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Architectural Technology - Representation

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  • #92
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    Mellor I think that perhaps you'd find if all of the 1600 joined the RIAI we'd only be at around 1/3 of the numbers, I believe they currently have aorund 3000 members, May start declining a bit with the current recession, Personally I think it would be very slow to change, whats wrong with CIAT it is 100% for Technicians, in Ireland its 100% Irish and wouldn't have a conflict of interest like the RIAI has. It also has international status and about 6000 or 7000 other members around the world (ok mostly in england) If 500 or 1600 Irish technicians joined CIAT today they might be in a position to have a full time manned office in Ireland which a lot of us seem to want. If we give CIAT some more teeth by getting more numbers on board I think we'd all see more benifit a lot quickly than from the RIAI route but in truth sitting on the fence is pointless at this stage. Pusedo tech seems to think there was some magic solution arrived at in Portlaoise, there wasn't, whatever routes we choose as individuals there's pain and effort involved along the way. If you'd like to get involved in one any or all of the possible groups I'm sure there's people here who can point you in the right direction but bashing the people who are already trying very hard may not be the right way to go it, if you dont like the direction one is going choose another one a see what you can do.


  • #93
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    No6 wrote: »
    Good stuff Topcatcbr, have fun with the POP record, I'm still in the middle of mine that hardest part I've found is finding the time to do it and remembering what jobs I did years ago and then geting access to the records that fit some of the sections better that some of my more recent ones.

    Pm me your details


  • #94
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    pseudo-tech are you a fee paying member of a professional org. If so im sure they would be glad of any assistance you can give them in resolving these issues.


  • #95
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    I see the debate continues to blossom.

    As you know No.6, I think this tread / forum is something that grew out of our Portlaoise meeting.

    10 applied to IBCI, as they are acceptable to AIB. Some, in IATGN had already applied!
    All cheques were returned.

    We are independent self employed members of IATGN. We met because the Committee refused to tackle the AIB issue. I feel this decision will harm the IATGN especially when a membership fee is introduced. I feel It failed to meet the AIB challange and failed to represent their self employed members!

    Why did the IATGN close the forum on the night of our meeting? We are all educated people, so make your own mind up.:confused:

    This forum is an extremly important asset, allowing us to freely debate the issues. Communication at a national level is very important.
    I want information to be passed on, to all involved. I'm tired of the Cold War secrets attitude, the in-fighting, the "them and us" arguments etc.
    I hope this forum can be positive and achieve more.

    We at Portlaoise meeting intent to contact the Law Society, continue our contacts with the Past Presidents of the IBCI, contact the Cabinet and AIB etc to achieve proactive progress.

    Many at Portlaoise decided to join CIAT.
    Unfortunately we ran out of time, at the meeting (3.5 hours!) so we were unable to asign roles and set achievement dates.
    We may need to meet again.


  • #96
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    The one org open to all arch tech is the CIAT and in my view is the way to go. This is after alot of deliberating and assessing the merits of both orgs. I would need to wait a year before being eligable for the entrance exam to RIAI and some might say this swayed me. and this is true but not because i am taking the easy option as the pop record may take longer than this for tech membership of CIAT. But because I realise how restrictive (exclusive) the RIAI tech is. This along with the Eliteist attitudes of the RIAI tech members as displayed during the "Potential members meeting" in DIT last friday.


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  • #97
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,913 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    although i wasnt there topcatbr, can i assume you are probably talking about riai tech members disapproving of membership of graduates of 'non-accrediated construction studies' type courses??


  • #98
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    although i wasnt there topcatbr, can i assume you are probably talking about riai tech members disapproving of membership of graduates of 'non-accrediated construction studies' type courses??

    You assume correctly. and other Architectural technology courses


  • #99
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    although i wasnt there topcatbr, can i assume you are probably talking about riai tech members disapproving of membership of graduates of 'non-accrediated construction studies' type courses??
    topcatcbr wrote: »
    You assume correctly. and other Architectural technology courses

    Lads remember this forum is still bound by the over all boards rules and comments about external bodies should be honest.

