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Are the big EU countries engaged in bullying Ireland's voters?

2»

Comments

  • #32
    Epic Tissue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Epic Tissue


    utick wrote: »
    another shell to sea one, this time the gardai get physical at the end http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtuhvBpEsIU&feature=related

    The camera man there sounds (and acts) like a real jackass to be honest.
    :rolleyes:


  • #33
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    dotsman wrote: »
    A Referendum, in principle, I hold very dear. i.e. people make an informed decision on what's best for the country. But the Lisbon vote was one of the most perverse examples of democracy I can think of. I'm not talking about the result, more as to why people voted (both the yes and no). TBH, I don't think it should be put to referendum, it's a bureaucratic document that affects the internal running of Brussels, and short of putting the masses through a Law degree and giving them a few years experience in politics, the vast majority are not going to understand it themselves and will listen (and possibly allow themselves to be influenced) by any old crap shouted at them.

    Abortion/divorce/death penalty etc are things that people understand and they understand the consequences of how they vote and have a fair (although maybe not 100%) understanding of how it will impact their lives.



    Hold on - it was put to the people. They said 'NO'. What do you not understand about those two letters?


  • #34
    dotsman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    darkman2 wrote: »
    Hold on - it was put to the people. They said 'NO'. What do you not understand about those two letters?

    I understand the definition of the word "no". I understand it's meaning. I understand it consists of the letters "n" and "o" and not the letter "x". How many people who voted "no" (or some who voted "yes") can say the have the same level of understanding when it comes to the treaty?


  • #35
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Thirdfox wrote: »
    I don't want someone who knows nothing (or even worse mis-truths) about something to be deciding my future. And if people aren't willing to inform themselves (that Lisbon Treaty booklet would have taken 15 minutes tops to read) then the privilege of voting should not be extended to them.
    While I agree that people should read / inform themselves, I would also argue that political parties who want people to vote their way should respect their intelligence and engage with them properly, rather than feeding them soundbites of the "Europe is good for you" variety.

    They were taught that lesson once before by the Irish people, but it seems they failed to learn it.

    And hey, I was a "yes", if not an overly enthusiastic one ...

    On the broader issue, what you argue for earlier comes across as "rule of the intelligentsia" ... an at times attractive, but ultimately very dangerous concept.


  • #36
    RATM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    thelordofcheese wrote: »

    Then again i don't scream with incoheriant rage when the topic of a second referendum comes up, seeing as it would be great way to address the concerns people claimed to have about lisbon the first time and see if there is actually a workable solution or is the lisbon treaty actually incompatable with the wishes for the majority of irish people.

    Was it not incompatible the first time? Do you not respect the Irish vote?


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  • #37
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    RATM wrote: »
    Was it not incompatible the first time? Do you not respect the Irish vote?

    Surveys done post lisbon showed a somewhere around 70% of No voters voted that way because they thought "a better deal could be negotiated for", in essence they were holding out for something like the second Nice vote that adressed their concerns either real or imaginary.

    And quite frankly i have no respect for anyone who'd use such a pathetic attempt at a cheap shot like "Do you not respect the Irish vote".


  • #38
    keen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭keen


    ThE_IVIAcIVIAIV wrote: »
    the EU is not such a bully like YORE MA

    This is the worst yore ma joke I've seen and your runing it for the decent people that use it in context.


  • #39
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    In the newpaper last week it was said that the German President and the Czechoslovakian Prime Minister had both refused to sign the ratification documents for their countries. If that is true, doesn't it blow the whole treaty out of the water?


  • #40
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    ART6 wrote: »
    In the newpaper last week it was said that the German President and the Czechoslovakian Prime Minister had both refused to sign the ratification documents for their countries. If that is true, doesn't it blow the whole treaty out of the water?

    Not really.
    The German persident hasn't refused as you suggest, he's been told not to while the german courts are listening to a challenge to the treaty. It'd be downright unlawful for him to sign it befire the courts return their verdict.


    As for the Czech situation, they are not going to ratify it until they hear back from their constitutional court as to the compatability of the lisbon treaty and their constitution.


  • #41
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Not really.
    The German persident hasn't refused as you suggest, he's been told not to while the german courts are listening to a challenge to the treaty. It'd be downright unlawful for him to sign it befire the courts return their verdict.


    As for the Czech situation, they are not going to ratify it until they hear back from their constitutional court as to the compatability of the lisbon treaty and their constitution.

    Thanks for the correction. I have to admit I didn't really read the article carefully or remember it in any detail. Still, it does seem perhaps that the whole business of the Treaty is not yet finished as the EU leaders might like it to be?


