20 Year old Irish man,shot dead by US police

Overheal · 04-07-2008 12:30AM

visiting the homeland

WalkswithDeath · 04-07-2008 10:06AM

the news is that Andrew was on his way back to his sisters house and knocked at the wrong door and was shot four times . wrong place wrong time. Andrew was a lovely kid very kind and loving
and my heart go's out to his mum Dorothea and the rest of the family.

Dyr · 04-07-2008 10:25AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Id appreciate a less condescending tone next time. Especially considering you added nothing to the debate. They're not sent out on a "shoot to kill" protocol. Otherwise there'd be carnage.

One poster beat me to it.

you're right im not adding to the debate by presenting facts that are completely wrong. :pac:

Manic Moran · 04-07-2008 01:56PM

WalkswithDeath wrote: »

the news is that Andrew was on his way back to his sisters house and knocked at the wrong door and was shot four times . wrong place wrong time. Andrew was a lovely kid very kind and loving
and my heart go's out to his mum Dorothea and the rest of the family.

With respect, this is apparent speculation by Heise. The brother-in-law demonstrated his amazing knowledge of shootouts by pronouncing after viewing the body that he could not tell what direction the shots might have come from, how close the officer was to Hanlon or exactly how many times Hanlon was shot.

"It was really hard to tell," he said. "It was definitely not grouped in one area."

I suggest waiting for the report which is being carried out by an outside agency.

NTM

Tha Gopher · 04-07-2008 02:11PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Hey, since Bush took over with his Texas wild west attitude, it's shoot first and ask questions later (same in Iraq).

Every cop in the US has thia attitude after November 2000?

I have no time for alot of yanks, I find them boring, thick and up their own arse. And they have stupid names. Brent. Randy. Topher. Mary-Beth. Paige. And so on....

But we are outdoing them in their stupidity here. Its big bad American cop gunnin a brotha down, without any of you knowing any circumstance of it.

Kernel32 · 04-07-2008 02:35PM

I called my mother yesterday and first thing she said, "did you hear about that poor Irish boy shot by the police over there". It's wicked annoying to hear this stuff as my own experience for the last 10 years has been great when it comes to safety. I feel a hell of a lot safer living here than I ever did living in Dublin.

All the speculation is just bull until the details are released. Last year there was a case locally where two cops went to a house at the request of a couple who were concerned about their son. He had mental issues and was locked in his room and his parents were very concerned about what he might do to himself. So they entered his house, talked to him through the door and decided it was best to break down the door. They entered the room and subsequently shot him dead. And that is the story that was on the news until the investigation was completed which caused a huge outcry and a lot of speculation. The truth was that the parents failed to tell them he kept a loaded shotgun in his room. When they entered the room he raised the gun as if to shoot them and they drew their weapons and did what they were trained to do. They were cleared of all wrong doing and went back to work.

Manic Moran · 04-07-2008 04:33PM

The truth was that the parents failed to tell them he kept a loaded shotgun in his room.

I can imagine them quoting Burt Gummer from Tremors 2.

"I feel I was denied critical, need to know information!"

NTM

pirelli · 04-07-2008 04:53PM

Kernel32 wrote: »

I called my mother yesterday and first thing she said, "did you hear about that poor Irish boy shot by the police over there". It's wicked annoying to hear this stuff as my own experience for the last 10 years has been great when it comes to safety. I feel a hell of a lot safer living here than I ever did living in Dublin.

All the speculation is just bull until the details are released. Last year there was a case locally where two cops went to a house at the request of a couple who were concerned about their son. He had mental issues and was locked in his room and his parents were very concerned about what he might do to himself. So they entered his house, talked to him through the door and decided it was best to break down the door. They entered the room and subsequently shot him dead. And that is the story that was on the news until the investigation was completed which caused a huge outcry and a lot of speculation. The truth was that the parents failed to tell them he kept a loaded shotgun in his room. When they entered the room he raised the gun as if to shoot them and they drew their weapons and did what they were trained to do. They were cleared of all wrong doing and went back to work.