    I was there the other night, and they don't disprove of non-accredited courses. It doesn't stop you getting in, it just takes longer.
    To me this makes sense, as the ten or so courses in the country are not equal (and by varying amounts). Some, were accredited and let this slip away, they are just below he min level and if they bothered they could easily get back in.

    I think assessing each course on its merits is the best way to maintain standards.




    On the other hand, CIATs approach does annoy me.
    People with degrees from irish colleges have to go the long way to Chartership. Which is bullshit imo. They base thier requirements on the national framework. But their is no direct relation between the UK and the republic framework.
    We use different naming here and we suffer. Most three years courses here are level 7 (bar a small few I believe). In the UK, the 3 year AT degrees are level 8. So, even though my degree may be just as good, I am not afforded the same respect by the CIAT. Infact, it may even be better than the lower band.

    This is one reason why I think an international org is not ideal.
    Irish and UK members are not equal as of yet.
    Of course its catch 22, if they were equal, they'd have more members, if they had more members, they have an irish office and maybe could assess the situation equally.


  • #100
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    Mellor wrote: »
    Lads remember this forum is still bound by the over all boards rules and comments about external bodies should be honest.

    I was there the other night, and they don't disprove of non-accredited courses. It doesn't stop you getting in, it just takes longer.
    To me this makes sense, as the ten or so courses in the country are not equal (and by varying amounts). Some, were accredited and let this slip away, they are just below he min level and if they bothered they could easily get back in.

    I think assessing each course on its merits is the best way to maintain standards.




    On the other hand, CIATs approach does annoy me.
    People with degrees from irish colleges have to go the long way to Chartership. Which is bullshit imo. They base thier requirements on the national framework. But their is no direct relation between the UK and the republic framework.
    We use different naming here and we suffer. Most three years courses here are level 7 (bar a small few I believe). In the UK, the 3 year AT degrees are level 8. So, even though my degree may be just as good, I am not afforded the same respect by the CIAT. Infact, it may even be better than the lower band.

    This is one reason why I think an international org is not ideal.
    Irish and UK members are not equal as of yet.
    Of course its catch 22, if they were equal, they'd have more members, if they had more members, they have an irish office and maybe could assess the situation equally.


    The courses may not be equal but the individuals ability may this is why you have an exam to prove this

    10 years waiting is bull**** imo. It proves nothing. It only serves to restrict membership.

    You complain about the CIAT not treating your level 7 award the same as their uk level 8. Its a bit of a contridiction considering you defend the RIAI position for not treating Irish level 7 awards equally. The education framework is what we have to work with for better or worse.


  • #101
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    10 years experience seems crazy.

    RIAI Tech should have approved a number of courses by now.
    They should have an exam, open to all, that sorts out the admission.
    Maybe ones grade would dictate one grade in the organisation before full membership ie 40 % graduate 12months to full membership, 60% Associate member 6 months, 61% plus automatic full member!

    CIAT are Technologists for Technicians but the entry is mixed up.
    Its a fact that our education system produces better Technicians than the equivalent course time in UK. This was tru in the 80's when our National Certificate was far superior to UK Higher Nat Cert.

    CIAT should understand these differences and act appropiately.

    I am quite intrigued why RIAI Tech members seem to recommend the CIAT?
    I noticed this at our Portlaoise meeting and on these pages.
    Why do RIAI Tech members do this?
    If they don't believe in or can't change their organisation then maybe they should leave it altogether.

    I doubt the the IATGN policy of joining RIAI Tech & CIAT to "Change them from within, learn from them and influence them", will work.

