20 Year old Irish man,shot dead by US police

Manic Moran · 25-07-2008 02:20PM

Given that the Grand Jury verdict was unanimous, and the incident was observed by passing citizens who testified, I don't think there's anything more to be said. Some people may disagree with the use of deadly force in such circumstances, but that's far from saying that the police were out of control or abusive.

Three page description:
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/assets/pdf/J0113714724.PDF

Eye-witness report quoted from the above briefing.

As this incident was occurring, Silverton resident, Jeff DeSantis, was driving along Oak Street. Mr. DeSantis did not know either Tony Gonzalez or Andrew Hanlon. Upon seeing Tony Gonzalez's patrol car parked in the street, Mr. DeSantis stopped his vehicle. Mr. DeSantis then looked to his left and saw the beginning of the confrontation between Tony Gonzalez and Andrew Hanlon. Mr. DeSantis had an unobstructed view and was approximately thirty-five feet from Tony Gonzalez and Andrew Hanlon when it began. When Mr. DeSantis first observed them Tony Gonzalez and Andrew Hanlon were at the rear of the two vehicles and Tony Gonzalez had his weapon drawn. He heard Tony Gonzalez repeatedly say, "Get down!" "Freeze!" "Don't move!" "Get down!" Mr. DeSantis said these commands were made several times and were
very clear. Mr. DeSantis then heard Andrew Hanlon make what he described as a "primordial war scream" and start toward the officer, trying to strike and kick him with what appeared to be martial arts moves. Mr. DeSantis describes Tony Gonzalez's retreat from Andrew Hanlon as similar to that of a football player back-peddling and he called it "very professional." Mr. DeSantis heard Officer Gonzalez continue to order Andrew Hanlon to "Get down!" and "Stop!" even while retreating. Mr. DeSantis also saw that despite his retreat,
Tony Gonzalez was never able to get more than five feet from Andrew Hanlon. Mr. DeSantis watched as Tony Gonzalez began to fire his service weapon and he saw that Andrew Hanlon continued to pursue Tony Gonzalez even as Tony Gonzalez fired. It was not until several shots had been fired that Andrew Hanlon began to slow down. Mr. DeSantis saw that Tony Gonzalez stopped firing as soon as Andrew Hanlon stopped coming after him. Mr. DeSantis saw Andrew Hanlon fall to the ground. Mr. DeSantis also saw that Tony Gonzalez never shot Andrew Hanlon when he was not chasing him
and never shot him when he was on the ground.

If Gonzalez was just a normal citizen out for a walk, with a legally held pistol, and then same scenario occured, would this be 'lawful' use, or could he be charged with manslaughter?

Almost certainly 'justifiable homicide' in that case.

NTM

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2008 03:18PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Almost certainly 'justifiable homicide' in that case.

NTM

Rubbish, if you want to stop a man running you break his legs, you don't need to off load 6 shots into the poor chap....

Justifiable homicide my arse....that cop was more than capable of taking him down with out a gun....

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2008 03:29PM

seamus wrote: »

From what I've heard, it sounds like Hanlon was off his head on something

When I was a young monkey I was told if the guards ever chase you and your on Drugs, tell them your on drugs and they have to leave you alone incase they cause you to have a mental breakdown.....not sure is that's true but that's what all my mates believed...

could the sight of a big cop waving a gun around have triggered something inside to make him flip......should the cop have backed off when it was obvious that he was on something, maybe call for a mediator?

Steve · 25-07-2008 03:30PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Three page description:
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/assets/pdf/J0113714724.PDF

Eye-witness report quoted from the above briefing.

Thanks for that - nice to know the facts.

seamus · 25-07-2008 03:32PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

When I was a young monkey I was told if the guards ever chase you and your on Drugs, tell them your on drugs and they have to leave you alone incase they cause you to have a mental breakdown.....not sure is that's true but that's what all my mates believed...

Sounds like a total teenager urban myth.

could the sight of a big cop waving a gun around have triggered something inside to make him flip

Read the reports and the eyewitness accounts. He had already "flipped" before the cops were even called.

Manic Moran · 25-07-2008 05:09PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Rubbish, if you want to stop a man running you break his legs, you don't need to off load 6 shots into the poor chap....

But in order to break his legs, you need to wait until he's in close to you. Which defeats the purpose of trying to get him to stop running, because if he he's so close that you can break his legs, he doesn't need to run any more...

