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Sick of hearing about green issues?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Mena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Mena


    Well will any of you people take a walk outside now quickly? This weather is dire. I for one welcome global warming, especially in Ireland!


  • #33
    Glowing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Glowing


    Mena wrote: »
    Well will any of you people take a walk outside now quickly? This weather is dire. I for one welcome global warming, especially in Ireland!

    Ah for god's sake, what age are you, 2? Do you know anything about climate CHANGE at all? :rolleyes:

    It's very likely that Ireland will get damper, cooler, during the winter. We'll have more vapour in the atmosphere, so more cloud cover. But we will get more extremes - higher temperatures in the summer, more rain, more storms etc. Hot, dry countries will likely get even hotter and drier. So what does that result in? More deaths, more drought, more food shortages.

    You can put away your deck chair and rubber ring.


  • #34
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Mena wrote: »
    Well will any of you people take a walk outside now quickly? This weather is dire. I for one welcome global warming, especially in Ireland!

    You'd better get used to it: heavier rainfall is a result of global warming. Plus tell that to the islanders in the Pacific who will lose their homes due to rising sea levels.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2219001.stm

    The worst thing about it is they aren't the ones driving around their lovely new sprawling housing estates in their shiny SUVs, pumping out C02 like there's no tomorrow - that was us Westerners. As usual its the worst offendors that don't suffer.

    Actually, I read an interesting article about Ecological Debt. The author stated that if you calculate the cost of the immense damage that global warming is being done to 'developing' countries by 'developed' countries, and factor in current debts in these countries, we end up owing them a feckload of money.


  • #35
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    cornbb wrote: »
    Not to mention the fact that fossil fuels are not inexhaustible. They're gonna run out sooner or later, people may as well start beginning to adapt to the alternatives now.

    Just to be picky, I think fossil fuels aren't going to run out for a very long time. I believe the issue is peak export availability rather than the peak oil people keep talking about. I remember in '06 trying to convince people that export availability was the number to worry about and getting blank looks. The graph of available oil peaked in July 06 or thereabouts.

    It's simple: production growth is flat, population growth is +75m/year, living expectations are rising very quickly in China/India/everywhere. Don't have to be a genius to figure out that as demand goes up and oil producing countries have to keep more of their own oil, cost skyrockets. I think the gap between production and demand for those who depend on imports is about 2%. In market terms that's a chasm.

    Net oil exporters are absolutely awash with cash, which makes the situation worse - they invest in their own infrastructure and economies and subsidise fuel costs (China is less that 50 c/litre, middle east is less than 25c/litre), which causes more consumption of energy which drives prices up which gives more money to oil exporters which.... You see the problem.

    Anyway, my point is that in 2006 I felt that we might be in serious trouble by 2015. Now I'm sure of it. I don't believe oil prices will ever fall significantly which will put our economy (and the US/Britain/Europe) into the crapper.

    It makes financial sense to think about "green" issues and technology simply as a matter of self-preservation. It's about figuring out how to live the next 50 years without starving to death. Wish I'd bought land in Wicklow 15 years ago...
    I personally think global warming is a huge sideshow, distracting the world from more important issues like pollution, destruction of habitat, etc. I want to strangle "Green" politicians who twitter on about biofuels and wave power like it's a magic wand to solve the worlds problems. Ehhhh, Wrong.

    Still, Ireland is much better off than the US could be. Imagine millions of people living 50 miles out in some bland exurban wilderness with no way of getting anywhere except in their SUV. Man, that's going to suck in 10 years time...

    (Jaysus, I do go on a bit don't I!)


  • #36
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    taconnol wrote: »
    The author stated that if you calculate the cost of the immense damage that global warming is being done to 'developing' countries by 'developed' countries, and factor in current debts in these countries, we end up owing them a feckload of money.

    Good point. You can add that to the trillion dollars the US owes Africa for 200 years of unpair labour.


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  • #37
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    You're right about biofuels - total disaster. And yeah global warming isn't the most important enviromental issue.

    Although I would say that as Ireland has the highest car usership stats in the world (ie we drive our cars more ethan anyone else in the world - even the Americans), I do think we're going to be in for a shock over the next few years. Interesting film on the topic: "End of Suburbia"


  • #38
    Glowing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Glowing


    taconnol wrote: »
    You're right about biofuels - total disaster. And yeah global warming isn't the most important enviromental issue.