That might be the case but there are many similar situation to the one you have described where the police have shot and killed people children without any justification.

The following link is of Christopher Drypen the young son of the Drypens and who refused to come out of his basement and would not turn down his music. So the parents called the police after they saw he had a small steak knife with him. The police arrived and the Drypens explained the entire situation in detail. They expected the police would calm him down and talk some sense into him.
So the police stood at the top of the basement stairs and goaded him out of the basement to the bottom of the basement stairs and then shot him 18 times. One officer reloaded his weapon and then continued shooting.

The officers actually lied in their statments claiming the son was on the stairs when they shot him but forensics suggested he was at the botom of the stairs.

The family won $4 million dollars compensation so the officers were not fully believed.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0502/18/A01-94027.htm

Snickers Man · 04-07-2008 04:59PM

It's not justification for the policeman's actions that is the issue here; it is that a seemingly harmless unarmed young man was shot dead.

It wouldn't have happened in Ireland because the uniformed cop wouldn't have had a gun.

Long may they be restricted to nightsticks and fists.

Manic Moran · 04-07-2008 05:16PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

It wouldn't have happened in Ireland because the uniformed cop wouldn't have had a gun.

Long may they be restricted to nightsticks and fists.

Situation dependant. For all we know, the uniformed cop without a gun could be a dead uniformed cop now. I fail to see how that's an improved state of affairs.

Which reminds me, whatever happend the North Strand garda shooting in the end?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0925/dublin.html

NTM

vote4pedro · 04-07-2008 06:39PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've been asking around residents of them thar parts, and the local paper has a picture of a Hyundai Elantra with the back window shot out. A car is considered a deadly weapon, and trying to run over a cop (including in reverse) is liable to get you shot. Of course, it could just have been a car in the background which got hit by rounds which missed, but it's a possibility.

Aside from the fact you're making a pretty big assumption that he was trying to run down the police officer, I wouldn't consider shooting a man to death an appropriate response to someone reversing a car at me.

It wasn't me! · 04-07-2008 06:52PM

He was hypothesising, and wouldn't you use all necessary force, up to and including lethal force, to protect yourself against someone propelling a ton and a half of metal towards you with malicious intent? I would.

vote4pedro · 04-07-2008 08:58PM

If someone's driving a car at you you're far better off, oh I don't know, getting out of the way, or shooting out the tyres than going for a head shot ffs. Do you really think that if a car is reversing towards you the best course of action is to take your time, steadily aim at the back of the drivers seat head rest and kill the driver. And yet people are saying a non-fatal shot is too hard to pull off??!

What next, police responding to a bar fight should shoot to kill as a pool cue or bottle could fatally wound an officer if struck trying to break it up?

05-07-2008 12:07AM

Just to update this thread,

Seven shots is far beyond excessive force,in my opinion

Andrew Hanlon 'shot seven times' by US police

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhgbideykfkf/

04/07/2008 - 08:02:07
Relatives of an Irishman killed by police in the US state of Oregon viewed the body and said he was shot at least seven times.

Andrew James Hanlon’s brother-in-law said the 20-year-old had two gunshot wounds to his left arm, three wounds to his abdomen, one on his thigh and one in the back of his shoulder.

“It was definitely not grouped in one area,” Nathan Heise told the Statesman Journal.

Viewing the body “offered some closure to the ongoing grieving process, but it was definitely very upsetting to both of us,” said Mr Heise, who is married to Mr Hanlon’s sister Melanie.

News of the shooting in this quiet agricultural town in the heart of Oregon’s Willamette Valley spread quickly in Ireland, where Mr Hanlon’s mother went on the radio yesterday and accused police and prosecutors of holding back information.

“We’re not getting any answers because they’re closing ranks on us,” Dorothea Carroll said in an interview Thursday with RTE Radio One’s Liveline in Dublin.

“As his mam, I’m being kept out of the loop. Nobody’s telling me anything.”

Mr Heise said Ms Carroll is expected to travel to Oregon within the next few days.