Justifiable homicide my arse....that cop was more than capable of taking him down with out a gun....

We know that is likely the case now. I strongly doubt it was as apparent to the officer at the time he approached Hanlon.

NTM

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2008 05:36PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I strongly doubt it was as apparent to the officer at the time he approached Hanlon.

The fact that he tried to Kung Fu kick him should have made it pretty apparent that he did not have a gun, I don't think at any point did the cop think he was close to death....

There is no way this case is justifiable homicide, at no point did hanlon try and kill anyone...he should have not been shot, there is no excuse...

Steve · 25-07-2008 05:42PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The fact that he tried to Kung Fu kick him should have made it pretty apparent that he did not have a gun, I don't think at any point did the cop think he was close to death....

There is no way this case is justifiable homicide, at no point did hanlon try and kill anyone...he should have not been shot, there is no excuse...

So what would you have done in the same situation.

You have less than 5 seconds to post your reply

4...3...2...1...

/fail - the perp got your gun and just shot three people.

PeakOutput · 25-07-2008 05:48PM

completely justifiable

police (in america anyway) are specifically told to not shoot to wound they are told to aim for the mass. there is a very famous case in america were sharpshooters aimed to wound two hijackers the hijackers both collapsed with wounds in their arms and legs but still got of some more shots in the direction of the police b4 turning the guns on themselves.

aim for body mass. if someone is stupid enough to 'attack' an armed police officer they automatically take the gamble that they will be shot and if they take that one they take a gamble they will be killed. maybe he was off his face on something but again that was his choice not the police officers

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2008 06:04PM

SteveC wrote: »

So what would you have done in the same situation.

wrestle him to the ground and cuff him, the same as any experienced police offer would have done in the same situation....

I'm finding it hard to believe that so many people think the officer was correct, there's always more than one way to skin a cat and none of those ways involves shooting it.....

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2008 06:08PM

SteveC wrote: »

the perp got your gun and just shot three people.

Ohh I wonder where he would have got the gun from, you don't bring a gun to a fist fight....

Manic Moran · 25-07-2008 06:41PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The fact that he tried to Kung Fu kick him should have made it pretty apparent that he did not have a gun, I don't think at any point did the cop think he was close to death....

Rule #1 in a street fight. Don't fight fair.

If your opponent has no weapon, and you have a weapon, use it! There is no telling how good your opponent is at unarmed combat by simply looking at him, he could be a Kung Fu black belt for all you know. There's a 77-year-old, 5' tall grandmother (Keiko Wakabayshi) who wipes the floor with Italian soldiers as part of their unarmed combat training precisely to point out that "No matter how good you think you are, the most unlikely person could be better." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2180451/Italian-soldiers-floored-by-77-year-old-Japanese-woman.html. Can you imagine the furore if some cop shot her? "Cop shoots unarmed 77-year-old woman!" Despite the fact that if she got in close, the cop wouldn't have had a chance.

I for one take this to heart. I do not automatically assume that the combatives training I have received will result in my being the victor against Joe Bloggs on the street.

Given this, your unarmed opponent could attempt to disarm you. He could have a knife slipped in his belt which he could reach for after closing the distance which you allowed him to do because you didn't see anything in his hand.

Because of the circumstances of the approach, Gonzalez drew his sidearm, not his baton or Mace. SteveC probably has it right that by the time it became apparent that Hanlon was unarmed, Gonzalez didn't have the opportunity to change to a different weapon. His choice was 'don't use a weapon' or 'use what you're holding in your hands right now.' A simple choice from my point of view.

I'm sorry, but this 'Monday morning quarterbacking' seems to be done without a proper injection of reality.

Ohh I wonder where he would have got the gun from, you don't bring a gun to a fist fight....

You do if you want to win...

NTM

pirelli · 25-07-2008 07:16PM

Nailz wrote: »

I visited America twice in my lifetime, but I'm not going to return if I had a choice. I find America to be a shìt hole, filled with odd and paranoid people. Ran by republicans, very unwelcoming to any other cultures apart from there own, assuming every muslim is a terrorist, and every body who is tanned and has facial hair is one of them aswell. They're very fake, odd and hatefull people.

... IMO.

They is racist to all races is all.

