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why so afraid to go it alone

  • 18-06-2008 12:51PM
    #1
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭


    why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
    we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
    i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.


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Comments

  • #2
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    whitser wrote: »
    why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
    we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
    i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.

    We're still better in than out. The temper tantrum being thrown by the "European Elite" shouldn't blind us to that. Otherwise we'd be totally at the mercy of mad oul'wans who vote FF, and don't want their sons conscripted.


  • #3
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Dev, is that you? seriously though Ireland's resources aren't that bountiless. We need to belong to a trading bloc of some sort.


  • #4
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    whitser wrote: »
    why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
    we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
    i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.

    Well there are two options:
    1. Leave the EU and remain within the EEA
    2. Leave the EU and stay outside the EEA

    Which have the following consequences:
    1. We gain some autonomy, but in practise will end up adopting all of the EU laws anyway à la Iceland/Norway. The only difference would be that we'd get no say in how those laws are passed.
    2. We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave. The amount of employment they generate far exceeds what our fishing/agriculture industries could do in any reasonable timeframe. How many of that young, educated workforce fancy a spell on a trawler?

    Option 1 gives us very little benefit and arguably we lose out. Option 2 would be lunacy and would be disastrous.


  • #5
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    we've plenty of gas

    No we haven't. Kinsale is almost exhausted and the Mayo field is pretty modest. We have no oil until its found.

    Mike.


  • #6
    Diatom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭Diatom


    How long until the rest of the world would slap massive taxes on our exports to penalize us for our corporate tax rate without the common EU market protecting us? Ireland would be over...

    BTW our fisheries are 85% depleted, the gas deposits are tiny, there is no economically viable oil deposits, and our farm products are some of the most expensive in the world (the 1.7 billion in Irish farm subsidies only make them seem affordable).

    Ireland lives off providing high quality, affordable services to the rest of the world... there is no going it alone.


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  • #7
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    We should invest in nuclear energy. Clean and renewable.

    And not as bad as Coir would like us to think.

    Now, how many will pull the Chernybel card? Because I suppose a fundamentally faulty Soviet power station manned by coal workers doing a ludicrous test is what we would install here if we did invest in Nuclear :rolleyes:


  • #8
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    turgon wrote: »
    We should invest in nuclear energy. Clean and renewable.

    And not as bad as Coir would like us to think.

    Now, how many will pull the Chernybel card? Because I suppose a fundamentally faulty Soviet power station manned by coal workers doing a ludicrous test is what we would install here if we did invest in Nuclear :rolleyes:

    I think the idea merits at least our detailed consideration. Unfortunately you cannot even mention the word nuclear in this country without creating mass hysteria.


  • #9
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    As IRLConor points out, the bulk of our workforce are in secondary and tertiary industries, doing jobs provided by US and EU multinationals. Without the free trade access to the EU and easy access through its borders, many of these companies would have little incentive to use us as their European hub and would up sticks and leave.

    Agriculture, fishing and other primary industries cannot supply sufficient employment to maintain ourselves at our current quality of life. Most of our population knows nothing about farming or fishing, and without the protection/regulation of the EU, we'd probably find ourselves farming the land to nothing and foreign vessels fishing our waters empty.

    I tend to use Intel when making statement about the economy. It was the arrival of Intel in the early 90's which heralded the start of our boom and convinced other companies to make a go here. If Intel pulled out, you'd see an identical pattern across the technology and information industries, and a mass exodus of the population who are employed in those sectors. Unemployment and emigration would skyrocket, tax income would plummet and the entire country would very quickly have to tighten their belts.

    It's a distinct possibility that this would happen if we pulled out of the EU, but by no means a certainty. It would require us to negotiate trade agreements/treaties with the EU or EU nations anyway, and we could very quickly suffer from the differences in VAT rates and import duties.