    Once you join one, or both will you have the stomach to join another organisation? Membership takes a bit of work!:)


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  • #102
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    The courses may not be equal but the individuals ability may this is why you have an exam to prove this

    10 years waiting is bull**** imo. It proves nothing. It only serves to restrict membership.
    The first point is a very good one.
    And I agree that 10 is too long. (remeber you can still count years in collage so its 7 post grad)
    I think 5 post grad is reasonable
    You complain about the CIAT not treating your level 7 award the same as their uk level 8. Its a bit of a contridiction considering you defend the RIAI position for not treating Irish level 7 awards equally. The education framework is what we have to work with for better or worse.
    I don't see how its a contradiction.
    The RIAI don't assess based on the level, they assess each on its own merits. Regardless of level. This is good imo.

    The CIAT use a blanket system that doesn't work internationally, the levels is a national standard. There is little or no relation between the two. This is bad.
    If most our level 7s (including the unaccredited by RIAI) were in the UK they would be level 8.
    I'm not asking for CIAT to treat all courses equally, i'm asking to consider it based on its merits and compare by standard, not a poxy number.

    What is CIATs position on irish level 8 degrees??

    A number of people who have worked in both the UK and irish markets have said that some of the irish courses are much higher than UKs courses, a person in work attended a uk accredited course and he says that his course wasn't great and he had to learn most by expierence.


    I don't expect any professional body to treat all courses equally, but at the same time I think that blanket rules are idiotic (example, the SEI)


  • #103
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    RKQ wrote: »
    10 years experience seems crazy.


    I doubt the the IATGN policy of joining RIAI Tech & CIAT to "Change them from within, learn from them and influence them", will work.

    Resistance is futile, You will be assimilated.:D


  • #104
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The above sounds a bit of a rant, and is not by intention,

    but to look at it the other way, you complain that RIAI makes it harder for uncreddited courses, which they do.
    But CIAT does the same, it takes longer for full membership from an uncredited course.

    At least RIAI gives every course a chance, an opportunity to be accredited. CIAT for some reason just don't accredit ROI courses, which is frustrating.
    And it goes deeper than just the level 7 part, I checked with CIAT, and WITs level 8 is uncredited. That extra year in college makes no difference, those extra subject is DIT to go from diploma to degree, nothing.


    While I agree that an architects body isn't ideal, a UK one isn't either.


  • #105
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    RKQ wrote: »
    RIAI Tech should have approved a number of courses by now.They should have an exam, open to all, that sorts out the admission.
    Maybe ones grade would dictate one grade in the organisation before full membership ie 40 % graduate 12months to full membership, 60% Associate member 6 months, 61% plus automatic full member!

    CIAT are Technologists for Technicians but the entry is mixed up.
    Its a fact that our education system produces better Technicians than the equivalent course time in UK. This was tru in the 80's when our National Certificate was far superior to UK Higher Nat Cert.
    Apparently, 10 years ago, there were 4 courses, and 4 were approved.
    Now we have 10 courses and 2 are approved.

    Only the colleges to blame. To be honest, I feel bad for the courses that are just below accreditation, the newest courses are not set up right and are dragging them down.



    As for the "our education system produces better Technicians than the equivalent course time in UK",
    I agree completely, I said so above, but I just type slower ;)


  • #106
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    Mellor wrote: »
    CIAT for some reason just don't accredit ROI courses, which is frustrating.
    I agree that an architects body isn't ideal, a UK one isn't either.
    I agree Mellor.

    It always seemed strange that both organisations are so difficult to join, for varying reasons. I want to join and expect abit of work.. but both seem to want you to jump thru hoops and make it "overly" difficult to join.

    I have qualifications so I don't expect to have to explain them or have them validated. I think this elitism can be off putting and denies both organisations of young blood.

    I appreciate high standards but dispise elitism, scratch my back, wink wink attitude.