    Yep, I agree. There are going to be enough food shortages without us growing crops solely for transport.

    No, we're not going to run out of fossil fuels overnight - peak gas is about 50 years behind peak oil, but there are enough reserves of coal to last us 250 years at the current usage rate (which will increase when oil reserves are limited). Coal is a filthy fuel however, with huge CO2, and sulphur outputs when burnt. A good carbon capture and sequestration process might enable us to utilise this coal without worsening our carbon dioxide concentrations.

    Anyway, if we all keep driving the way we do, and consuming the way we do, we're fecked anyway despite what measures the government takes ....


  • #39
    Frester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Frester


    I only heard this from my grandmother yeaterday but I was shocked by it, apparently America has loads of oil still and they just want to keep it! They are using other countries oil so they won't run out and then when it IS scarce they will sell it for a FORTUNE! :o


  • #40
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    taconnol wrote: »
    I do think we're going to be in for a shock over the next few years. Interesting film on the topic: "End of Suburbia"

    That looks interesting, must google it. TG4's Fiorsceal has had some pretty inciteful (and depressing) films on over the last couple of years too. Ireland was really late to the 20th century urban sprawl scenario so whatever happens, I think we'll be OK. People can adapt to pretty much anything given a bit of time and a chance. I think we can be pretty cheerful about the future, especially in contrast to the 1980s when many were convinced nuclear armageddon was just a matter of time.


  • #41
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    carveone wrote: »
    I personally think global warming is a huge sideshow, distracting the world from more important issues like pollution, destruction of habitat, etc. I want to strangle "Green" politicians who twitter on about biofuels and wave power like it's a magic wand to solve the worlds problems. Ehhhh, Wrong.

    Biofuels and wave power won't solve all the worlds problems, but they are hardly unimportant or irrelivant.


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  • #42
    irishfeller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 130 ✭✭irishfeller


    I think its fairly thick to say yis are sick of hearing about green issues. The whole pollution and global warming thing isn't going to have massive implications for our generation but it will have big implication for future generations. So think of yer grandchildren and greatgrandchildren.


  • #43
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    carveone wrote: »
    That looks interesting, must google it. TG4's Fiorsceal has had some pretty inciteful (and depressing) films on over the last couple of years too. Ireland was really late to the 20th century urban sprawl scenario so whatever happens, I think we'll be OK. People can adapt to pretty much anything given a bit of time and a chance. I think we can be pretty cheerful about the future, especially in contrast to the 1980s when many were convinced nuclear armageddon was just a matter of time.

    Yeah I mean I want to bury my head in the sand sometimes because it seems so daunting and depressing. It would be much easier to ignore it all and carry on my merry, consumeristic way. - that's true about nuclear armageddon, although having studied Soviet History, it was pretty close to being a reality. Another scare - acid rain.

    thelordofcheese - yeah biofuels are important but basically we don't know what we're doing. The EU have set these crazy targets (they love targets) and we may be doing more harm than good. Last year the US diverted 1/5th of its total corn to biofuels*, leading to higher corn prices. We need to pull back, sit down, do the science & figure out the best way forward. We should be concentrating on waste biofuel (ie animal waste) and denser biofuels (wood), ie 2nd & 3rd generation biofuels before we jump on the bandwagon. At present the EU doesn't have enough land to produce all its biofuel so does that mean we bring it in from Indonesia, where they're chopping down the rainforest & destroying the last natural habitat of orangutans so we can pat ourselves on the back & keep driving our SUVs?

    I've said it a million times - behaviour modification (ie cycle, don't drive) is the way to go but it isn't as sexy as biofuels or hydrogen cars or nuclear or wave power. No one's going to get as excited about insulation as they are about geothermal (ooh..geothermal...) We want the scientists to do it all for us.


    * (not necessarily a bad thing, if you read Michael Pollans 'The Omnivore's Dilemma' - book on how EVERYTHING in the US is made out of corn. It's fed to cows, who arent' designed to eat it, cue: animal disease & overuse of antibiotics - scary)


  • #44
    Glowing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Glowing


    taconnol wrote: »
    I've said it a million times - behaviour modification (ie cycle, don't drive) is the way to go but it isn't as sexy as biofuels or hydrogen cars or nuclear or wave power. No one's going to get as excited about insulation as they are about geothermal (ooh..geothermal...) We want the scientists to do it all for us.