“No mother and no family expects to lose a 20-year-old son,” she said. “Nobody expects that. And to lose a son is one thing,” Ms Carroll continued, her voice breaking, “but to lose a child, literally to be blasted away, to be shot to death, I mean my God, it’s a violent end. It’s a violent end.”

Mr Hanlon was shot and killed late Monday evening by Officer Tony Gonzalez, who was responding to a reported burglary in progress.

Mr Heise said Mr Hanlon would come banging on their door at times in the middle of the night, and they would let him in to sleep.

The Heises speculated that Mr Hanlon took a wrong turn Monday night and started banging on doors on a different street, scaring residents.

Someone called police, reporting a burglary, and one or more officers confronted Mr Hanlon, Mr Heise said.

Mr Gonzalez is on administrative leave during the multi-agency investigation, which is routine.

Marion County District Attorney Walt Beglau said no information will be released until the investigation is complete.

However, he added that he has been in touch with the Irish Consulate and is willing to meet Mr Hanlon’s family to explain the investigative process.

Ms Carroll said she had e-mailed the Silverton Police Department and the Marion County District Attorney’s office, but did not get a reply.

“Nobody will speak to me and tell me anything,” she said on the radio programme.

About 70 people protested at the Silverton Police Department on Wednesday.

Ms Carroll, who lives in France, was in Ireland visiting her other son when she received word of Mr Hanlon’s death.

Mr Hanlon had been living with his mother in France and attending art school when he went to visit his sister in Silverton a year ago.

Ms Carroll said her only officials contact from Silverton came from Mayor Ken Hector, who knew Mr Hanlon and was very distressed.

Mr Hanlon had been in Silverton for about a year and had overstayed his six months visitor’s visa.

Manic Moran · 05-07-2008 12:57AM

I wouldn't consider shooting a man to death an appropriate response to someone reversing a car at me.

If you were the person being run over, you might have a different point of view. In any case, what you consider is pretty irrelevant in this case, as it's a well entrenched principle that police in the US can shoot at a driver if he's using his car as a weapon. Two tons of metal beats soft squishy body any time, and police prefer to go home in one piece.

vote4pedro wrote: »

Do you really think that if a car is reversing towards you the best course of action is to take your time, steadily aim at the back of the drivers seat head rest and kill the driver.

No, you aim at centre mass of the driver, start pulling the trigger, and keep pulling it until the threat is over. One-shot accuracy does not apply.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yubsABVvo9U is a clear example.

What next, police responding to a bar fight should shoot to kill as a pool cue or bottle could fatally wound an officer if struck trying to break it up?

I think the chances of being killed by a bottle in a bar fight are less than that of being killed by a car.

Seven shots is far beyond excessive force,in my opinion

Conjecture. There is no such a thing as 'excessive lethal force.' To my knowledge, there has never been a conviction because someone used seven or eight rounds where one or two would have done the job. This is for a couple of reasons. Firstly, if you're shooting someone, you're using deadly force, period. Dead from two bullets is just as dead from a full magazine. The criterion is if deadly force should have been used to begin with, not over 'how dead is dead.' Secondly, as we weren't there, at this time we have no way of knowing what happened after the first two hits. Or four. Or six. There is no set amount of shots someone takes. As I said earlier, once you start pulling the trigger, you keep pulling it as fast as you can accurately do so until the problem goes away. "Shoot to stop." Only then do you check to see if the target is still alive. If so, try and save him. If not, so be it. Now, if you keep shooting after the threat is gone, that's another matter entirely.

NTM

It wasn't me! · 05-07-2008 03:13AM

vote4pedro wrote: »

If someone's driving a car at you you're far better off, oh I don't know, getting out of the way, or shooting out the tyres than going for a head shot ffs. Do you really think that if a car is reversing towards you the best course of action is to take your time, steadily aim at the back of the drivers seat head rest and kill the driver. And yet people are saying a non-fatal shot is too hard to pull off??!

What next, police responding to a bar fight should shoot to kill as a pool cue or bottle could fatally wound an officer if struck trying to break it up?

