20 Year old Irish man,shot dead by US police

Overheal · 16-07-2008 05:22AM

not me - im just an observer

dee_97880 · 16-07-2008 02:43PM

B-K-DzR wrote: »

Until (if we ever) we get the full story you can't say one way or another if it's utter rubbish or not. The fact that a shooting hasn't happened in over 20years should tell us that they don't usually go off shooting at everything but again we don't know enough to make that claim.

Of course i feel bad for the guy and his family but this automatically assuming the cops were in the wrong is absurd. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
Now if it turns out the cop mishandled the situation then by all means throw the book at him.

Its good to keep an open mind in the situation. I thought you may want to look up officer Gonzales though. He was just arrested (and admitted it) for sex abuse of a young girl. I think he has a track record for wrong choices. I have always thought that maybe he had a reason to shoot AJ but I dont think he had a reason to shoot him multiple times. How fast did he have to pull the trigger for that many bullets to hit him before HE hit the ground...I think it was a bit extreme

dee_97880 · 16-07-2008 02:49PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry but this post beggars belief! You have no idea what happened so cannot make any kind of informed judgement on the situation. I've been to the States a good few thimes. I don't love the place like some people do, but its far from the rampantly violent place you;re making it out to be.

As for the story, there's a few things about it that are a bit odd. First there's the psychiatric help thing and second is the fact that they haven't had a deadly shooting in 20 years there. It would suggest to me that maybe the guy had an episode at the wrong time and in the wrong place? I would be reluctant to lay all of the blame at the police officers feet as more often than not the police are decent people trying to do their job. I'd say the officer involved is devastated over whats happened. It will be interesting to see over the next while what actually happened.

My condolences go out to this guys family...

I sure hope he is devestated over the last charges put on him along with killing AJ

dee_97880 · 16-07-2008 02:55PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

If you were the person being run over, you might have a different point of view. In any case, what you consider is pretty irrelevant in this case, as it's a well entrenched principle that police in the US can shoot at a driver if he's using his car as a weapon. Two tons of metal beats soft squishy body any time, and police prefer to go home in one piece.

No, you aim at centre mass of the driver, start pulling the trigger, and keep pulling it until the threat is over. One-shot accuracy does not apply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yubsABVvo9U is a clear example.

I think the chances of being killed by a bottle in a bar fight are less than that of being killed by a car.

Conjecture. There is no such a thing as 'excessive lethal force.' To my knowledge, there has never been a conviction because someone used seven or eight rounds where one or two would have done the job. This is for a couple of reasons. Firstly, if you're shooting someone, you're using deadly force, period. Dead from two bullets is just as dead from a full magazine. The criterion is if deadly force should have been used to begin with, not over 'how dead is dead.' Secondly, as we weren't there, at this time we have no way of knowing what happened after the first two hits. Or four. Or six. There is no set amount of shots someone takes. As I said earlier, once you start pulling the trigger, you keep pulling it as fast as you can accurately do so until the problem goes away. "Shoot to stop." Only then do you check to see if the target is still alive. If so, try and save him. If not, so be it. Now, if you keep shooting after the threat is gone, that's another matter entirely.

NTM

I live in Silverton..We were up when the police responding to the shooting. I thought it was important to add that AJ wasnt in a car, didnt own a car. I have had coffee with him many times at the coffee shop he used to get on the internet. The car was an innocent bystander

AJ got hit several times and the car got in the way. Also please look into Officer Gonzeles he was arrested (admitted to) sex abuse of a young girl. I am afraid me have an ex Marine and Cage Fighter who turned into a cop recently thats not really the type of personality or look that AJ had. I do not think that Cage Fighter Marine types wouldnt like AJ or his group of friends much...much like racist cops do not like all ethnics...

humanji · 16-07-2008 03:05PM

To be fair, sexually abusing a young girl doesn't automatically make you a trigger happy murderer. Granted, it's not looking like the shooting was accidental, but we still don't have the full story on that.

