes:

If they do not know all the areas that are hit by the floods then how can they hope to address the problems in the areas concerned?

It is sickening listening to these DCC guys on the radio talking about all the equipment they have etc etc What good is that if you cannot get through to them on the phone!
Surely getting help should not be the equivalent of trying to win a prize on a radio phone in!!!

As it stands we have a very serious situation on Saturday including residents putting their own safety at risk to try and get cars to slow down and the authorities are unaware of it. When we rang the gardai in kilmainham for help we were told they were too busy (that I can understand) but there was no attempt to log the call or ascertain the seriousness of the situation.

Eru · 13-08-2008 08:59PM

dub45 wrote: »

Could I go back to keeping the shores clear? I live in Kilmainham (Mount Brown part) and we are flood prone. We have a very close thing on Saturday and only a guy had the hooks to get a manhole cover open we would have had houses flooded. The shores would not take the rain at all.

Now we had some serious work recently on the footpaths getting the water supply overhauled and this no doubt added considerably to the stuff going down the shores but there appears to be no arrangements in place to have shores cleared after such work. There are several shores in the area clearly blocked and there is one on James St hill which I have been asking them to clean for several years now which has weeds growing out of it!

I would also like to mention DCC's ''phone system'' - surely they should have some sort of call management system including a call back so that they know all the areas they are getting calls from? At least if you could leave a message stating the area etc it might stop the system being 'flooded' with calls? When I tried to suggest this on Monday to DCC I was told that they got loads of calls on Saturday!:rolleyes:

If they do not know all the areas that are hit by the floods then how can they hope to address the problems in the areas concerned?

It is sickening listening to these DCC guys on the radio talking about all the equipment they have etc etc What good is that if you cannot get through to them on the phone!
Surely getting help should not be the equivalent of trying to win a prize on a radio phone in!!!

As it stands we have a very serious situation on Saturday including residents putting their own safety at risk to try and get cars to slow down and the authorities are unaware of it. When we rang the gardai in kilmainham for help we were told they were too busy (that I can understand) but there was no attempt to log the call or ascertain the seriousness of the situation.

Do you mean the Gardai didnt log the call or review the situation or are you going back to the councils call system again?

dub45 · 13-08-2008 09:57PM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Do you mean the Gardai didnt log the call or review the situation or are you going back to the councils call system again?

The gardai did not log the call. I never got through to the Council for them to log the call!

Eru · 14-08-2008 12:31AM

dub45 wrote: »

The gardai did not log the call. I never got through to the Council for them to log the call!

Who exacty should the Gardai be arresting in this situation? The offending items that are blocking the drain perhaps?

Bad weather isnt a Garda matter nor are they trained, equiped or mandated to respond to calls concerning blocked drains. A bit of common sense please, Gardai deal with crime.

BizPost · 14-08-2008 10:27AM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Who exacty should the Gardai be arresting in this situation? The offending items that are blocking the drain perhaps?

Bad weather isnt a Garda matter nor are they trained, equiped or mandated to respond to calls concerning blocked drains. A bit of common sense please, Gardai deal with crime.

Hold up there TJ Hooker saying the Guards only deal with crime.

They are also service in the community and bad weather that threathens road closures becomes part of the Garda remit. They have also been involved in everything from saving people's lives to helping old ladies across the road and fair play to them.

dub45 · 14-08-2008 11:44AM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Who exacty should the Gardai be arresting in this situation? The offending items that are blocking the drain perhaps?

Bad weather isnt a Garda matter nor are they trained, equiped or mandated to respond to calls concerning blocked drains. A bit of common sense please, Gardai deal with crime.

Given that I wrote that we had a serious situation ''including residents putting their own safety at risk to try and get cars to slow down'' and followed on in the very next sentence to mention contacting the Gardai and seeking their help I assumed that anyone reading the post would be able to discern that we were seeking the Garda help to deal with the traffic situation.

I was obviously wrong in my assumption:rolleyes:

Paulzx · 14-08-2008 12:06PM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Bad weather isnt a Garda matter nor are they trained, equiped or mandated to respond to calls concerning blocked drains. A bit of common sense please, Gardai deal with crime.

In fairness to dub45 he made reference to the Gardai in connection to a traffic management role not that they were required for flood rescue activities. However, we are still getting back to the fact that individual drivers are stupid enough to drive through floods that are obviously unmanageable for a normal car.

dub45 if you want a call logged with the gardai dial 999. The calls to here are proparly logged and recorded. Ringing direct to a station is no guarentee the call will be recorded.

