Architectural Technology - Representation

Mellor

Supertech wrote: »

There are several other Institutes of Technology offering unaccredited degree level programs in Archiotectural Technology Mellor which is all I'm talking about. I know there are other educational bodies providing Level 6 and below, but it's the Ordinary and Honours Level Degree courses I'm talking about not these others.

I knew what you were talking about.
You said the ITs were uncredited, thats not true, the only accredited courses are both ITs.

I think all the Institutes of Technology offering Level 7 or above should be looking for accreditation from the professional bodies, and I think it's up to those who would be looking to enrol on any add on honours degree to be lobbying for these to be accrediited aswell.

As was said the other night, they were 4 courses accredited at one stage. Its completely at their control.

topcatcbr

If an arch Tech has an hons degree Level 8 and wants to become a sei assessor for non domestic they could do so by joining the CIOB as this is on the list.

No6

Topcatcbr where is this list?, I suppose CIAT dosn't need to be on it as MCIAT are able to join CIOB as Incorporated members however at the rate thing are going around here we'll all be in about 10 different institutes / bodies with more letters after our names the a dsylexic dwarf with a really long name has and we still wouldn't be able to do all the things we obviously feel we should around here. ( No offence to Dwarfs intended I'm a bit on the small side myself!) There's so many glass ceilings around here we should get into double glazing.:D

Mellor

topcatcbr wrote: »

He could if he was a member of CIOB

topcatcbr wrote: »

If an arch Tech has an hons degree Level 8 and wants to become a sei assessor for non domestic they could do so by joining the CIOB as this is on the list.

Not sure why you posted that twice.
You're probably right, but I don't see CIOB on the list. Are you refering to admission via being a grade 4 UK assessor. That may be an option, but that said, I think I still proves a point in principal.
Tech members of RIAI can't be BER assessors, unless they join CIOB, more poxy red tape. The exclusion of tech members of RIAI is pointless, it just makes it awkward toget in, but rules out nobody.

topcatcbr

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure why you posted that twice.
You're probably right, but I don't see CIOB on the list. Are you refering to admission via being a grade 4 UK assessor. That may be an option, but that said, I think I still proves a point in principal.
Tech members of RIAI can't be BER assessors, unless they join CIOB, more poxy red tape. The exclusion of tech members of RIAI is pointless, it just makes it awkward toget in, but rules out nobody.

To clarify what i was trying to say

I recieved an email from one of the course providers and the CIOB was listed i have deleted it now so i cant post it.

sinnerboy

CIOB is on "the list " . I cut and pasted this on Thursday last ( 19 June ) from an e mail i received that day

To become registered as a BER Assessor for Non Domestic Buildings Energy

The criteria will include:

· Membership of a professional institution (e.g. Engineers Ireland, RIAI, SCS, CIOB etc)

· Level 8 (honours degree) qualification in a construction or engineering related discipline

· Pass a National SEI examination for Non Domestic Buildings

SEI has confirmed that the exam will follow the BRE SBEM examination format which fits into the UK Competent Persons Scheme framework with Irish variants

Pre Requisites: Participants will be required to have computer skills to at least an ECDL level and be familiar with operating engineering related software applications. To register with SEI as an assessor for non domestic buildings, students must have at least a level 8 degree in an engineering related discipline and be a member of a professional association.

I think this will blow over . SEI have flipped from being very lax about who trained for BER so far , to too onerous in who they are restricting for BER non Dom .

Prediction - take up will be slow . At's will be accepted .

Would help speed up ( the inevitable i think ) if we lobbied them

No6

OK so I found a list on SEI's website, firstly CIOB is not on it CISE (of some engineering body like that is) RIAI (excluding techs) and a few more engineers or Level 4 qualified under the english system will be allowed register as interm BER assessors for Non Domestic buildings, provided you pass the exam, training courses are optional, please note the interm bit, dare I suggest that we all get on to all of our various representative bodies tomorrow morning first thing and get them all to lobby SEI on our behalf. As the interm registration only lasts (supposedly) untill the end of the year I personally don't see a huge need to get registered in the short term but I would like to be able to do it when the final scheme comes into being.

archtech

topcatcbr wrote: »

I wonder would the CIOB a sister org to CIAT be open to shareing an office.

It would be a misrepresentation to describe CIOB as a sister organisation of CIAT, however there is a partnering agreement, allowing both work closely together,on CPDs etc and allowing some exceptions in membership of the other organisation with reduced membership fees for members of both organisations. Unfortunately, from what I can gather the relationship in Ireland between the two institutes, hasn't been the best as I understand it in the past, for one reason or another. So the willingness to share an office may be an issue, however I don't think it should be ruled out for what happened in the past.