    Lets dream of an Organisation with an Irish office, clear concise admissions policy, based on qualifications, experience and high standards. Great PI, reference documents, libruary, regular CPD all over Ireland, highly sought after Social events, meeting facilities, professional back-up, informative monthly magazine covering Ireland, UK and Europe Construction Sectors etc

    Keep it simple


  • #107
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    Mellor wrote: »
    The first point is a very good one.
    And I agree that 10 is too long. (remeber you can still count years in collage so its 7 post grad)
    I think 5 post grad is reasonable

    I dont agree. I think 2 years experience + exam is more than sufficient for a tech grade membership.
    Mellor wrote: »
    On the other hand, CIATs approach does annoy me.
    People with degrees from irish colleges have to go the long way to Chartership. Which is bull**** imo. They base their requirements on the national framework. But their is no direct relation between the UK and the republic framework.
    We use different naming here and we suffer. Most three years courses here are level 7 (bar a small few I believe). In the UK, the 3 year AT degrees are level 8. So, even though my degree may be just as good, I am not afforded the same respect by the CIAT. Infact, it may even be better than the lower band.


    Mellor wrote: »

    I don't see how its a contradiction.
    The RIAI don't assess based on the level, they assess each on its own merits. Regardless of level. This is good imo.

    I agree we are not treated equally but this is down to our educational framework. Hons degrees are gen 4 years. Full membership is rarely granted after ord degree level 7 in ireland or uk to any construction professional org.
    If the DIT course is better (it may be, I dont know)than the rest then why is it not an Hons degree level 8.

    We have a National framework of qualifications which is there to grade different courses so that they can be compared to each other in term of educational award. The content from course to course may vary but the objectives remain the same.

    The fact is that most professional represintitive bodys respect this. Wether the RIAI recognise this does not change your educational standard, reflected in tech grade membership. DIT course is still a level 7


    Mellor wrote: »

    The CIAT use a blanket system that doesn't work internationally, the levels is a national standard. There is little or no relation between the two. This is bad.
    If most our level 7s (including the unaccredited by RIAI) were in the UK they would be level 8.
    I'm not asking for CIAT to treat all courses equally, i'm asking to consider it based on its merits and compare by standard, not a poxy number.

    (example, the SEI)

    A british body is unlikely to give prefferential treatment to an irish qualification over their own. No matter how much better it is.
    Mellor wrote: »

    What is CIATs position on irish level 8 degrees??

    Irish Level 8 degrees have yet to be acreddited.
    However they can go directly to MCIOB without going to TCIOB first. They still have to complete pop record and professional interview.
    Mellor wrote: »
    A number of people who have worked in both the UK and irish markets have said that some of the irish courses are much higher than UKs courses, a person in work attended a uk accredited course and he says that his course wasn't great and he had to learn most by expierence.

    A british body is unlikely to give prefferential treatment to an irish qualification over their own. No matter how much better it is.
    Mellor wrote: »
    I don't expect any professional body to treat all courses equally, but at the same time I think that blanket rules are idiotic (example, the SEI)

    I agree with this in relation to SEI. Traditionally Arch Techs were on a par with other building professionals eg. Engineers, Building Surveyors, Quantity Surveyors, Etc. This is changing as we have allowed ourselves to be downgraded due to lack of representation and educational qualifications. I would link one with the other.

    We have the skills but we lack the educational qualification. We need to get part time courses up and running to upgrade our qualification to level 8 min.

    We also need to mobilise our various rep bodies to let the banks law society and anyone else who counts that we are responding to these challanges.

    We will not be religated to the non professional scrapheap.

    We are not Cad Technicians.


  • #108
    pseudo-tech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭pseudo-tech


    Topcatcbr, I agree with you last post relating to having the skills but lacking the educational qualification. Do we really need a part-time course, for what? How many lecturers would you know that would be capable of lecturing someone with 5+ post-grad years of experience? They would run for the hills, (those that cannot do, lecture). Experience plus your 3-year diploma, should at this stage be acceptable and recognised by all the representing bodies.
    In relation to your comment in relation to “mobilising our various rep bodies to let the banks and law society” know about our predicament I would suggest that this is a waste of time. The RIAI do not want to know, the IATGN were asked over a year ago to make contact by numerous people and sent allegedly a single letter to the law society that was not responded to. It is strange though how the academics on the IATGN committee are communicating with the law society to recognise degrees in Architectural Technology while snubbing all the graduates, that graduated before the degrees were introduced. I still believe that the only show in town is the CIAT who are showing true interest in our predicament. For the record, I am a profile member currently filling in my pop record.

