Sarkozy: 'The Irish will vote again'

rowlandbrowner · 16-07-2008 10:46AM

humanji wrote: »

Is anyone else going to wait and see what happens before going on an ill-informed tirade against the EU?

ill-informed or not its more a tirade against some pro-yes European politicians, and one in particular in the case of this thread. If I criticised Cowen would you accuse me of an anti-Irish tirade? You do understand that people can be pro-EU while criticising its politicans, systems ect.., lets not adopt the American attitude of "like it or leave it".

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 10:50AM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Can't i just settle for ignoring your piss poor attempt at being clever?

Only if I can ignore your contempt for the good people in AH...

LegacyUser · 16-07-2008 10:51AM

javaboy wrote: »

What are you whining about? In Zimbabwe, they don't get a free vote on anything.

We get two chances to exercise our democratic right to vote probably very close together and people complain?

As an Irish person your voting either way based on anything other than the treaty's content is unacceptable.

Just lol. If we voted yes there would be no second vote to be sure to be sure.Sadly as the goverment said there is no plan B but as the ad says, there is always plan C.

thelordofcheese · 16-07-2008 10:52AM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Only if I can ignore your contempt for the good people in AH...

please, we both know there are no good people in AH. Ourselves included.

javaboy · 16-07-2008 10:54AM

humanji wrote: »

Is anyone else going to wait and see what happens before going on an ill-informed tirade against the EU?

It doesn't look like it. Before the first referendum had even taken place there were people already saying how they were going to vote no to Lisbon: First Blood - part two.

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

ill-informed or not its more a tirade against some pro-yes European politicians, and one in particular in the case of this thread. If I criticised Cowen would you accuse me of an anti-Irish tirade? You can be pro-EU while criticising it you know, lets not adopt the American attitude of "like it or leave it".

You definitely have a point there. I would be very critical of Sarkozy's tactics and of some of the EU politicians in general and you should as you say be able to criticise the EU without being accused of going on an anti-EU tirade.

The thing is there's very little real criticism going on here though. It's a lot of personal attacks on Sarkozy and someone even said he has no right to voice his opinion.

laurak265 · 16-07-2008 10:56AM

Fistly it hasn't been decided that ireland has to vote again...it was suggested that ireland might have to vote again! And if you ask the NO voters why they voted NO they will tell you its because they didn't know what the treaty was about! Or that they didn't understand it....Turns out the NO CAMPAIGNERS were talking ****e!! Ireland is going to loose its EU commissioner for the next 5 years anyway...regardless of Lisbon and our neutrality is not at risk...we aren't the only neutral country in europe you know! So stop with the bullying nonsense and open your eyes...Ireland needs the EU, without it were just a stupid little island between the UK and USA!!

LegacyUser · 16-07-2008 10:56AM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

please, we both know there are no good people in AH. Ourselves included.

Speak for yourselves. :pac:

javaboy · 16-07-2008 10:57AM

Fingers Mc Gee wrote: »

Just lol. If we voted yes there would be no second vote to be sure to be sure.Sadly as the goverment said there is no plan B but as the ad says, there is always plan C.

Why would the government that the Irish people voted into power and who are in favour of Lisbon hold a second referendum after a Yes vote?

Ireland voted for FF led government.
FF is pro-EU and pro-Lisbon.

If Ireland votes for Lisbon, FF government is happy and there is no need for a second referendum.

If Ireland votes against Lisbon, FF government is not happy and might hold a second referendum.

If people don't want a government that is pro-EU, why do they keep voting them in?

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 11:00AM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

please, we both know there are no good people in AH. Ourselves included.

As they say, you get out what you put in...

In other news, did anyone hear abotu the new common language being proposed for the EU?

"The European Union Commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Govt conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year plan for what will be known as Euro English (EE for short).

In the first year - 's' will be used instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly Sivil Servants will reseive this news with joy. Also the hard 'c' will be replaced with 'k'. Not only will this klear up konfusion but keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome 'ph' will be replased with 'f'. This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the third year - publik akseptance of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent 'e' in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go. By the fourth year, people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 'the' by 'z' and the 'w' by 'v'.

During the fifz year, ze unnecessary 'o' kan be dropd from vords containing 'ou' and similar changes vud of kors be aplied to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Ze vil be no mor trubls or difkultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understan ech ozer.

Ze dream vil finali kum tru."

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 11:01AM

javaboy wrote: »

It's a lot of personal attacks on Sarkozy and someone even said he has no right to voice his opinion.

Yeah if you can't respond directly to my comments, don't reference them backhandedly. Cheers.

thelordofcheese · 16-07-2008 11:02AM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

As they say, you get out what you put in...

In other news, did anyone hear abotu the new common language being proposed for the EU?

I see what you did there.

javaboy · 16-07-2008 11:04AM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yeah if you can't respond directly to my comments, don't reference them backhandedly. Cheers.

I said he is entitled to voice his opinion. You said he is not. I disagree with you very strongly on that point.

How's my forehand?