  • #10
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    whitser wrote: »
    we have an educated young work force
    where will these people work when its unprofitable for majority of businesses to remain in this country? remember the high emigration rate/ brain drain up to the 90s??


    whitser wrote: »
    rich fishing grounds
    whats left of them?! see Scofflaw's thread on fishing industry please, you rather we export cod than microchips?

    whitser wrote: »
    best farming
    heavily subsidised by the EU

    whitser wrote: »
    we've plenty of gas
    then why do we import most of the gas used from far away places like russia?
    whitser wrote: »
    im sure theres oil out there too.
    :rolleyes:
    whitser wrote: »
    we've wind power
    india has more windfarms than ireland

    whitser wrote: »
    theres life outside the eu.
    of course there is, we all remember the GOOD OLE DAYSH before Ireland joined the EU


    so you propose a radical move from the services sector to the primary activities? how the hell will a small country remain competitive on the world stage? arghghghghhghg

    turgon wrote: »
    We should invest in nuclear energy. Clean and renewable.
    i agree with you turgon but thats a separate issue


  • #11
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    IRLConor wrote: »
    Well there are two options:
    1. Leave the EU and remain within the EEA
    2. Leave the EU and stay outside the EEA

    I don't think it's limited to those two options. A third option would be that we leave the EU but we stay in the common market on terms which are beneficial both to us and to the rest of the EU. Unlike Norway or Iceland we could continue to contribute financially to the EU and unlike them also we could continue to allow open access to our fisheries and other other national resources. In return though the EU would have to allow us to govern ourselves.

    People forget that other countries benefit from having access to our markets as well. 9% of our imports come from Germany, 36% from Britain and 4% from the Netherlands. It's in their interest as well as ours that we stay in the common market.


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  • #12
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I don't think it's limited to those two options. A third option would be that we leave the EU but we stay in the common market on terms which are beneficial both to us and to the rest of the EU. Unlike Norway or Iceland we could continue to contribute financially to the EU and unlike them also we could continue to allow open access to our fisheries and other other national resources. In return though the EU would have to allow us to govern ourselves.

    People forget that other countries benefit from having access to our markets as well. 9% of our imports come from Germany, 36% from Britain and 4% from the Netherlands. It's in their interest as well as ours that we stay in the common market.

    you seriously over estimate the size of the irish market :(


  • #13
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I don't think it's limited to those two options. A third option would be that we leave the EU but we stay in the common market on terms which are beneficial both to us and to the rest of the EU. Unlike Norway or Iceland we could continue to contribute financially to the EU and unlike them also we could continue to allow open access to our fisheries and other other national resources. In return though the EU would have to allow us to govern ourselves.

    People forget that other countries benefit from having access to our markets as well. 9% of our imports come from Germany, 36% from Britain and 4% from the Netherlands. It's in their interest as well as ours that we stay in the common market.

    Em, the EEA is the European Economic Area aka the common market. Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market. In return they don't have to turn up for meetings in Brussels were the decisions are made, yet they still have to abide by alot of those decisions.


  • #14
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    you seriously over estimate the size of the irish market :(
    Indeed. While the UK makes up a third of our imports, we only make up 7% of theirs. Not an insignificant figure, but considering the types of items we import from the UK, there is no way that we would stop importing the same volume of items from the UK. In fact, I would imagine that our UK imports would increase if we left the EU, as we try to source UK products to replace the others that are now too expensive to import.


  • #15
    Jack Sheehan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Jack Sheehan


    ...and that's why we're so afraid to go it alone.


  • #16
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    sink wrote: »
    Em, the EEA is the European Economic Area aka the common market. Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market. In return they don't have to turn up for meetings in Brussels were the decisions are made, yet they still have to abide by alot of those decisions.

    Switzerland have an entirely seperate bi-lateral agreements with the EU and are not in the EEA at all. Only Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein are in the EEA.

    Switzerland are in the EFTA though which is made up of the EEA members and themselves. Esentially they opted of of the arrangements negoiated in during the EEA foundation and went their own path. Confusing eh? :D

    This is all mainly semantics of course, your main point is entirely accurate.