    Again, for the record, I believe that is why RKQ and his apostles met in Portlaoise to try to break down this wall that has been placed before us without a reaction from the people who we were led to believe were working at protecting our interests.
    Have anyone recently heard from the IATGN about what they are doing or not doing and when they propose to put back in place the only positive thing associated with them, their forum?


  • #109
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    I dont agree. I think 2 years experience + exam is more than sufficient for a tech grade membership.
    So you suggest that the only "extra" for unaccredited courses should be just an exam.
    Is that for all people from unaccredited courses, or just AT courses.


    I agree we are not treated equally but this is down to our educational framework. Hons degrees are gen 4 years. Full membership is rarely granted after ord degree level 7 in ireland or uk to any construction professional org.
    If the DIT course is better (it may be, I dont know)than the rest then why is it not an Hons degree level 8.
    You are missing the point, in ireland hons degrees are 4 years, in the UK they are 3 years, (sometimes with a year out). This is the key.
    The DIT course (and the WIT, and probably other courses also) are level 7 because they are 3 years in the ROI. 3 year degrees are almost always ordinary level here, but in the they are not. A 3 UK year degree can be considered for acreditation by CIAT

    We have a National framework of qualifications which is there to grade different courses so that they can be compared to each other in term of educational award. The content from course to course may vary but the objectives remain the same.
    Yes compared nationally, not internationally.
    Level 7 degrees in the ROI are ordinary, this can be compared from subject to subject and course to course within ireland,
    But in the UK, 3 year degrees can be level 8 hons. So ther is no comparisment between our framework and theirs.

    A british body is unlikely to give prefferential treatment to an irish qualification over their own. No matter how much better it is.

    Nobody asked for prefferential treatment, that would be absurd
    Equality was all that was asked for. The CIAT is a UK body, but bare in mind the claim to have ROI centre, and importantly then absorbed the irish equivalent body. Irish members pay the same fee as uk members.
    Irish Level 8 degrees have yet to be acreddited.
    However they can go directly to MCIOB without going to TCIOB first. They still have to complete pop record and professional interview.
    They can't go directly to MCIAT (i'm guessing you meant this). It has to be accredited for that.
    Also, once it is level 8 it is accredited in principal, after 5 years, it is considered for full accreditation. The WIT course is not accredited n principal.


  • #110
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    Right where do start, I turn my back for 5 minutes again and you all post like mad and now for the debate.

    Accreditation. It is up to the colleges to look for and obtain accreditation with either or both current institutions. The fact that most of them havn't just show how much they really care. I firmly believe that these colleges who don't seek acrediation have done and are still doing their students a grave disservice

    Changing the RIAI from within. With 1 vote on council relating solely to Architectural Technology matters I could take a while. Do however join their member information is second to none for keeping up to date with whats going on in the industry

    Recognition of Irish courses by CIAT, I had the same problem for years and years, why the hell should I join someone who dosnt recognise my obviously better (to me) Irish BSc and Diploma in architectural technology baaa humbug but now that I have finally taken the plunge and was happily filling out my pop record (all parts) I discovered that we can ask CIAT to knowledge map our courses (which they will) and then I can get whatever exemptions from underpinning knowledge sections of the pop record My course give me, which is exactly the same as those obviously inferior english courses the only difference is they know what they are exempt in we have to find out!! For the rest we're exactly the same.