CPT. SURF · 16-07-2008 04:07PM

Hey Overheal,

If you've never handled a gun you wouldn't realize that its not a complete thrill.

I have actually despite your coy and cryptic suggestion that I might not have.

In fact the very first thing you will understand with the first few bullets is that you are in fact holding a very lethal weapon.

Oh really! Wow, I did not know that, thanks so much. You know, most people who have picked up a gun know that. Especially a police officer. Does not stop people from using them though, does it?

Its not a question of being anxious to kill someone. How dare you?

How dare I? Because its my opinion of a situation in which I do not know all the facts. News flash; neither do you. That is exactly why I would not ask someone: "How dare you" have a certain opinion about it. That was your third strike.

No Hollywood-Headshots here, friend.

I aint your friend

It wasn't me! · 16-07-2008 04:55PM

Handbags at dawn?

I'll ref.

Overheal · 16-07-2008 08:16PM

dont feed the troll

CPT. SURF · 16-07-2008 08:50PM

What are you talking about troll? I don't even know what that means anyway. Don't respond to what I actually said though. That is because you got pwned

Nailz · 16-07-2008 08:53PM

I visited America twice in my lifetime, but I'm not going to return if I had a choice. I find America to be a shìt hole, filled with odd and paranoid people. Ran by republicans, very unwelcoming to any other cultures apart from there own, assuming every muslim is a terrorist, and every body who is tanned and has facial hair is one of them aswell. They're very fake, odd and hatefull people.

... IMO.

Dyr · 16-07-2008 08:53PM

CPT. SURF wrote: »

What are you talking about troll? I don't even know what that means anyway. Don't respond to what I actually said though. That is because you got pwned

So you know what pwned means but dont know what troll means? :pac:
I think you just pwn3d yourself there horse

Overheal · 16-07-2008 08:58PM

CPT. SURF wrote: »

pwned

The kid's table is

> that-a-way.

Does not stop people from using them though, does it?

'Does not' certainly, but it helps many exercise more restraint. But I wouldn't label everyone with a firearm 'trigger-happy' either.

Nailz wrote:

I visited America twice in my lifetime, but I'm not going to return if I had a choice. I find America to be a shìt hole, filled with odd and paranoid people. Ran by republicans, very unwelcoming to any other cultures apart from there own, assuming every muslim is a terrorist, and every body who is tanned and has facial hair is one of them aswell. They're very fake, odd and hatefull people.

Dear lord, which part did you visit? Gotta watch out for The Bible-Belt.

CPT. SURF · 16-07-2008 09:03PM

But I wouldn't label everyone with a firearm 'trigger-happy' either.

Neither would I. But in this Silverton case, I am leaning that way.

How dare I? The cheek eh?

Overheal · 16-07-2008 09:11PM

lean away, its fun watching you trip yourself up

CPT. SURF · 16-07-2008 09:17PM

lean away, its fun watching you trip yourself up

Almost as fun as your ingenious plays on words. I am done with you now that I have limited you to such silliness.

pwned

The Mighty Ken · 17-07-2008 01:14AM

Truth is that nobody knows the circumstances yet. I'd imagine the (fairly large) inquiry will answer some questions. Until then, let's bite our tongues. :P

dee_97880 · 17-07-2008 04:40PM

humanji wrote: »

To be fair, sexually abusing a young girl doesn't automatically make you a trigger happy murderer. Granted, it's not looking like the shooting was accidental, but we still don't have the full story on that.

True. If I didnt live in silverton and actaully know both involved I may feel different. The fact that I knew AJ and the officer makes me have my own opinion I suppose. Also with all the other police shootings and excessive force lately it seems like it is getting to be a trend. I do believe that the media has portrayed AJ to be something he was not..built up the story...and I feel they did the same for officer Gonazeles. I was not good friends with either party but have seen them both and talked to them both. As for the sexaul abuse.....that makes him a WHOLE DIFFERENT type of person.

whiskeyman · 25-07-2008 09:11AM

The officer has been cleared of wrongdoing:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlkfaumhkf/

Will be interesting to see the details and evidence that cleared him.