As regards constantly blocked shores now is the time to start putting serious pressure on DCC to get them unblocked. Get the names of the people you are dealing with and quote them in writing as you complain further up the food chain. Give them names to the local TD aswell.

petergfiffin · 14-08-2008 12:24PM

Not a Guard myself but can a person be done for "driving without due care and attention" if they drive into a puddle and get stuck? I don't mean where there has been a slight misjudgement but where they were obviously never going to make it, especially where the Guards of FB have had to be called to tow them out.

Just curious too if anybody knows if the Garda Mounted Unit were used directly in the flood response as surely they can get through water that even a jeep would struggle with or would the DSPCA have a fit??:eek:

dub45 · 14-08-2008 01:05PM

Paulzx wrote: »

In fairness to dub45 he made reference to the Gardai in connection to a traffic management role not that they were required for flood rescue activities. However, we are still getting back to the fact that individual drivers are stupid enough to drive through floods that are obviously unmanageable for a normal car.

dub45 if you want a call logged with the gardai dial 999. The calls to here are proparly logged and recorded. Ringing direct to a station is no guarentee the call will be recorded.

As regards constantly blocked shores now is the time to start putting serious pressure on DCC to get them unblocked. Get the names of the people you are dealing with and quote them in writing as you complain further up the food chain. Give them names to the local TD aswell.

It wasn't just about stopping them driving through the water at speed it was also about leaving a little extra space for the open manhole.

I rang Kilmainham because they are not much more than 100 yards from where the problem was and I had hoped that maybe one of their cars might be 'local'.

I have been complaining about blocked shores for years! In fact several years ago we were flooded three times in a period of six months. On the very day of the first flooding I happened to ring DCC (before it started raining) to report the problem and I got through to a gentleman by chance who is now in quite a senior position there. His response to my complaint was to ask me what type of dirt was in the shore!!! I kid thee not. You couldn't invent it.

Eru · 14-08-2008 03:02PM

BizPost wrote: »

Hold up there TJ Hooker saying the Guards only deal with crime.

They are also service in the community and bad weather that threathens road closures becomes part of the Garda remit. They have also been involved in everything from saving people's lives to helping old ladies across the road and fair play to them.

Ah so now helping people cross the road and weather is the Gardai's job?

But sure then we need someone too deal with the bit of crime that crops up from time to time, you know, just in case the rain doesnt keep the criminals inside by the fire. What we would need is a group of people, a force of people if you will. Perhaps people that are trained and equiped to deal with crime when it happens. Maybe this group could patrol the streets to reduce crime from happening, respond to violent crime.

Sadly it seems that we dont have anyone for this. Firemen deal with fires and ambulances. Gardai deal with traffic, weather, saving lives and corssing guards as it was put so I guess we need to recruit these people.

Could have sworn that used to be the job of the Gardai though.

PS, People running up and down a road is not dangerous, people do it everyday. As for drivers, big pool + car in the middle = unpassable road. Its not rocket science, you do a u turn.

BizPost · 14-08-2008 03:49PM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Ah so now helping people cross the road and weather is the Gardai's job?

But sure then we need someone too deal with the bit of crime that crops up from time to time, you know, just in case the rain doesnt keep the criminals inside by the fire. What we would need is a group of people, a force of people if you will. Perhaps people that are trained and equiped to deal with crime when it happens. Maybe this group could patrol the streets to reduce crime from happening, respond to violent crime.

Sadly it seems that we dont have anyone for this. Firemen deal with fires and ambulances. Gardai deal with traffic, weather, saving lives and corssing guards as it was put so I guess we need to recruit these people.

Could have sworn that used to be the job of the Gardai though.

PS, People running up and down a road is not dangerous, people do it everyday. As for drivers, big pool + car in the middle = unpassable road. Its not rocket science, you do a u turn.

Inform me TJ who is responsible for directing traffic?

Fyr.Fytr · 14-08-2008 04:00PM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Ah so now helping people cross the road and weather is the Gardai's job?

But sure then we need someone too deal with the bit of crime that crops up from time to time, you know, just in case the rain doesnt keep the criminals inside by the fire. What we would need is a group of people, a force of people if you will. Perhaps people that are trained and equiped to deal with crime when it happens. Maybe this group could patrol the streets to reduce crime from happening, respond to violent crime.