    I wish everybody here would have a look at some other professional organisations and see whats involved in joining them, RICS a log book type thing for about 2 years!! MRIAI its called a part 3 exam!!! I'm sure the engineers have something too I just havnt looked, accountants solicitors they all have proceedures to get professional membership of their respective organisations If you want something that everyone can join and nobody cares what qualifications everybody has join a political party or a golf club.( or the IBCI oops they changed their rules when we came along and sure we left the caravans outside!!!)

    I do agree that some of our level 7 degrees and diplomas should be level 8 and the fact that they aren't was yet again the academics doing a disservice to their students (us) when the framework was being set up. What can be done to change it, We need distance learning courses, more APL (aquired prior learning) recognition to get us up to level 8 and beyond

    RKQ we all want the same thing but there's a huge residue of bitterness from years of little or no representation we could do with overcoming first but keep dreaming.


  • #111
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    pseudo-tech wrote: »
    In relation to your comment in relation to “mobilising our various rep bodies to let the banks and law society” know about our predicament I would suggest that this is a waste of time. The RIAI do not want to know, the IATGN were asked over a year ago to make contact by numerous people and sent allegedly a single letter to the law society that was not responded to.
    Is this something you alledged??
    Anybody that was involved or came accross the IATGN near the start should remember the law society speaking at one of the early conferences. I think the picture were also on the website.
    It is strange though how the academics on the IATGN committee are communicating with the law society to recognise degrees in Architectural Technology while snubbing all the graduates, that graduated before the degrees were introduced. I still believe that the only show in town is the CIAT who are showing true interest in our predicament. For the record, I am a profile member currently filling in my pop record.
    Again, you refer to the IATGN in a allegating manner. Its appears, I may be wrong, that you have an axe to grind. Previously, their letter to the LS wasn't replied to. Now they are communicating in respect to graduates with degrees.

    I think you are mistaken regarding the LS. The discussions with the Law society, are in relation to the forth coming HONOURS degree. Not the recent ordinary degrees. The law society have certain requirements of elements that need to be on the course if they are to permitted certain powers.
    So no graduates hae been snubbed.
    In fact, some gradates of the diploma have been place ahead of graduates of the degree course, they are permitted to complete the honours course in half the time, and will likely start first. This is down to expierence.
    Have anyone recently heard from the IATGN about what they are doing or not doing and when they propose to put back in place the only positive thing associated with them, their forum?
    The following is in no way offical, and is just speculation by myself.
    But, due to the nature of forums, people will always take the piss. Some people were doing so on the IATGN, winding people up, people that they knew while hiding behind a username. I have a feeling, thatis the IATGN is to advance as a professional body that it won't allow anonymous registering.


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  • #112
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    No6 wrote: »
    Recognition of Irish courses by CIAT, I had the same problem for years and years, why the hell should I join someone who dosnt recognise my obviously better (to me) Irish BSc and Diploma in architectural technology baaa humbug but now that I have finally taken the plunge and was happily filling out my pop record (all parts) I discovered that we can ask CIAT to knowledge map our courses (which they will) and then I can get whatever exemptions from underpinning knowledge sections of the pop record My course give me, which is exactly the same as those obviously inferior english courses the only difference is they know what they are exempt in we have to find out!! For the rest we're exactly the same.
    Can (or did) you progress straight to MCIAT?
    That was my original intention, but I gave u whe they didn't reply to my queries regarding my options.


  • #113
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    Mellor wrote: »
    Can (or did) you progress straight to MCIAT?
    That was my original intention, but I gave u whe they didn't reply to my queries regarding my options.

    I will progress straight to MCIAT, I have 10+ years and am self employed so I have to go the profile route & straight to MCIAT, if I could just stop posting here and finish my pop record. I want to have it signed off by the end of july but am waiting for my knowledge map so it may take longer. I have found that any time I contact the institute they are very proactive and helpful. Who did you contact what is your situation let me know pm me and i'll try and help.:D


  • #114
    pseudo-tech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭pseudo-tech


    Mellor, I was informed about the letter sent to the LC by an IATGN committee member and the same person informed me that there was no response but that the Academics on the committee were discussing the honours degree with the LC independently of the committee. You have confirmed this to be true so I suppose there is no allegation. The reason I was not certain was that a single representative and not the entire committee delivered it. My apologies if misrepresented.