First, your job is to protect both yourself and the public. If you just get yourself out of the way, you haven't removed the threat to the public, as this guy has now demonstrated he's resolved to using his car as a weapon.

Second point is that shooting out tyres will not stop a car completely. Shooting the driver or the engine block is the accepted method of stopping a vehicle. If the car is reversing at you, in most cases, engine block is out. Driver it is so. And centre-mass of the driver, not his headrest. You centre and fire as fast as possible while retaining accuracy until the threat is over. In this case, that means until the car stops moving. The phrase "shoot to kill" is alarmist and misrepresentative of what actually happens in these situations. Bullets are, by their nature, pretty damn dangerous. They are also a fantastic way of stopping somebody from doing something, like shooting you or another person. Unfortunately, a side effect of this efficacy is that the person affected by the bullet often dies. Police officers do not shoot to kill. They shoot to end a situation. To aim for hands or feet or earlobes or wherever else someone would rather they were shot is to shoot to complicate, because the last thing I want in my life or in my vicinity is a person who's demonstrated a lack of restraint, and who is now wounded, and therefore unpredictable.

vote4pedro · 05-07-2008 10:29AM

My God you both sound like Gareth from the Office. Cringey stuff.
Why doesn't every car chase in the US end in the driver being shot dead so?

It wasn't me! · 05-07-2008 01:27PM

Because most of them don't involve the use of the car as a deadly weapon against the police or an armed member of the public?

This is all conjecture, because we don't know what happened here, but we've moved away from the original subject and are now discussing hypothetical events, which may be somewhat insensitive given that the friends and relatives of the dead man are clearly aware of this thread.

To them, I offer my condolences.

dee_97880 · 08-07-2008 02:27PM

ThE_IVIAcIVIAIV wrote: »

the shame, what an ****in idiot cop i hope he dies.whats the world coming to? and maybe he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time... and didn't rob anybody. and having mental problems is no reason to be shot. and sure the cop wouldn't have known about his probs.... poor family.

We live in a town of 7000. EVERYONE knows about EVERYONEs prob. The police new AJ. AJ's death was a decision made by 1 man not by the entire community. If we believed that AJ was a threat to our community there would not have been a protest done by the residents of Silverton.

dee_97880 · 08-07-2008 02:42PM

DesF wrote: »

Hang on.

The sister was on the rayjo this morning.

Apparently the dude was being treated for psychological problems.

Maybe he gave the policeman cause to shoot?

Maybe he gave the policeman cause to shoot? Maybe. Gave the policeman cause to shoot several times? I dont think so. AJ was unarmed so what cause could there have been? I live in Silverton...I knew AJ...I also know the policeman....(I have no criminal history, single working mom)...from my own personal dealings with AJ or Gonzales I would have to say AJ died because the police think they are above the law. Silverton police tend to think they are patroling New York City not a small town of 7000 where we all know everyone. In the past I have said to my friends that I have a hard time teaching my kids respect for police while living in Silverton...I have been here for 7 years and have never experienced the "cockiness" or "better then you" attitude from any other police department. Where I come from police officers think of themselves as "one of us" you can visit with them, joke with them, rely on them, respect them. It was one thing to watch excessive police force on TV..it is an entirely different feeling to live in a town where it is happening. R.I.P AJ. I hope that something good comes of this horrible situation...perhaps Silverton police department will relize they are not above the law.

sam34 · 14-07-2008 06:35PM

just heard on six-one that the cop involbed has been arrrested on suspicion of child sex abuse, a young girl has made an allegation against him

humanji · 14-07-2008 08:18PM

My spider sense is tingling. It's a little convenient that this would happen just as the townsfolk are out for his blood...

sam34 · 15-07-2008 05:08PM

have to agree the timing is questionable

Manic Moran · 15-07-2008 05:39PM

dee_97880 wrote: »

Maybe he gave the policeman cause to shoot? Maybe. Gave the policeman cause to shoot several times? I dont think so. AJ was unarmed so what cause could there have been?

Show me a statute which says that 'in this situation you can shoot once, and only once.'