    Yep, it's the boring things that make the biggest difference ...... !


  • #45
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Biofuels and wave power won't solve all the worlds problems, but they are hardly unimportant or irrelivant.

    I didn't mean that really :) The thing about wave, wind and solar power is that they are intermittent. I will readily admit that I'm not sure how much power is going into the grid from the wind turbines. Wikipedia says 800MW. That's pretty damn impressive really, especially considering that energy is created without screwing over the rest of the world. However system peak winter demand is 5 to 6000MW.

    I'm just saying that something is going to give. And it'll be our lifestyle. Hell, maybe it's all for the best that oil prices are the way they are. Don't need those carbon taxes now!


  • #46
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    fits wrote: »
    Like who?

    Good luck in your search:D

    Read "The Skeptical Environmentalist" or "Cool It" by Bjorn Lomborg. He challenges the current view of global warming and is really well researched (about a third of the total pages of "Cool It" is his bibliography at the end).

    From memory I think he pointed out that there has been a net gain of snow in the arctic, of the 20 subpopulations of polar bears only 1 or 2 are experiencing a decline in numbers and these are declining for reasons other than global warming, Kyoto will achieve practically nothing for enormous costs which would be better spent elsewhere, and freak weather events such as hurricanes only cause more damage today than they did 100 years ago because more houses are built along coastal areas.


  • #47
    carveone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    taconnol wrote: »
    We should be concentrating on waste biofuel (ie animal waste) and denser biofuels (wood), ie 2nd & 3rd generation biofuels before we jump on the bandwagon.

    Sometimes this country is so great. It takes us so long to do anything that by the time we get around to it, the rest of the world has discovered that it was a bad idea in the first place. So we didn't contribute to the problem. Works for me!
    I've said it a million times - behaviour modification (ie cycle, don't drive) is the way to go

    We want the quick fix now at zero price. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Still, just think of the great cycle tracks we'll have in 20 years time. The M50 cycle track. Yummy. And it'll be faster too :)


  • #48
    Mena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Mena


    Glowing wrote: »
    Ah for god's sake, what age are you, 2? Do you know anything about climate CHANGE at all? :rolleyes:

    It's very likely that Ireland will get damper, cooler, during the winter. We'll have more vapour in the atmosphere, so more cloud cover. But we will get more extremes - higher temperatures in the summer, more rain, more storms etc. Hot, dry countries will likely get even hotter and drier. So what does that result in? More deaths, more drought, more food shortages.

    You can put away your deck chair and rubber ring.
    taconnol wrote: »
    You'd better get used to it: heavier rainfall is a result of global warming. Plus tell that to the islanders in the Pacific who will lose their homes due to rising sea levels.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2219001.stm

    The worst thing about it is they aren't the ones driving around their lovely new sprawling housing estates in their shiny SUVs, pumping out C02 like there's no tomorrow - that was us Westerners. As usual its the worst offendors that don't suffer.

    Actually, I read an interesting article about Ecological Debt. The author stated that if you calculate the cost of the immense damage that global warming is being done to 'developing' countries by 'developed' countries, and factor in current debts in these countries, we end up owing them a feckload of money.

    Sorry, that certainly cannot be right, if it was, they'd have called it global wetting.


  • #49
    Glowing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Glowing


    Mena wrote: »
    Sorry, that certainly cannot be right, if it was, they'd have called it global wetting.

    :rolleyes:

    Read a book will you?


  • #50
    Frester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18 ✭Frester


    Mena wrote: »
    Sorry, that certainly cannot be right, if it was, they'd have called it global wetting.


    I think the weather is affected differently depending on what part of the world you're in? Or else its something to do with something melting?


  • #51
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Mena wrote: »
    Sorry, that certainly cannot be right, if it was, they'd have called it global wetting.

    Increased temperature means more evaporation of water into the atmosphere and its gotta come dowm some time. Get ready for cloudy skies-alot of cloudy skies. Trust me-I just did a masters on this subject.

    Edit: This is the case for Ireland anyway, although there will be some regional variations.