  • #115
    archtech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭archtech


    Mellor wrote: »
    On the other hand, CIATs approach does annoy me.
    People with degrees from irish colleges have to go the long way to Chartership. Which is bullshit imo. They base thier requirements on the national framework. But their is no direct relation between the UK and the republic framework.
    .
    The framework levels is a European thing, to assist in determining the educational level across europe and beyond. Each level on the framework should be equal across countries, with a direct relationship between countries however in Ireland, the standards in (some) courses in (some) colleges) are higher than it should be for the level of the award. "Good for education bad for recognition" as you said yourself before
    Mellor wrote: »
    .We use different naming here and we suffer. Most three years courses here are level 7 (bar a small few I believe). In the UK, the 3 year AT degrees are level 8. So, even though my degree may be just as good, I am not afforded the same respect by the CIAT. Infact, it may even be better than the lower band.
    If anyone doesn't show our courses the respect, its the Irish awarding bodies, in that we receive a lower award for a better education.

    Remember CIAT doesn't decide what courses are level 7 or level 8, that's between the relevant collage and the relevant awarding body. It should be noted not all level 8 courses in architectural technology in the UK are CIAT acrediated, in the same way as not all architectural technology courses in ROI are RIAI "approved", even thought there are quiet a few level 7 architectural technology courses in Ireland now.


  • #116
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,378 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    archtech wrote: »
    The framework levels is a European thing, to assist in determining the educational level across europe and beyond. Each level on the framework should be equal across countries, with a direct relationship between countries however in Ireland, the standards in (some) courses in (some) colleges) are higher than it should be for the level of the award. "Good for education bad for recognition" as you said yourself before
    I agree with the should part,
    Its a european idea, but the level or award is set by the national body, I also agree its them that do us a disservice.
    Remember CIAT doesn't decide what courses are level 7 or level 8, that's between the relevant collage and the relevant awarding body. It should be noted not all level 8 courses in architectural technology in the UK are CIAT acrediated, in the same way as not all architectural technology courses in ROI are RIAI "approved", even thought there are quiet a few level 7 architectural technology courses in Ireland now.
    The CIAT doesb't decide which are 7 or 8, but they can the power to admitt level 7 degree to full membership if they wish, or if they think they are equal.
    As for level 8s not accredited, I know of a few, they are ones that are less than 5 years old, the course must be 5 years old before it is considered for full accreditation.
    I don't know if any course, was refused accreditation. (not saying none were, I just don't know of any)


  • #117
    archtech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭archtech


    Mellor wrote: »
    The CIAT doesb't decide which are 7 or 8, but they can the power to admitt level 7 degree to full membership if they wish, or if they think they are equal.
    They don't actually, there's another body which sets out the criteria for minimum levels of admittance to professional institutes.You could rightly argue that CIAT or any other Professional Institute does not have to abide by that criteria, which is a fair point, however when it comes to the Professional Institute to putting its case that its members are suitable to undertake a task (eg certify stage payments for a bank) it needs to be able to demonstrate how it accesses its members.

    Its all red tape and unfortunately it filters down the system.
    Mellor wrote: »
    As for level 8s not accredited, I know of a few, they are ones that are less than 5 years old, the course must be 5 years old before it is considered for full accreditation.
    I don't know if any course, was refused accreditation. (not saying none were, I just don't know of any)

    By all accounts there is one course which is currently level 8 and is acrediated by CIAT , currently under review and will most properly loose its accreditation from what I can gather.