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2008 07:19PM

So the next time i'm involved in a fist fight I should draw my weapon and shoot every mother fcuker in the place just in case there all packing colt 45's,
better still i'll order in an air strike just to make sure I win...

Speak your mind, but ride a fast horse

pirelli · 25-07-2008 07:34PM

seamus wrote: »

Sounds like a total teenager urban myth.
Read the reports and the eyewitness accounts. He had already "flipped" before the cops were even called.

Im surprised that you all find against him so quickly. Is there any fingerprints from the kelly house. I get a very bad impression from the report that the kellys are just exaggerating. I get the impression that anyone could have been messing about the neighbourhood doing knick knacks. Amercian teens get up to way more mischief than you'd imagine. They love playing pranks.

The report is very incomplete.

If you read the report they did not find Hanlon at the kelly house. The kellys did not identify him. There is no evidence to put him there and it sounds like there should be prints all over that place. Hanlon could have been just sitting nearby minding his own business or sitting on a branch just thinking or acting the maggot.

He is not in the vicinity of the kelly house when:
The cops pullup and yell at him and tell him to get on the ground. He hasn't a clue why they are treating him this way and gets paranoid and upset or very scared. He tries to run away and gets chased and then tries to run in another direction and is shot five times. He dies wondering what was happening.
The witness was probably looking to be mister popular with the police or could be a sex offender looking to get in good with the local sheriff. We don't know, but you can be certain that people lie,and they lie and lie. People love to exaggerate in reports.

The supposed martial arts kick could be him thinking a cop was behind him and running diagonal to the cop that shot him and just be him jumping a kerb or anything.

Fact is, he is the only witness and he is dead.

Manic Moran · 25-07-2008 07:49PM

Im surprised that you all find against him so quickly. Is there any fingerprints from the kelly house. I get a very bad impression from the report that the kellys are just exaggerating.

<snip>

The report is very incomplete.

If you read the report they did not find Hanlon at the kelly house. The kellys did not identify him. There is no evidence to put him there and it sounds like there should be prints all over that place.

Fact is, he is the only witness and he is dead.

Did you read the same report I did? Heck, I quoted the report of one witness, who is currently most assuredly not dead.

As for the fingerprints...

inspection of the Kelleys' front door revealed blood, blood spatter and even skin tissue.

DNA is pretty well accepted as a good way of identifying people. You'd also have to give a door a pretty good battering to leave skin and blood behind. And you can hear the beating on the door in the recorded 9-1-1 call. I don't think I'd be calling the Kelleys exaggerating much.

NTM

seamus · 25-07-2008 08:00PM

pirelli, go read the reports and the eyewitness statements before talking crap.

The Kelleys later identified the person as Hanlon (after his death). A number of witnesses saw Hanlon's conduct towards the cop.

What would any of these people have to gain by lying? And let's steer clear of accusations of corruption and sex offences, because that's just ridiculous.

PeakOutput · 25-07-2008 08:07PM

seamus wrote: »

And let's steer clear of accusations of corruption and sex offences, because that's just ridiculous.

haha i must of missed that part of the thread. us irish never get tired of the old sex offences no matter how seemingly unrelated they are

pirelli · 25-07-2008 08:15PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Did you read the same report I did? Heck, I quoted the report of one witness, who is currently most assuredly not dead.

As for the fingerprints...

DNA is pretty well accepted as a good way of identifying people. You'd also have to give a door a pretty good battering to leave skin and blood behind. And you can hear the beating on the door in the recorded 9-1-1 call. I don't think I'd be calling the Kelleys exaggerating much.

NTM

seamus wrote: »

pirelli, go read the reports and the eyewitness statements before talking crap.

The Kelleys later identified the person as Hanlon (after his death). A number of witnesses saw Hanlon's conduct towards the cop.

What would any of these people have to gain by lying? And let's steer clear of accusations of corruption and sex offences, because that's just ridiculous.

I read the rerports and they did indicate that the person kelly saw was later identified as Andrew Hanlon. I just dont believe it, as she only got a brief look at him for only a brief moment.

The blood on the door ( the report did not state it was hanlons) was put their by Gonzalez . Gozalez had no problem shooting him five times when he was stressed and had no problem putting blood on the door of the kellys either as he was so scared about just killing someone and losing his career. He had no problem bringing some of the paint from Kellys door and wiping it on Andrews clothes as he was dead.