Sadly it seems that we dont have anyone for this. Firemen deal with fires and ambulances. Gardai deal with traffic, weather, saving lives and corssing guards as it was put so I guess we need to recruit these people.

Could have sworn that used to be the job of the Gardai though.

PS, People running up and down a road is not dangerous, people do it everyday. As for drivers, big pool + car in the middle = unpassable road. Its not rocket science, you do a u turn.

Get the reserves to fight the crime leave the full timers to do the real work :pac:

Fyr.Fytr · 14-08-2008 04:04PM

BizPost wrote: »

Inform me TJ who is responsible for directing traffic?

Whole range of people eg those in charge of animals, those on horse back, officers of customs and excise, flagmen at road works, the gardai and many more.

End of the day the guards are understaffed and under resourced to do their primary role of upholding the laws of the land. Sadly as much as they want to they cant be at everyones beck and call, they got to prioritise. Same way the dfb wouldnt respond to your 6in of water in your garden straight away if there was a house fire with persons resported just up the road. There simply isnt the resources in any of the emergency services to respond to all the calls all the time

Eru · 14-08-2008 09:48PM

BizPost wrote: »

Inform me TJ who is responsible for directing traffic?

Traffic lights!

BizPost · 15-08-2008 08:51AM

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Whole range of people eg those in charge of animals, those on horse back, officers of customs and excise, flagmen at road works, the gardai and many more.

End of the day the guards are understaffed and under resourced to do their primary role of upholding the laws of the land. Sadly as much as they want to they cant be at everyones beck and call, they got to prioritise. Same way the dfb wouldnt respond to your 6in of water in your garden straight away if there was a house fire with persons resported just up the road. There simply isnt the resources in any of the emergency services to respond to all the calls all the time

I agree 100%.

Getting back to the point, reality was all over Dublin people were following the person in front into deep water, getting stuck, putting themselves at risk, adding to 1000 calls to the Garda/ FB, stretching resources even more.

Some of this would have been reduced if there was someone placed at to warn traffic allowing the guards to deal with more serious things like Crime and even non crime stuff like co-ordinating missing person search or feeding information on road closures back to the media.

Gardai did the best they could at some places but they will never have the resources to deal with something on the scale of last weekend. Who should fill this Gap I don't know, council/ army/ Civil defence/ reserve defence forces, not the sexiest job but someone needs to do it.

Eru · 15-08-2008 09:41AM

BizPost wrote: »

Who should fill this Gap I don't know, council/ army/ Civil defence/ reserve defence forces, not the sexiest job but someone needs to do it.

Its a mixture of all of them but we have to remember that the council were probable over stretched dealing with this situation as it was due to the amount of floods and blocked roads. Then it takes time to call the army out and Im not sure manning a road closed beacon falls within their remit as they would have to have a Garda with them anyway. Civil defence and reserve defence forces / Gardai are voluntary so they would be either in work or stuck in traffic like everyone else.

No matter what it is if it hits suddenly your going to have a certain deployment time and with flash floods chances are the rain will stop by the time deployment is complete.

BizPost · 15-08-2008 10:45AM

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Its a mixture of all of them but we have to remember that the council were probable over stretched dealing with this situation as it was due to the amount of floods and blocked roads. Then it takes time to call the army out and Im not sure manning a road closed beacon falls within their remit as they would have to have a Garda with them anyway. Civil defence and reserve defence forces / Gardai are voluntary so they would be either in work or stuck in traffic like everyone else.

No matter what it is if it hits suddenly your going to have a certain deployment time and with flash floods chances are the rain will stop by the time deployment is complete.

Yea you wouldn't be calling out people everytime you had a heavy rain shower but only when you're clearly under big pressure with floods.

The same flooded roads were unmanned for over 12 hours with continous car after car rolling into them and the emergency services going to rescue people from them. That's the sort of situation that could be avoided.

A council worker isn't allowed to direct traffic but in reality they were doing so last weekend. The guards/ fire service/ council don't have the resources so they need some other body to help with that task. The army have a heap of motorbikes, send them out to assist.

Problem seems to be as soon as you past the front line no one person seems to know what exactly the vols/army are to do/ meant to do and what resources they have and where.

Flood Response

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