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  • #42
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    ART6 wrote: »
    Thanks for the correction. I have to admit I didn't really read the article carefully or remember it in any detail. Still, it does seem perhaps that the whole business of the Treaty is not yet finished as the EU leaders might like it to be?

    Not a bother, but it depends what you mean by finished (not to be pedantic, i'm just trying to understand you).
    If you're refering to it being 'in the bag' so to speak then i don't think either of these represent a significant setback germany is in general very Pro-EU and Pro-Lisbon. The Czech republic on the other hand is a bit less committed, but the parliment seems to be more in favour of it than the prime minister is. I'd be surprised if it didn't pass there, tbh.
    I think that these non eventful stories become more newsworth because it's easy to spin them into a "OMG LISBON IS DOOMED" tale after our vote.


  • #43
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    I think that these non eventful stories become more newsworth because it's easy to spin them into a "OMG LISBON IS DOOMED" tale after our vote.

    Quite agree. That's why I didn't pay too much attention to the article in the first place.


  • #44
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Surveys done post lisbon showed a somewhere around 70% of No voters voted that way because they thought "a better deal could be negotiated for", in essence they were holding out for something like the second Nice vote that adressed their concerns either real or imaginary.


    Source/linky?


  • #45
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Surveys done post lisbon showed a somewhere around 70% of No voters voted that way because they thought "a better deal could be negotiated for", in essence they were holding out for something like the second Nice vote that adressed their concerns either real or imaginary..

    I wonder if such surveys have any value, or are they simply rigged to justify the next action by the politicians? I obviously can't speak for the whole of the NO vote, but my view and that of many people with whom I have discussed the issues was not that we were too dim to understand the treaty. What concerned me at least was:

    1. By removing the need for further referenda and providing for majority decisions it enshrined the "one size fits all" concept of the EU. This has already been damaging to the Irish economy IMHO (interest rates, single currency, carbon policies, etc).
    2. I am extremely uncomfortable with the deluge of regulation that pours out of Brussels, apparently at the whim of unelected civil servants.
    3. I am very, very wary of establishing a military resource that is answerable only to a largely unelected and profoundly undemocratic body, particularly when that body is heavily influenced by the likes of Sarkozy and Merkel, neither of whom have so far demonstrated any leanings towards democracy.
    4. I want to live in a sovereign country that is not dominated by, ruled by, or restricted by a foreign state; one where the people can make their own laws and their own decisions, elect their own representatives and rapidly unelect them again in the case of non-performance.
    5. I want my country to be free to trade in a common market that is run for the good of all members, not in a federal state that sooner or later will control the way that country trades with others outside of that market. Oh I know we have been assured that will never happen -- I also have a firm belief in fairies. Any federal state must control federal taxes in a uniform manner or face financial chaos.

    So, I was never concerned over much by the threat to our neutrality, and I couldn't care less if the political elite do or don't decide to find a formula that will be seen to give Ireland a better deal. I am not overly concerned about the detailed content of the Treaty. I am deeply concerned about the direction the EU is taking, and I do wonder if that had as much to do with the NO vote as anything.


  • #46
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    so what happens if every country in the EU overwhelmingly votes yes, (Its not gonna happen I know) except for 900,000 people in Ireland. does the treaty get ratified, does ireland get thrown out? should the irish be given another choice, vote yes, or vote no to leave the EU?

    I appreciate democracy, but where does democracy stop, at the borders of ireland or of the EU?


  • #47
    fitz0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    An Article 48 shall be inserted to replace Article 48 of the TEU:
    "Article 33

    1. The Treaties may be amended in accordance with an ordinary revision procedure. They may also be amended in accordance with simplified revision procedures.

    Ordinary revision procedure

    2. The government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

    3. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States as provided for in paragraph 4
    The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of reference for a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States.

    4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.

    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    5. If, two years after the signature of a treaty amending the Treaties, four fifths of the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be referred to the European Council.

    Simplified revision procedures

    6. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the Union.

    The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council shall act by unanimity after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    The decision referred to in the second subparagraph shall not increase the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.

    7. Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union or Title V of this Treaty provides for the Council to act by unanimity in a given area or case, the European Council may adopt a decision authorising the Council to act by a qualified majority in that area or in that case. This subparagraph shall not apply to decisions with military implications or those in the area of defence.

    Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union provides for legislative acts to be adopted by the Council in accordance with a special legislative procedure, the European Council may adopt a decision allowing for the adoption of such acts in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure.

    Any initiative taken by the European Council on the basis of the first or the second subparagraph shall be notified to the national Parliaments. If a national Parliament makes known its opposition within six months of the date of such notification, the decision referred to in the first or the second subparagraph shall not be adopted. In the absence of opposition, the European Council may adopt the decision.