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  • #52
    Glowing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Glowing


    The planet's weather system is an extremely complex thing - any changes in temperature will affect things like ocean currents, winds, water vapour, cloud cover, which will in turn affect our weather patterns at different rates and in different ways around the world.

    Global warming on a planetary scale (i.e the increase of the mean temperatures by 1 degree or whatever) will have huge implications, but won't necessarily mean that every place on the planet will get warmer - it varies, but overall, we're heating up.


  • #53
    Mena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Mena


    Oh please, this is After Hours, what's with people taking this so seriously here? There's a green issues forum if you want serious discussion.

    :pac:


  • #54
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    No need to be so touchy Mena, just because someone pulled you up on a nonsensical post.

    Now this would be interesting:

    "James Hansen, one of the world's leading climate scientists, will today call for the chief executives of large fossil fuel companies to be put on trial for high crimes against humanity and nature, accusing them of actively spreading doubt about global warming in the same way that tobacco companies blurred the links between smoking and cancer."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/23/fossilfuels.climatechange


  • #55
    Glowing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Glowing


    Mena wrote: »
    Oh please, this is After Hours, what's with people taking this so seriously here? There's a green issues forum if you want serious discussion.

    :pac:

    Off you go then, you might actually learn something ;)


  • #56
    BurnsCarpenter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 560 ✭✭✭BurnsCarpenter


    taconnol wrote: »
    Trust me-I just did a masters on this subject.


    Ah, so you're one of those academics with so much to gain from the global warming myth.
    For shame.


  • #57
    Mena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Mena


    Glowing wrote: »
    Off you go then, you might actually learn something ;)

    No thanks. You can keep your tree hugging hippes. I'm off to get my third SUV now.


  • #58
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    BurnsCarpenter wrote: »
    Ah, so you're one of those academics with so much to gain from the global warming myth.
    For shame.

    Yeah, I took a year out of work & spent €5000 on a masters in an area that doesn't have any real job prospects in Ireland because of the money. Those guys in the IFSC don't know what they're missing :rolleyes:

    Edit: Mena, the tree-hugging hippy insult says more about you than anyone else. It's old. Yawwwn..If you're going to bury your head in the sand, please do it in style and not with regurgitated clichés.


  • #59
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    taconnol wrote: »
    thelordofcheese - yeah biofuels are important but basically we don't know what we're doing. The EU have set these crazy targets (they love targets) and we may be doing more harm than good. Last year the US diverted 1/5th of its total corn to biofuels*, leading to higher corn prices. We need to pull back, sit down, do the science & figure out the best way forward. We should be concentrating on waste biofuel (ie animal waste) and denser biofuels (wood), ie 2nd & 3rd generation biofuels

    Agree. Thirty five years ago a group of us engineers got together and built a plant that produced biofuels from wastes, including domestic ones. The plant produced a high quality fuel that, to our surprise, people bought by the truck load for their sitting room fires and industry fought for. Then the EU got into the act, and decided that whatever we did in separating and processing the materials, the end result was still waste and anyone burning it was an incinerator. We built seven plants, all in the UK, but after the EU directive we could only sell the fuel to cement works and power stations, and we couldn't produce enough of it to get near to satisfying them. And they would only pay peanuts for it.

    Nowadays if we dare to say that we build biofuels plants, some damned fools immediately say that we are robbing the starving millions of food. We use WASTES for God's sake!

    OK, rant. I am sick to the back teeth of ignorant politicians who won't listen and a green movement who want us all back in caves. Very shortly I intend to retire and spend my time hunting green activists for trophies.:mad:


  • #60
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I'm guessing you're German or Scandinavian?


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  • #61
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    I remember seeing a documentary called "the 11th hour" now, i tend to take these things with a pich of salt, but one of the points they made is that, in general most of the technologies exist to make the switch to 'greener' fuels, more enviromental methods of producing everything we enjoy currently (apparenlty for every truck load of goods that we make, 31 trucks of waste are produced on average)

    What's lacking according to the people who were interviewed is the political will to implement it, which is reflected with the stories above about the EU crippling biofuel plants and so on. It's not like widescale changes to an entire nations way of working are unhead of (the switching of america from normal peace time operations to a full war footing after pearl harbour) it'd just take the kind of will, backbone and vision that isn't usually seen in politics these days.


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