It may have been the case that the use of deadly force was not required, but do not confuse that with thinking that the force was excessive because you do not like the manner in which it was carried out.

NTM

CPT. SURF · 15-07-2008 07:35PM

I don't know about this one. The police story is starting to sound fairly dodgy to me. I mean they catch armed and dangerous men on the streets of LA and NYC everyday (murderers, drug dealers, rapists, GTA, etc.) I am thinking they were a litlle trigger happy up there in Silverton-the middle of bumf**k nowhere.

Manic Moran · 16-07-2008 02:11AM

humanji wrote: »

My spider sense is tingling. It's a little convenient that this would happen just as the townsfolk are out for his blood...

Cropped up on an Oregon forum.

"Also it seems convinient that these sex abuse charges appeared just now. "

Yes and no.

In some cases the victim doesn't report the incident since its her (or his) word against that of a fine upstanding officer of the law. However, when said officer gets his name in the media as possibly not so fine and upstanding, the victim may feel that perhaps now their claim may be given more credibility.

This sort of thing has happened before.

NTM

Overheal · 16-07-2008 04:59AM

CPT. SURF wrote: »

I don't know about this one. The police story is starting to sound fairly dodgy to me. I mean they catch armed and dangerous men on the streets of LA and NYC everyday (murderers, drug dealers, rapists, GTA, etc.) I am thinking they were a litlle trigger happy up there in Silverton-the middle of bumf**k nowhere.

How does that make any sense? Man Im Bored Lets Kill Someone?

If you've never handled a gun you wouldn't realize that its not a complete thrill. In fact the very first thing you will understand with the first few bullets is that you are in fact holding a very lethal weapon. Then you have to consider that firing at paper targets on the police range is a whole lot different to firing at a live person, with an identity. Its not a decision that anyone takes lightly, much less a trained Police Officer.

Its not a question of being anxious to kill someone. How dare you?

Regarding the clip capacity and the 7 bullet-wounds lets just take a look here: I don't know what size clip the officer had but the average is 12+1 bullets. Now I have had the privilege to fire a 9mm Beretta on the gun-range and from a rate of fire perspective, you can empty that clip in about 4-5 seconds (again, probably less, with training); and with enough training (I had not) can get reasonable accuracy at ranges beyond 25 feet: which is about the width of your average 2 lane road. So using a full clip on an armed suspect (as in this case he was, with a vehicle) really begins to sound reasonable.

And from your GTA/LA/NY point of view, its very easy to survive from bullet wounds, and in some cases function depending on the location. I believe there was a documentary on Sky One way back showing an LA gangster and the 20-30 something bullet wounds he had racked up during his young life: a lot of which were from drive-bys were the attacker was trying to kill him, and kill him good.

You don't just have to stop a suspect; you have to stop them fast. And it can take upwards of a few bullets to do that. No Hollywood-Headshots here, friend.

dee_97880 · 16-07-2008 05:10AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Cropped up on an Oregon forum.

NTM

You can look it up in legal documents its public info. He admitted to it. Funny you mentioned though because I thought the same until he admitted to it. I would rather a cop shoot someone then sexually abuse a kid...if they have to do either.

Overheal · 16-07-2008 05:13AM

dee_97880 wrote: »

You can look it up in legal documents its public info. He admitted to it. Funny you mentioned though because I thought the same until he admitted to it. I would rather a cop shoot someone then sexually abuse a kid...if they have to do either.

Disturbing. I suppose now people will try and say the Irish kid found out and was driving away to report him :rolleyes: strike me down if its true.

dee_97880 · 16-07-2008 05:20AM

Overheal wrote: »

Disturbing. I suppose now people will try and say the Irish kid found out and was driving away to report him :rolleyes: strike me down if its true.

LMAO!!! Yeah that prob what he doing...

AJ was a nice kid though despite what they are portraying him to be. We knew him. I am a little sad that my teenage daughter most likely knows the girl. Had he not admitted to it I would have thought someone was trying to get him in more trouble...makes me feel like an ass for even thinking it now.

20 Year old Irish man,shot dead by US police

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