Mellor

That may have been a misprint in the email.
The list I have was the printed one on the website.
It includes, RIAI, EI, CIBSE and RICS
And there are minimum membership levels needed,

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1637&docID=-1

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

CIOB is on "the list " . I cut and pasted this on Thursday last ( 19 June ) from an e mail i received that day

To become registered as a BER Assessor for Non Domestic Buildings Energy

The criteria will include:

· Membership of a professional institution (e.g. Engineers Ireland, RIAI, SCS, CIOB etc)

· Level 8 (honours degree) qualification in a construction or engineering related discipline

· Pass a National SEI examination for Non Domestic Buildings

SEI has confirmed that the exam will follow the BRE SBEM examination format which fits into the UK Competent Persons Scheme framework with Irish variants

Pre Requisites: Participants will be required to have computer skills to at least an ECDL level and be familiar with operating engineering related software applications. To register with SEI as an assessor for non domestic buildings, students must have at least a level 8 degree in an engineering related discipline and be a member of a professional association.

I think this will blow over . SEI have flipped from being very lax about who trained for BER so far , to too onerous in who they are restricting for BER non Dom .

Prediction - take up will be slow . At's will be accepted .

Would help speed up ( the inevitable i think ) if we lobbied them

This is the same email as i got

I have seen the SEI website list and the CIOB is not on it but i would be surprised if they were excluded. a mistake on the SEI web list maybe.

topcatcbr

A Building Energy Rating (BER) and Advisory Report will be required for new Non Domestic buildings for which planning permission is applied on or after 1 July 2008. BERs will be carried out only by assessors registered by Sustainable Energy Ireland (SEI). This is an interim registration for Non Domestic BER Assessors.

The Registered Non Domestic Energy Assessor Scheme will supersede this interim registration, which is expected to be in place before the end of 2008


Note this is an interim registration. therefore not finalised.

Watch this space

My prediction would be full membership of CIAT will be acceptable.

RKQ

I agree fully with Archtech. I wouldn't call CIAT and CIOB "sister" organisations, as this suggests some close links or the started from the same seed.

The are totally separate organisations, with separate memberships and separate needs and aspirations.

They have a "mutual" respect for each other and therefore allow certain discounts to those who may wish to join both organisations.

I would never expect two separate organisations to share an office!
Why would they?

There is great prestige associated with an "overseas" office. Why share the prestige or the organisations respect for its own members?
The CIOB set up an office - well done to them, its great for their members.

I'm sure the CIAT will follow suit in time. They already have an office in Hong Kong.

Mellor

They will need more members though. Last year they had about 200 irish members, probably the same now, the riai has about 350 tech members,
We need to get close to the 1k mark to start making a push for our wants and needs

No6

IF everybody who registered with the IATGN (1600) joined CIAT as per the IATGN's report reccomendations then I'm sure CIAT would be able to open an office in Ireland. However I think the vast majority of the 1600 will stop short of putting their hands in their pockets for membership fees, for those in employment see if the boss will pay (some do, its no harm to ask!!) and for those who are self employed if you're not a member of some body whats wrong with you!!:D

RKQ

Considering the cost of the BER course's, the cost of Health and Safety Courses and the cost of Air-tightness courses, EPA soil suitability course etc etc.

Are we the mark / target for money making courses?

Why are they so expensive?
Why do they have long waiting lists?

Is our lack of a professional organisation allowing us to be targeted / abused. Compare the cost of Air-tightness course in Ireland with Switzerland - over €1500 in the difference!

How can that be justified?

Mellor

If CIOB and/or CIAT are acceptable, its still not a solution to the problem, just the symptoms. The exclusion of tech members of RIAI needs to be addressed, as does the level 8 status.


Also if CIOB and/or CIAT are acceptable, how many of thier irish members have level 8 degrees. The level 8 graduates are only in practise in the last few years, may 4 or 5 grad classes. And not many of these will have had the time to become involved with a professional org.
Are any of our posters permitted under current guidelines?

No6

Mellor wrote: »

If CIOB and/or CIAT are acceptable, its still not a solution to the problem, just the symptoms. The exclusion of tech members of RIAI needs to be addressed, as does the level 8 status.

Also if CIOB and/or CIAT are acceptable, how many of thier irish members have level 8 degrees. The level 8 graduates are only in practise in the last few years, may 4 or 5 grad classes. And not many of these will have had the time to become involved with a professional org.
Are any of our posters permitted under current guidelines?