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 11:04AM

javaboy wrote: »

If people don't want a government that is pro-EU, why do they keep voting them in?

Because their stance on the EU is not the only thing people vote for. Besides, the political landscape has changed very recently, I don't see why its so hard for many pro-treaty voices to grasp this.

Call Me Jimmy · 16-07-2008 11:05AM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

please, we both know there are no good people in AH. Ourselves included.

Hey now! People in AH go home to their wives and kids just like everyone else. We play catch with our sons before dinner, dine happily with our families into the late evening and read bedtime stories to our daughters before we kiss them goodnight. Nobody thinks about the men and women behind the avatars. Good upstanding folk that knit the fabric of this country together. Shame on you, cheesy.

Reku · 16-07-2008 11:06AM

javaboy wrote: »

humanji wrote:

Is anyone else going to wait and see what happens before going on an ill-informed tirade against the EU?

It doesn't look like it. Before the first referendum had even taken place there were people already saying how they were going to vote no to Lisbon: First Blood - part two.

You definitely have a point there. I would be very critical of Sarkozy's tactics and of some of the EU politicians in general and you should as you say be able to criticise the EU without being accused of going on an anti-EU tirade.

The thing is there's very little real criticism going on here though. It's a lot of personal attacks on Sarkozy and someone even said he has no right to voice his opinion.

So you can criticise the EU without going on an anti-EU tirade but somehow you consider deciding that you'd vote "no" if there were a 2nd referendum to be akin to an anti-EU tirade? Wonderful logic...

javaboy wrote:

Why would the government that the Irish people voted into power and who are in favour of Lisbon hold a second referendum after a Yes vote?

Ireland voted for FF led government.
FF is pro-EU and pro-Lisbon.

If Ireland votes for Lisbon, FF government is happy and there is no need for a second referendum.

If Ireland votes against Lisbon, FF government is not happy and might hold a second referendum.

If people don't want a government that is pro-EU, why do they keep voting them in?

Because we vote based on how we think they will run the country, not whether they are pro/anti EU. Have to think you're a little thick, either that or you genuinely believe that Northern Ireland should also be forced to join either Britain or ROI depending on which faction gains a majority stake in their government.:rolleyes:

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 11:06AM

javaboy wrote: »

I said he is entitled to voice his opinion. You said he is not. I disagree with you very strongly on that point.

How's my forehand?

Poor. I made fairly definitive statements as to why he is not free to spout whatever comes into his head. You, on the other hand, just said you disagreed. Whats your reasoning?

LegacyUser · 16-07-2008 11:08AM

javaboy wrote: »

Why would the government that the Irish people voted into power and who are in favour of Lisbon hold a second referendum after a Yes vote?

Ireland voted for FF led government.
FF is pro-EU and pro-Lisbon.

If Ireland votes for Lisbon, FF government is happy and there is no need for a second referendum.

If Ireland votes against Lisbon, FF government is not happy and might hold a second referendum.

If people don't want a government that is pro-EU, why do they keep voting them in?

We are pro Europe. We just didn't like the Lisbon treaty. Voting no to Lisbon was not a vote for No to Europe. That was just a spin by the yes camp et al.

grumpytrousers · 16-07-2008 11:10AM

as someone who voted yes to Lisbon last month, i'd have this to say to Mr Sarkozy...'tell you what, mate, go and bring home a yes vote in your own country. When you manage that, i'll take this guff from you. As things stand, you're too chicken to try 'cos you know what your own folk'd tell you to do with Lisbon'

I believe, as i did when i voted, that Ireland is better off if we ratify Lisbon, and that if the same subject matter was put to a vote tomorrow, the issues haven't changed and i should still vote yes.

but a part of me *really* wants to vote No on principle.

Now playing: Neil Young - Like a hurricane
via FoxyTunes

javaboy · 16-07-2008 11:11AM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Poor. I made fairly definitive statements as to why he is not free to spout whatever comes into his head. You, on the other hand, just said you disagreed. Whats your reasoning?

My reasoning is that a person's position. no matter how important or influential it is. should not preclude them from voicing an opinion as long as it's not inciteful, racist etc.

javaboy · 16-07-2008 11:14AM

Fingers Mc Gee wrote: »

We are pro Europe. We just didn't like the Lisbon treaty. Voting no to Lisbon was not a vote for No to Europe. That was just a spin by the yes camp et al.

That's fair enough. I'll accept that point but what's the problem with voting again in another referendum? The government is pro-Lisbon but the people are not so if they get a no in another referendum, they'll quickly change their tune.

You can't expect a pro-Lisbon government not to try their best (ok their best isn't great

) to get it passed.

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 11:15AM

javaboy wrote: »

My reasoning is that a person's position. no matter how important or influential it is. should not preclude them from voicing an opinion as long as it's not inciteful, racist etc.

Its not like hes a bus driver. The voice of President of both France and the European Union has a great deal of weight, so he should voice those sentiments that reflect the reason he is there, elected by the people of France for the express purpose of representing their voices, not as some bawling brigand chieftan. Same rules as apply when wearing any kind of uniform - your behaviour reflects on the organisation.