  • #118
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    pseudo-tech wrote: »
    Topcatcbr, I agree with you last post relating to having the skills but lacking the educational qualification. Do we really need a part-time course, for what? How many lecturers would you know that would be capable of lecturing someone with 5+ post-grad years of experience? They would run for the hills, (those that cannot do, lecture). Experience plus your 3-year diploma, should at this stage be acceptable and recognised by all the representing bodies.

    Why do we need a part time degree.
    Because as mellor has stated (and i agree) our 3 dip/degree is already at Hons Degree level 8. However we are stuck with a level 7 qualification. Why part time. Because most of the people who would be interested are already in full time employment.

    Fact our 3 year Diploma + experience is not acceptable and this situation is changing for the worse not better.
    Current students will be of Hons degree standard, We will be left behind.
    pseudo-tech wrote: »
    In relation to your comment in relation to “mobilising our various rep bodies to let the banks and law society” know about our predicament I would suggest that this is a waste of time. The RIAI do not want to know, the IATGN were asked over a year ago to make contact by numerous people and sent allegedly a single letter to the law society that was not responded to. It is strange though how the academics on the IATGN committee are communicating with the law society to recognise degrees in Architectural Technology while snubbing all the graduates, that graduated before the degrees were introduced. I still believe that the only show in town is the CIAT who are showing true interest in our predicament. For the record, I am a profile member currently filling in my pop record.

    I think this is the only way forward. It would be hard for them to convince them that our Dip/degree is better than other construction Dip/Degree. The obvious question remains. If it is better then why is it not a Hons Degree.
    pseudo-tech wrote: »
    Again, for the record, I believe that is why RKQ and his apostles met in Portlaoise to try to break down this wall that has been placed before us without a reaction from the people who we were led to believe were working at protecting our interests.
    Have anyone recently heard from the IATGN about what they are doing or not doing and when they propose to put back in place the only positive thing associated with them, their forum?

    I think the fact that they exist at all is a positive. They couldnt keep their forum open as there was no moderation and posters were activly attacking each other and the IATGN.

    Just my opinion.


  • #119
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    Mellor wrote: »
    So you suggest that the only "extra" for unaccredited courses should be just an exam.
    Is that for all people from unaccredited courses, or just AT courses.

    Exam + 2 years experience. Yes.

    If an individual is good enough they will pass exam. If not they wont.

    I realise that Exams do not tell the whole story. Maybee a Pop record could also be introduced. But remember we are talking about tech membership not full membership.

    It is counter productive to restrict membership any further than this.

    You and your RIAI colligues may hold the tech membership above the membership of other orgs but how is this reflectet in the wider sector. What aditional recognition do you get for this. Are your certs accepted over others.

    Im not trying to attack or offend and i appoligise if i am.
    I am just trying to put a point of view accross.


  • #120
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    Personally I think here should be a level playing field, all courses should have a high standard and be accredited by the various professional bodies. There should perhaps be an associate level membership with a part 3 type exam, pop record log book or some system to establish professional standards with even perhaps different levels of professional membership, imagine if there was a body called ART (Architectural & Related Technologies) there could be associates AART, Members MART and maybe even Fellows FART... RKQ i dream too but perhaps I need my medication now!!!:D


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  • #121
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    I have a dream.... and so the world changed "Free, free at last!"

    Still dreams can change the world and no apologies for trying to change the status quo ( not the band smart a*s*).

    Maybe No.6, you could continue to enlighten us about CIAT requirements. Course maps? POP records etc Such sharing of experiences will help everyone.

    Thats very interesting Pseudo-tech, your comment was quoted above but your point was lost!

    I asked questions about contact with the Law Society on another forum and got no answers. I am intrigued to hear contact was made and NO response was received!

    Did or will anyone chase this issue up? Its worth a try... :confused:

    Contact with the Law Society regarding Certification is extremely important. Law Society recommendations / agreement would be honoured by the largest bank in the country... Another great chance for the IATGN to show its metal.... don't squander this one... we still have faith;)


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