I agree Mellor, I have asked CIAT to consider looking at this for MCIAT members (which I'm not yet!! but working on it!!) I'm not worried about the interm registration its only for a few months I want to be able to be included in the final registration.

As per the cost of courses RKQ, I don't know if the course in switzerland will train you to do airtighness testing, its more about airtightness detailing and what to look for as far as I can see. Chevron have a training course for testing at about 1700 euros, but is it accredited, I don't know, I know Reg farrell engineering have a free course (you just have to buy the Fan!! @ 5000).

Some course providers are agressively marketing the Existing Domestic Building assesment courses (around 600) and will probaly do the same with the Non Domestic Course too (around 1000) I suspect that take up of a lot of these course will be a lot slower than the new build courses as very few people are making money on BER's yet so the price may fall.

The RIAI H&S course is 2000 (400 for the designing for safety & 1600 for the PSDP course) ooowwww

Some good value courses are around however, CIAT ran a 2 day H&S course Management of The Construction Design Process for 500 and there is a Sustainable Architecture Now Conference in Dublin in July for only 50!!

archtech

Mellor wrote: »

They will need more members though. Last year they had about 200 irish members, probably the same now, the riai has about 350 tech members,
We need to get close to the 1k mark to start making a push for our wants and needs

CIAT has approximately 275 members at present in the ROI, which would be up 25-30 on last year.

sinnerboy

I contacted SEI by e mailing here

info@ber.sei.ie

I politely asked if SEI were intentionally excluding AT's by requiring level 8 qualification

No response yet - but I only sent the e mail on Friday .

Perhaps other's can do likewise ?

topcatcbr

archtech wrote: »

CIAT has approximately 275 members at present in the ROI, which would be up 25-30 on last year.

They will have 1 more soon

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

They will have 1 more soon

are you joining as a profile candidate? do you have to do a pop record?

No6

topcatcbr wrote: »

My prediction would be full membership of CIAT will be acceptable.

I just checked they're on the case!!

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

are you joining as a profile candidate? do you have to do a pop record?

If you've done a recognised course and are in emploment you can join as an ACIAT (no pop record) but to progress to TCIAT or MCIAT you haveto do a POP record. Even unrecognised courses (all the Irish ones) will get exemptions to some of the underpinning Knowledge sections of the POP record, just ask London to do the Knowledge map and get the exemptions. The performance parts have to be filled in by everyone and are based on actual practice using for the most part real projects which you've worked on.

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

If you've done a recognised course and are in emploment you can join as an ACIAT (no pop record) but to progress to TCIAT or MCIAT you haveto do a POP record. Even unrecognised courses (all the Irish ones) will get exemptions to some of the underpinning Knowledge sections of the POP record, just ask London to do the Knowledge map and get the exemptions. The performance parts have to be filled in by everyone and are based on actual practice using for the most part real projects which you've worked on.

As above

Mellor

I wasn't counting student members, as they still include students that joined as students years ago in their numbers,
so they are not students any more, hence not student members,
its not even a real membership so to speak

No6

Mellor wrote: »

I wasn't counting student members, as they still include students that joined as students years ago in their numbers,
so they are not students any more, hence not student members,
its not even a real membership so to speak

Which is not real Mellor, CIAT members or IATGN? or even RIAI, I've often wondered how long it take before you get struck off, I know one MRIAI who left the country years ago and is still listed as an MRIAI and I doubt he's still paying subs, he definately didnt pay anyone else, staff incuded!! I know IATGN spend a lot of time on their lists removing duplicates but they're still free, watch the numbers plummet when people have to pay!!

Mellor

I was refering to students members of CIAT, but I suppose it stands for student members for all. I wouldn't count them towards active members, I doubt they are kept up to date. I agrre that IATGN will see a huge drop when a fee comes in,

sydthebeat

Mellor wrote: »

I was refering to students members of CIAT, but I suppose it stands for student members for all. I wouldn't count them towards active members, I doubt they are kept up to date. I agrre that IATGN will see a huge drop when a fee comes in,

i think the IATGN will see a huge drop in membership if, and when, their own 'standards list' is published.
How many current members are graduates of 'construction studies' or cad courses??? Will these be slid aside if ATI is a technicians only body?

Mellor

I imagine most are from tchnician courses, i'm basing this on where the IATGN was set up.

No6

The more I see of it the more I begin to think that the pop record system is quite fair, It takes into account your academic qualifications but looks primarily for practical experience. It still takes a number of years after qualification for an honours degree holder to get up to speed they'll still start at the bottom, you just can't beat window schedules can you!!!:D