An Oregon grand jury has cleared a police officer who shot dead an unarmed Irishman during a confrontation.

Officer Tony Gonzalez fired at Andrew Hanlon seven times and hit him five times. The family of the 20-year-old victim said Mr Hanlon was mentally ill.

A statement from the Portland district attorney’s office said Officer Gonzalez shot Mr Hanlon while retreating. A witness told authorities that Mr Hanlon had been trying to strike the officer while ignoring commands to stop.

Thirteen witnesses – four police and nine civilians – gave evidence to the grand jury, said deputy district attorneys Matthew Kemmy and Douglas Hanson. Officer Gonzalez was not among them, but a video of his interview with detectives was shown.

Steve Crew, a lawyer representing Mr Hanlon’s family, told The Oregonian newspaper that last night’s ruling was “disappointing and a bit of a surprise for the family”.

Officer Gonzalez, 35, is in jail on unrelated charges after a woman and her daughter accused him of sexually abusing the underage girl several times.

BKtje · 25-07-2008 11:09AM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0725/hanlona.html

Apparently he ran at the officer who thought he had a glass bottle as he stumbled into a recyling bin or something. This all happened after he terroised some people in their home. The guy obviously had a mental problem from the rte story and if it happened as claimed then i too can't see any wroing doing from the officer.

seamus · 25-07-2008 11:15AM

From what I've heard, it sounds like Hanlon was off his head on something. His family and friends described him as having some slight mental problems - from descriptions, it just seemed to be a form of anxiety and depression.

His actions as described to the Grand Jury sound like the actions of a complete raving schizophrenic, or a drunk.

That said, while the shooting may have been "lawful" in the US, it doesn't sound at all like the officer made the right choice. Surely a man with armed and unarmed combat training, as well as self-defence training (as he no doubt has), is well capable of defending himself or incapacitating an attacker.

Shooting should be the last line of defence, not the first.

I'm also curious - he thought Hanlon had a broken bottle. But then he subsequently talked to Hanlon while trying to get him to get on the ground. Surely he had ample time to verify that Hanlon didn't have a broken bottle in his hand?

whiskeyman · 25-07-2008 11:21AM

seamus wrote: »

That said, while the shooting may have been "lawful" in the US, it doesn't sound at all like the officer made the right choice. Surely a man with armed and unarmed combat training, as well as self-defence training (as he no doubt has), is well capable of defending himself or incapacitating an attacker.
.

By 'lawful' and the fact he was cleared - isn't this only the case because he was a police officer?

If Gonzalez was just a normal citizen out for a walk, with a legally held pistol, and then same scenario occured, would this be 'lawful' use, or could he be charged with manslaughter?

seamus · 25-07-2008 11:35AM

whiskeyman wrote: »

By 'lawful' and the fact he was cleared - isn't this only the case because he was a police officer?

Not necessarily. It's possible for one person to lawfully kill another, if they feel their life or the life of someone else is in immediate danger, for example.

The US would be a good deal less hysteric about it than we would, so a citizen shooting someone who is coming at them with a knife would probably be applauded for protecting himself. In this country, they'd be jailed for manslaughter (use of disproportionate force).

In America, they don't actually have manslaughter afaik, just varying degrees of murder.

Overheal · 25-07-2008 11:37AM

Manslaughter, yes, we haves it. I too would like to see the information concerning his case though.

Steve · 25-07-2008 12:00PM

seamus wrote: »

That said, while the shooting may have been "lawful" in the US, it doesn't sound at all like the officer made the right choice. Surely a man with armed and unarmed combat training, as well as self-defence training (as he no doubt has), is well capable of defending himself or incapacitating an attacker.

Shooting should be the last line of defence, not the first.

I'd agree in principle, however, the officer was responding to a call about a crazed lunatic trying to break down a womans door claiming that he had a sword and howling at the moon....
Of course the officer is going to approach the situation with his weapon drawn.