The driver santiaos gave his statement to a police officer and these statemetns gets very polished by the police who have an awful amount of influence of people giving statements.

The witness was 35 feet/yards away and it was dark at night. The cop was moving around, Hanlon moved in one direction. So what! He didn't do as he was told. He might have been deaf.

In fact the only evidence you can rely on is kelleys witness statement, but that is of little value as it was dark and she admits to only briefly seeing the man kicking their door. So a fleeting image of a man that could fit hundreds of thousands of people.

If a person can shoot you 5 times because they want to defend themselves, they can get some blood on their hands and put it on the kelleys door to defend their career. Where does someone like that draw the line. Most people argue that they are dishonest corrupt and utter swines but they wouldn't hurt a fly and the other half claim they kill only when necccessary but wouldn't lie be dishonest and corrupt to save their career.

SHOW ME FINGERPRINTS ON THE WINDOW. They can't fake fingerprints.

Manic Moran · 25-07-2008 08:29PM

pirelli wrote: »

SHOW ME FINGERPRINTS ON THE WINDOW. They can't fake fingerprints.

Well, if you're going to advocate such a cover-up as you do in your post, I might suggest perhaps that Gonzalez could drag Hanlon's lifeless body to the door and plant the fingerprints. Or use a fast-drying latex rubber mould available in your local hobby store (I use it for modelling) to create a cast of Hanlon's fingerprints to place them on the window.

NTM

Davei141 · 25-07-2008 08:31PM

pirelli wrote: »

I read the rerports and they did indicate that the person kelly saw was later identified as Andrew Hanlon. I just dont believe it, as she only got a brief look at him for only a brief moment.

The blood on the door ( the report did not state it was hanlons) was put their by Gonzalez . Gozalez had no problem shooting him five times when he was stressed and had no problem putting blood on the door of the kellys either as he was so scared about just killing someone and losing his career. He had no problem bringing some of the paint from Kellys door and wiping it on Andrews clothes as he was dead.

The driver santiaos gave his statement to a police officer and these statemetns gets very polished by the police who have an awful amount of influence of people giving statements.

The witness was 35 feet/yards away and it was dark at night. The cop was moving around, Hanlon moved in one direction. So what! He didn't do as he was told. He might have been deaf.

In fact the only evidence you can rely on is kelleys witness statement, but that is of little value as it was dark and she admits to only briefly seeing the man kicking their door. So a fleeting image of a man that could fit hundreds of thousands of people.

If a person can shoot you 5 times because they want to defend themselves, they can get some blood on their hands and put it on the kelleys door to defend their career. Where does someone like that draw the line. Most people argue that they are dishonest corrupt and utter swines but they wouldn't hurt a fly and the other half claim they kill only when necccessary but wouldn't lie be dishonest and corrupt to save their career.

SHOW ME FINGERPRINTS ON THE WINDOW. They can't fake fingerprints.

Lmfao. Somebody been watching too much of this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097579/

utick · 25-07-2008 08:37PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

So the next time i'm involved in a fist fight I should draw my weapon and shoot every mother fcuker in the place just in case there all packing colt 45's,
better still i'll order in an air strike just to make sure I win...

Speak your mind, but ride a fast horse

if someone breaks into my place there wont be a fist fight, i will shoot them right there and then.
criminals deserve what they get tbh

pirelli · 25-07-2008 08:47PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, if you're going to advocate such a cover-up as you do in your post, I might suggest perhaps that Gonzalez could drag Hanlon's lifeless body to the door and plant the fingerprints. Or use a fast-drying latex rubber mould available in your local hobby store (I use it for modelling) to create a cast of Hanlon's fingerprints to place them on the window.

NTM

I would need to see the cuts on his hands that caused the blood on the door and a medical opinon. I would need to see finger prints, because if you drag a heavily bleeding body, people are going to see you and it leaves a trail that is hard to cover and there are step's leading to the house. Getting some of his blood on your hands is so simple, and of course the police will visit kelleys before the forensic team get there.