  • #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave. The amount of employment they generate far exceeds what our fishing/agriculture industries could do in any reasonable timeframe.
    ..and that's why we're so afraid to go it alone.

    +1


  • #18
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    marco_polo wrote: »
    I think the idea merits at least our detailed consideration. Unfortunately you cannot even mention the word nuclear in this country without creating mass hysteria.

    Damn right. And death threats form Coir.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56287775


  • #19
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Switzerland have an entirely seperate bi-lateral agreements with the EU and are not in the EEA at all. Only Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein are in the EEA.

    Switzerland are in the EFTA though which is made up of the EEA members and themselves. Confusing eh? :D

    This is all mainly semantics of course, your main point is entirely accurate.

    Technically you are right. The Swiss did reject the entire EEA treaty in 93/94. Since then there has been 10 seperate treaties passed through referenda which constitute almost 99% of the EEA treaty making them de-facto members. There is really no difference between their bi-lateral agreements and being a member of the EEA.


  • #20
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    sink wrote: »
    Technically you are right. The Swiss did reject the entire EEA treaty in 93/94. Since then there has been 10 seperate treaties passed through referenda which constitute almost 99% of the EEA treaty making them de-facto members. There is really no difference between their bi-lateral agreements and being a member of the EEA.

    Woo Hoo!

    Seriously though I wasn't suggesting that there was any real difference in the terms or arrangements, but it seems that independance and neutrality are such deeply ingraned values in the Swiss that they objected to being in any sort alliance with other nations, rather than the terms of the agreement itself.

    As a matter of interest replacing the words Swiss / EEA and 93-94 in your post with Ireland / Lisbon and 2008 make an interesting scenario that has been mused upon out loud in recent days.


  • #21
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    you seriously over estimate the size of the irish market :(

    Of course, nobody could ever suggest that they are as dependent on access to our markets as we are on theirs. At the time though, I'm sure there are plenty of interests in Europe that might loose out if Ireland left the EU. The Spanish fishermen would be one group that might not be too happy about it. This might give us some bargaining power if it ever come to us negotiating the terms for our future relationship with the EU.

    sink wrote:
    Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market.

    I don't know the exact details of the terms of their membership but I have a feeling that the Norwegians and the Swiss have far more freedom to make decisions independently of the EU than we do. They might have to pass all EU legislation put in front of them but I'm sure the amount of legislation coming from the EU is far lower than we have to implement.

    Maybe we might not be able to do any better than the Norwegians or the Swiss but I think we should explore our options to see if it's possible to regain our independence while at the same time having access to the EU's markets.


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  • #22
    force eleven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭force eleven


    IRLConor wrote: »
    [[*] We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave.

    Really? Are there no multinational companies in Switzerland? And losing guaranteed access to the EU is entirely hypothetical. Yes, as this thread is, but it does need to be debated seriously as the pro Lisbon Eurocrats cast their vitriol at us from Brussels/Strasbourg


  • #23
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I don't know the exact details of the terms of their membership but I have a feeling that the Norwegians and the Swiss have far more freedom to make decisions independently of the EU than we do. They might have to pass all EU legislation put in front of them but I'm sure the amount of legislation coming from the EU is far lower than we have to implement.

    Maybe we might not be able to do any better than the Norwegians or the Swiss but I think we should explore our options to see if it's possible to regain our independence while at the same time having access to the EU's markets.
    +1
    We'd be due some consideration in return for stepping back so Lisbon can go ahead, we can't fight the battle for democracy for the citizens of the other 26 as it's clear their politicians are free to act regardless of what their people would say.

    I recall meeting a farmer in Galway who sang praises for the EU cheques, in between bumming pints. Turned out he was paid to leave his land unproductive, with nothing to do and all day to do it, he'd clearly lost was pride being on the Eurodole, it was him that was left fallow. Contrast that with success stories like Kerrygold and Glanbia who make productive use of resources.