"Officer Gonzalez said he ordered Mr Hanlon to show his hands and get down on the ground. After repeating the command, Mr Hanlon appeared ready to comply.
Instead, he allegedly leaped at the officer, kicking and screaming.
The officer then shot Mr Hanlon."

To me it doesn't look like he had much opportunity to holster his weapon and revert to a non leathal defence - e.g. mace or nightstick.

If it happened as described, I don't think the officer had much choice in how he was to defend himself. He certainly couldn't risk a hand to hand struggle in case his weapon was compromised and the guy started shooting randomly at the 13 witnesses who were there.

bugler · 25-07-2008 12:06PM

When you arm your police, this is what is going to happen (and I'm not stating on opinion on whether armed police are good or bad).

You can bet that Gardai face situations like this every night of the week. They don't have guns, they have to deal with it the old fashioned way.

In America, if you attack or threaten a police officer, you are likely to be shot.

Daithi McGee · 25-07-2008 12:27PM

There was nothing mentioned bar he ran into the bottle bank? He alledgedly tried to knock down a door too (The burglary aspect) and was throwing himself against it so hard that he left blood and skin tissue on the door. He was being pretty mental by the sounds of it. Allegedly the guy knew martial arts and was doing said actions/stuff while being very aggressive towards the officer. He went for the the officer, who then shot him once but the kid still came at the officer. That was the evidence by eye witnesses from what I gather. Can't remember what I was listening to this morning. Think it might have been Newstalk. Sad events by all accounts.

seamus · 25-07-2008 12:33PM

SteveC wrote: »

To me it doesn't look like he had much opportunity to holster his weapon and revert to a non leathal defence - e.g. mace or nightstick.

If it happened as described, I don't think the officer had much choice in how he was to defend himself. He certainly couldn't risk a hand to hand struggle in case his weapon was compromised and the guy started shooting randomly at the 13 witnesses who were there.

Without having seen it first-hand, it is a tough one to call, as it all depends on what kind of timeframe the events took place in.

He went for the the officer, who then shot him once but the kid still came at the officer.

Indeed, he shot him five times in total. Eyewitnesses said that he didn't even react to being shot, which would probably be fairly terrifying for the officer. This is also what leads me most strongly to believe that he was probably completely off his head on something.

drunkmonkey · 25-07-2008 12:39PM

There's no excuse for murder, he was unarmed, the cop was an x cage fighter, if anybody could have controlled the situation without lethal force it was that cop....

If it was a garda this would never have happend, America really needs to have a good long hard look in the mirror....

Voilence breeds voilence, the sooner they realise this the better....

CtrlSource · 25-07-2008 12:48PM

seamus wrote: »

Shooting should be the last line of defence, not the first.

Exactly.

bugler wrote: »

When you arm your police, this is what is going to happen (and I'm not stating on opinion on whether armed police are good or bad).

You can bet that Gardai face situations like this every night of the week. They don't have guns, they have to deal with it the old fashioned way.

While i don't think we have enough info about exactly what happened to second guess the officer, i do agree with bugler - when you arm the police, this sort of thing will obviously be the result.

It's a tragedy that this guy lost his life. It's very very sad for his family. He should have been incapacitated without being shot. The only circumstance where shooting to kill is acceptable is when the target is armed.

The Grand Jury hearing and verdict announcement seem a bit hasty too

Steve · 25-07-2008 01:38PM

seamus wrote: »

Indeed, he shot him five times in total. Eyewitnesses said that he didn't even react to being shot, which would probably be fairly terrifying for the officer. This is also what leads me most strongly to believe that he was probably completely off his head on something.

I would agree.

CtrlSource wrote: »

He should have been incapacitated without being shot. The only circumstance where shooting to kill is acceptable is when the target is armed.

1. If what seamus said is true and shooting him the first time did not incapacitate him, what would you suggest he do? Call him names?

2. Shooting to kill? If an officer has made the decision to shoot, he aims for centre body mass as it is the most effective way of stopping an attacker. This has the unfortunate side effect of hitting a major organ and therefore being lethal. Shooting to wound is only in the movies.

20 Year old Irish man,shot dead by US police

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