You need to have an open mind when dealing with these incidents.

pirelli · 25-07-2008 08:54PM

Davei141 wrote: »

Lmfao. Somebody been watching too much of this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097579/

Most likely you, as you introduced it. I am very aware, as most people are that police are capable of extreme dishonesty.
Did Saddam Hussein have weapons of mass destruction?
No! and they knew this, but they lied to your face anyway.The police are exactly the same except worse.

humanji · 25-07-2008 09:03PM

But you've delved deep into the territory of conspiracy nuts. They have plenty of evidence that it was him. But for some reason you've decided that real evidence isn't usable in a court of law and decided to make up stuff. Where's all your evidence against the officer? Can I save you some time by saying there isn't any?

a5y · 25-07-2008 09:08PM

This thread has gone so off topic. The only thing it is good for is adding names to my ignore list.

Someone was shot dead a long way from home. I really hope his family don't find this thread, I doubt they'll appreciate the "Let's all play CSI" game, tangental anti-American rants, and gun control "debate" and "I know so much more about guns than you do" circus it has turned into.

Am I the only one who'd like the thread locked?

Steve · 25-07-2008 09:32PM

a5y wrote: »

This thread has gone so off topic. The only thing it is good for is adding names to my ignore list.

Someone was shot dead a long way from home. I really hope his family don't find this thread, I doubt they'll appreciate the "Let's all play CSI" game, tangental anti-American rants, and gun control "debate" and "I know so much more about guns than you do" circus it has turned into.

Am I the only one who'd like the thread locked?

1. Ignoring people is downright rude.

2. Freinds of the deceased have already posted here so rest assured they know about it.

3. If you want it locked then report some posts giving reasons why - I'm sure the AH mods are aware of this threads existence.

4. @pirelli, I am currently folding some tinfoil hats, PM me if you want one.:)

pirelli · 25-07-2008 09:42PM

humanji wrote: »

But you've delved deep into the territory of conspiracy nuts. They have plenty of evidence that it was him. But for some reason you've decided that real evidence isn't usable in a court of law and decided to make up stuff. Where's all your evidence against the officer? Can I save you some time by saying there isn't any?

The statement was a press release and not evidence in a court. The grand jury were to decide if excessive forse was used. They did not question the authenticity of the evidence.

The cop that shot him parked right near to the kelley house.
He would have had to return to the residence to get to his police vehicle and had more than an oppourtunity to plant the blood.

An excerpt from the district attorneys statement.

Upon hearing that Andrew Hanlon was coming down the hill, Tony Gonzalez parked his patrol car near the residence at
606 Oak Street and got out to attempt to locate Andrew Hanlon.

a5y wrote: »

This thread has gone so off topic. The only thing it is good for is adding names to my ignore list.

Someone was shot dead a long way from home. I really hope his family don't find this thread, I doubt they'll appreciate the "Let's all play CSI" game, tangental anti-American rants, and gun control "debate" and "I know so much more about guns than you do" circus it has turned into.

Am I the only one who'd like the thread locked?

By adding names to your ignore list i assume that includes the admins and moderators on the previous page, or do you just want us to keep justifying his death by saying he acted like the fool and deserved to die.

The officer was desperate man who shoots people because he is nervous, why wouldn't he be the brave man and plant the blood while he is standing there and save his career. How did the kelleys identify him, or did they just agree with the police.

pirelli · 25-07-2008 09:46PM

SteveC wrote: »

1. Ignoring people is downright rude.

2. Freinds of the deceased have already posted here so rest assured they know about it.

3. If you want it locked then report some posts giving reasons why - I'm sure the AH mods are aware of this threads existence.

4. @pirelli, I am currently folding some tinfoil hats, PM me if you want one.:)

Ignoring people is polite stevec.
Like I could have ignored you, but instead im going to staple that tin foil hat onto your head. Point proven.

Phototoxin · 25-07-2008 09:51PM

if anyone wants to play csi, the computer games are very good !

inspection of the Kelleys' front door revealed blood, blood spatter and even skin tissue. DNA is pretty well accepted as a good way of identifying people. You'd also have to give a door a pretty good battering to leave skin and blood behind. And you can hear the beating on the door in the recorded 9-1-1 call. I don't think I'd be calling the Kelleys exaggerating much.

Maybe I touched that door - I'm a diabetic , I prick my finger 4 times per day. Skin sloughs off all the time. Tissue is merely a clump of cells ya know..

Also unless you have ALL the facts, which you WONT get from reading the media, you will not know. Also witnesses can and DO get things horribly wrong.

20 Year old Irish man,shot dead by US police

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