    For the adoption of the decisions referred to in the first and second subparagraphs, the European Council shall act by unanimity after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, which shall be given by a majority of its component members.".

    Taken from the Libertas website. This is the main reason I voted no. I am especially worried about point 5 that would take away the unanimous approach to ratification. I don't like the way the EU is going and I especially don't like the way we are being bullied by France and Germany because we took a stand against somethign that is not good for us. Just because the EU has been good for us does not mean we have to lie down and let it walk all over us.


  • #48
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    ART6 wrote: »
    1. By removing the need for further referenda and providing for majority decisions it enshrined the "one size fits all" concept of the EU. This has already been damaging to the Irish economy IMHO (interest rates, single currency, carbon policies, etc).

    I'm still amazed people believe this.


  • #49
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    fitz0 wrote: »
    Taken from the Libertas website. This is the main reason I voted no. I am especially worried about point 5 that would take away the unanimous approach to ratification. I don't like the way the EU is going and I especially don't like the way we are being bullied by France and Germany because we took a stand against somethign that is not good for us. Just because the EU has been good for us does not mean we have to lie down and let it walk all over us.
    +1


  • #50
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    I'm still amazed people believe this.

    You and I are getting into quite an argument about this:D
    In a large federal state, which is what the EU apparently wants to become, we are dealing with countries from the Mediterranean to (nearly) the Artic Circle. We are dealing with a wide range of climates, cultures, and languages, all of whom have their own ideas of what constitutes a society, and many of those have a very different idea of democracy to that which we, with centuries of evolution, understand. We also, more importantly, have a wide range of economies. Some of them are successful due to low labour and tax rates, and some are more established in the European regimes of high taxes, high labour rates, high social costs. Yet somehow the EU, more so now that ever, is supposed to try to reconcile all of those isssues to produce a structure that will apply everywhere. Some are (apparently) determined to hang on to their vision of Europe that maintains their position in it (France?).

    Meanwhile, the developing countries are powering ahead with growth rates we can only dream of, and the EU's answer to that is a bit more regulation, and a financial procedure that supports the increasingly moribund economies of France and Germany -- a central bank interest rate that applies to the lowest common denominator. And the EU paymaster, the US economy, is in trouble.

    So. What's the solution? If I knew that I'd rule the world, but I suspect (note the emphasis) that from the Irish point of view, step one is to withdraw from the Single Currency (which was a political rather than a financial programme in the first place). Step two is to devalue. Tough, but that's where we are. Then take control of our interest rates and our economy. For the first time since Charlie McCreevy we have a finance minister who could do that.

    Go for it thelordofcheese. This is what Boards.Ie should be about?


  • #51
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    I'm still amazed people believe this.


    *ahem* speaking of not believing, and second time of asking, can we have a Source/linky for this quote:
    thelordofcheese wrote:
    Surveys done post lisbon showed a somewhere around 70% of No voters voted that way because they thought "a better deal could be negotiated for", in essence they were holding out for something like the second Nice vote that adressed their concerns either real or imaginary.


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  • #52
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    Bambi wrote: »
    *ahem* speaking of not believing, and second time of asking, can we have a Source/linky for this quote:


    [/I]

    Yup it's in a threadthe European Union forum, and a link to the article it came from is within that.

    Art6, i'll get back to your post later, i'm really busy right now.


  • #53
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Right, y'see what you said was:

    "Surveys done post lisbon showed a somewhere around 70% of No voters voted that way because they thought "a better deal could be negotiated for"

    Survey says:

    "More than 70pc of 'No' voters thought a second treaty would be negotiated. "

    Spot the difference there :pac:. Plus, according to the article, that was a survey conducted by the European Commision, not even commisioned by it. It's hardly an impartial source.


  • #54
    justcallmetex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭justcallmetex


    Once again, this only works if you believe the EU is being led by a group of evil masterminds who are out to get us all. I don't.

    You should


  • #55
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    justcallmetex wrote: »
    Once again, this only works if you believe the EU is being led by a group of evil masterminds who are out to get us all. I don't.

    You should

    Should what? Believe the EU is led by a group of evil masterminds? Works for me:D


  • #56
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    justcallmetex wrote: »
    Once again, this only works if you believe the EU is being led by a group of evil masterminds who are out to get us all. I don't.
    No, I don't, in fact I'm generally pro-EU in principle, if hardly a fanboy.

    I do however think that the bureaucracy are in the driving seat, even more than in the usual western state.

    Whoever writes the EU's version of "Yes, Minister!" will have a bestseller on their hands ... provided they can make it comprehensible to the rest of us!


  • #57
    Plug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭Plug


    ThE_IVIAcIVIAIV wrote: »
    the EU is not such a bully like YORE MA
    I LOL'd:D


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