    The Irish used to be known in Europe as lazy uneducated drunks (and it wasn't just my family), jaws dropped at the rise of the celtic tiger. That was only breakfast on the day our nation awoke. We're not the same as we were in the basket case years, we don't need to suckle at the teat of Brussels in fact we're net contributors now anyway. If we are to make a better democracy, society, and economy, it won't be done by those who fall to despair with a Vichy-France mindset, it'll be the energetic positive types.


  • #24
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    force eleven wrote: »

    Really? Are there no multinational companies in Switzerland? And losing guaranteed access to the EU is entirely hypothetical. Yes, as this thread is, but it does need to be debated seriously as the pro Lisbon Eurocrats cast their vitriol at us from Brussels/Strasbourg

    Switzerland economy has a very long history of being driven by the indigenous Financial and Banking sector. Driven almost entirely by foreign investment? Yes, but the dynamics are very much different to the Irish economy. One of main attractions is of course banking secrecy (which is a big factor in them remaining outside the EU).

    The main area of Swiss policy outside EU trade laws is agriculture and the subsidies they require to sustain this are are even higher than EU ones.


  • #25
    OmegaRed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭OmegaRed


    I think Puntius Da Rossa (spelling) said it best today:

    The EU have nothing to loose with the lose of Ireland, Ireland have everything to loose with the lose of the EU


  • #26
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    force eleven wrote: »
    IRLConor wrote: »
    • We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave.

    Really? Are there no multinational companies in Switzerland? And losing guaranteed access to the EU is entirely hypothetical.

    The specifics of that part of my post were that we were outside the EU and the EEA. We'd be in a worse position than Switzerland. Can you think of any small, western, non-EEA country with anything even approaching the number of multinational-based jobs as Ireland?

    If we didn't lose guaranteed access to the EU it would almost certainly be because we were in the EEA, hence point 1 in my post would apply, not point 2 which you quoted.


  • #27
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Could I also add location, location, location to my point about the Swiss.


  • #28
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    IRLConor wrote: »
    Can you think of any small, western, non-EEA country with anything even approaching the number of multinational-based jobs as Ireland?


    just look at ireland vs new zealand

    *both english speaking
    *84,412 km² [whole island :p ] vs 268,680 km²
    *at farthest points away from each other
    *one is in EU another is in the Pacific ocean
    *4.3 vs 4.2 million people
    *GDP per capita: $~50,000 vs $~30,000
    *head of state: Brian Cowen :p vs HM Queen Elizabeth II :p:p


  • #29
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    OmegaRed wrote: »
    The EU have nothing to loose with the lose of Ireland

    I wouldn't be so sure about that. Ireland wasn't really of much economic value to Britain during the 19th century but that didn't stop many British politicians agonising over the prospect of Ireland leaving the union. They knew that if one country left it might set an example to others and would eventually lead to the break up of their empire. If Ireland's withdrawal from the EU were to become a serious possibility then I'm sure similar thoughts might occupy the minds of the EU's leaders.


  • #30
    PH01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭PH01


    whitser wrote: »
    why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
    we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
    i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.

    This is all a bit Éamon de Valera and those "comely maidens, dancing at the crossroads"?

    Or, maybe we could asked to rejoin the United Kingdom and say sorry for the mess?
    ;)


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  • #31
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I don't know the exact details of the terms of their membership but I have a feeling that the Norwegians and the Swiss have far more freedom to make decisions independently of the EU than we do. They might have to pass all EU legislation put in front of them but I'm sure the amount of legislation coming from the EU is far lower than we have to implement.

    Maybe we might not be able to do any better than the Norwegians or the Swiss but I think we should explore our options to see if it's possible to regain our independence while at the same time having access to the EU's markets.

    You are correct that they don't have to pass as much EU legislation as we do. They don't partake in the social aspects of the EU (Workers rights, equal pay, health & safety etc.). If Ireland didn't partake we would have no such legislation because our government has never passed any. Hardly a good reason to leave if you ask me.


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