why so afraid to go it alone

whitser

why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.

dresden8

whitser wrote: »

why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.

We're still better in than out. The temper tantrum being thrown by the "European Elite" shouldn't blind us to that. Otherwise we'd be totally at the mercy of mad oul'wans who vote FF, and don't want their sons conscripted.

brianthebard

Dev, is that you? seriously though Ireland's resources aren't that bountiless. We need to belong to a trading bloc of some sort.

IRLConor

whitser wrote: »

why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.

Well there are two options:

1. Leave the EU and remain within the EEA
2. Leave the EU and stay outside the EEA

Which have the following consequences:

1. We gain some autonomy, but in practise will end up adopting all of the EU laws anyway à la Iceland/Norway. The only difference would be that we'd get no say in how those laws are passed.
2. We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave. The amount of employment they generate far exceeds what our fishing/agriculture industries could do in any reasonable timeframe. How many of that young, educated workforce fancy a spell on a trawler?

Option 1 gives us very little benefit and arguably we lose out. Option 2 would be lunacy and would be disastrous.

mike65

we've plenty of gas

No we haven't. Kinsale is almost exhausted and the Mayo field is pretty modest. We have no oil until its found.

Mike.

Diatom

How long until the rest of the world would slap massive taxes on our exports to penalize us for our corporate tax rate without the common EU market protecting us? Ireland would be over...

BTW our fisheries are 85% depleted, the gas deposits are tiny, there is no economically viable oil deposits, and our farm products are some of the most expensive in the world (the 1.7 billion in Irish farm subsidies only make them seem affordable).

Ireland lives off providing high quality, affordable services to the rest of the world... there is no going it alone.

turgon

We should invest in nuclear energy. Clean and renewable.

And not as bad as Coir would like us to think.

Now, how many will pull the Chernybel card? Because I suppose a fundamentally faulty Soviet power station manned by coal workers doing a ludicrous test is what we would install here if we did invest in Nuclear :rolleyes:

marco_polo

turgon wrote: »

We should invest in nuclear energy. Clean and renewable.

And not as bad as Coir would like us to think.

Now, how many will pull the Chernybel card? Because I suppose a fundamentally faulty Soviet power station manned by coal workers doing a ludicrous test is what we would install here if we did invest in Nuclear :rolleyes:

I think the idea merits at least our detailed consideration. Unfortunately you cannot even mention the word nuclear in this country without creating mass hysteria.

seamus

As IRLConor points out, the bulk of our workforce are in secondary and tertiary industries, doing jobs provided by US and EU multinationals. Without the free trade access to the EU and easy access through its borders, many of these companies would have little incentive to use us as their European hub and would up sticks and leave.

Agriculture, fishing and other primary industries cannot supply sufficient employment to maintain ourselves at our current quality of life. Most of our population knows nothing about farming or fishing, and without the protection/regulation of the EU, we'd probably find ourselves farming the land to nothing and foreign vessels fishing our waters empty.

I tend to use Intel when making statement about the economy. It was the arrival of Intel in the early 90's which heralded the start of our boom and convinced other companies to make a go here. If Intel pulled out, you'd see an identical pattern across the technology and information industries, and a mass exodus of the population who are employed in those sectors. Unemployment and emigration would skyrocket, tax income would plummet and the entire country would very quickly have to tighten their belts.

It's a distinct possibility that this would happen if we pulled out of the EU, but by no means a certainty. It would require us to negotiate trade agreements/treaties with the EU or EU nations anyway, and we could very quickly suffer from the differences in VAT rates and import duties.

ionix5891

whitser wrote: »

we have an educated young work force

where will these people work when its unprofitable for majority of businesses to remain in this country? remember the high emigration rate/ brain drain up to the 90s??

whitser wrote: »

rich fishing grounds

whats left of them?! see Scofflaw's thread on fishing industry please, you rather we export cod than microchips?

whitser wrote: »

best farming

heavily subsidised by the EU

whitser wrote: »

we've plenty of gas

then why do we import most of the gas used from far away places like russia?

whitser wrote: »

im sure theres oil out there too.