I don't hold the French people responsible for his outbursts and tirades, mind you. Its not like we never elected an idiot for a leader.

thelordofcheese · 16-07-2008 11:16AM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Hey now! People in AH go home to their wives and kids just like everyone else. We play catch with our sons before dinner, dine happily with our families into the late evening and read bedtime stories to our daughters before we kiss them goodnight. Nobody thinks about the men and women behind the avatars. Good upstanding folk that knit the fabric of this country together. Shame on you, cheesy.

The good people of AH are yanks?
*that* explains alot.

javaboy · 16-07-2008 11:17AM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Its not like hes a bus driver. The voice of President of both France and the European Union has a great deal of weight, so he should voice those sentiments that reflect the reason he is there, elected by the people of France for the express purpose of representing their voices, not as some brigand chieftan. Same rules as apply when wearing any kind of uniform - your behaviour reflects on the organisation.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point I think. Politically and PR-wise I think that people in certain positions should obviously watch what they say very carefully but I still think it is their right to voice their opinion regardless.

I don't hold the French people responsible for his outbursts and tirades, mind you. Its not like we never elected an idiot for a leader.

Common ground

Reku · 16-07-2008 11:18AM

So according to javaboy's (lets just be honest from here on out and call him "EUfanboy":D) drasticly warped logic because we elect people who happen to have a pro-EU stance we have to fall in line and also adopt that same pro-EU stance, we must forfeit our own oppinions for those of the people we elect, yet Sar"dopy" is free to speak as an individual with no consideration to the fact that he is seen to be the representitive voice of those who elected him?:rolleyes:

seamus · 16-07-2008 11:18AM

grumpytrousers wrote: »

'tell you what, mate, go and bring home a yes vote in your own country. When you manage that, i'll take this guff from you. As things stand, you're too chicken to try 'cos you know what your own folk'd tell you to do with Lisbon'

But he did.

As pointed out, his election manifesto was that he would ratify Lisbon without referendum. The French voted him in, therefore the French said Yes to Lisbon.

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 11:21AM

javaboy wrote: »

Politically and PR-wise I think that people in certain positions should obviously watch what they say very carefully but I still think it is their right to voice their opinion regardless.

They forfeit that right when they agree to speak for others. The more people they agree to speak for, the more of that right they forfeit.

javaboy wrote: »

Common ground

Always a good thing.

SimpleSam06 · 16-07-2008 11:22AM

seamus wrote: »

As pointed out, his election manifesto was that he would ratify Lisbon without referendum. The French voted him in, therefore the French said Yes to Lisbon.

Have you read up on the French election? Of some two dozen important points, the EU stance was barely even one. He was not elected for his position on Europe, he was elected for those reasons already outlined earlier in the thread. Europe was very much a side issue.

javaboy · 16-07-2008 11:23AM

farohar wrote: »

So according to javaboy's (lets just be honest from here on out and call him "EUfanboy":D) drasticly warped logic because we elect people who happen to have a pro-EU stance we have to fall in line and also adopt that same pro-EU stance, we must forfeit our own oppinions for those of the people we elect, yet Sar"dopy" is free to speak as an individual with no consideration to the fact that he is seen to be the representitive voice of those who elected him?:rolleyes:

Let's not call me EUfanboy thanks. And let's not call me thick either as you did earlier if you don't mind.

You're missing the point I'm making. If you vote in a pro-EU government, don't complain if they act in a pro-EU manner and try to get Lisbon passed. I didn't say anyone had to fall in line and if you can quote a post where I did, I'll be very surprised.

I also never said we should forfeit our opinions of those we elect. As it happens my opinion of those we elect is quite low. I certainly didn't vote FF at the last general election.

Reku · 16-07-2008 11:24AM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Have you read up on the French election? Of some two dozen important points, the EU stance was barely even one. He was not elected for his position on Europe, he was elected for those reasons already outlined earlier in the thread. Europe was very much a side issue.

Quiet, you'll confuse a certain someone who's convinced all elections are based solely on a person/group's stance towards the EU.:D

Tha Gopher · 16-07-2008 11:25AM

I hope to god the No vote is even higher this time. The mainlanders can go and fcuk themselves. We have already milked the EU for all it is worth in terms of propping up our economy with aid and infrastructure projects throughout the 80s and 90s.

This was aid. We werent selling anything to them, just asking for help. We have had our help. Thanks.

Now, fook off.

Id have voted no only Im not registered. Oddly, in the general election in 2007 two of my workmates from England and Poland received voting papers in the post. The Pole has been here four years and, at the time, the English girl had lived here for 10 months!

Something odd that they are throwing voting papers in the face of EU citizens from abroad but not doing it for young Irish people. I smell a rat.

Of course, the Poles are just realising that the EU establishment are a gang of heartless **** and all
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0709/poland.html

Sarkozy: 'The Irish will vote again'

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