:rolleyes:

whitser wrote: »

we've wind power

india has more windfarms than ireland

whitser wrote: »

theres life outside the eu.

of course there is, we all remember the GOOD OLE DAYSH before Ireland joined the EU


so you propose a radical move from the services sector to the primary activities? how the hell will a small country remain competitive on the world stage? arghghghghhghg

turgon wrote: »

We should invest in nuclear energy. Clean and renewable.

i agree with you turgon but thats a separate issue

O'Morris

IRLConor wrote: »

Well there are two options:

1. Leave the EU and remain within the EEA
2. Leave the EU and stay outside the EEA

I don't think it's limited to those two options. A third option would be that we leave the EU but we stay in the common market on terms which are beneficial both to us and to the rest of the EU. Unlike Norway or Iceland we could continue to contribute financially to the EU and unlike them also we could continue to allow open access to our fisheries and other other national resources. In return though the EU would have to allow us to govern ourselves.

People forget that other countries benefit from having access to our markets as well. 9% of our imports come from Germany, 36% from Britain and 4% from the Netherlands. It's in their interest as well as ours that we stay in the common market.

ionix5891

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't think it's limited to those two options. A third option would be that we leave the EU but we stay in the common market on terms which are beneficial both to us and to the rest of the EU. Unlike Norway or Iceland we could continue to contribute financially to the EU and unlike them also we could continue to allow open access to our fisheries and other other national resources. In return though the EU would have to allow us to govern ourselves.

People forget that other countries benefit from having access to our markets as well. 9% of our imports come from Germany, 36% from Britain and 4% from the Netherlands. It's in their interest as well as ours that we stay in the common market.

you seriously over estimate the size of the irish market

sink

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't think it's limited to those two options. A third option would be that we leave the EU but we stay in the common market on terms which are beneficial both to us and to the rest of the EU. Unlike Norway or Iceland we could continue to contribute financially to the EU and unlike them also we could continue to allow open access to our fisheries and other other national resources. In return though the EU would have to allow us to govern ourselves.

People forget that other countries benefit from having access to our markets as well. 9% of our imports come from Germany, 36% from Britain and 4% from the Netherlands. It's in their interest as well as ours that we stay in the common market.

Em, the EEA is the European Economic Area aka the common market. Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market. In return they don't have to turn up for meetings in Brussels were the decisions are made, yet they still have to abide by alot of those decisions.

seamus

ionix5891 wrote: »

you seriously over estimate the size of the irish market

Indeed. While the UK makes up a third of our imports, we only make up 7% of theirs. Not an insignificant figure, but considering the types of items we import from the UK, there is no way that we would stop importing the same volume of items from the UK. In fact, I would imagine that our UK imports would increase if we left the EU, as we try to source UK products to replace the others that are now too expensive to import.

Jack Sheehan

...and that's why we're so afraid to go it alone.

marco_polo

sink wrote: »

Em, the EEA is the European Economic Area aka the common market. Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market. In return they don't have to turn up for meetings in Brussels were the decisions are made, yet they still have to abide by alot of those decisions.

Switzerland have an entirely seperate bi-lateral agreements with the EU and are not in the EEA at all. Only Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein are in the EEA.

Switzerland are in the EFTA though which is made up of the EEA members and themselves. Esentially they opted of of the arrangements negoiated in during the EEA foundation and went their own path. Confusing eh?

This is all mainly semantics of course, your main point is entirely accurate.

We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave. The amount of employment they generate far exceeds what our fishing/agriculture industries could do in any reasonable timeframe.

..and that's why we're so afraid to go it alone.

+1

turgon

marco_polo wrote: »

I think the idea merits at least our detailed consideration. Unfortunately you cannot even mention the word nuclear in this country without creating mass hysteria.

Damn right. And death threats form Coir.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56287775

sink

marco_polo wrote: »

Switzerland have an entirely seperate bi-lateral agreements with the EU and are not in the EEA at all. Only Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein are in the EEA.

Switzerland are in the EFTA though which is made up of the EEA members and themselves. Confusing eh?

This is all mainly semantics of course, your main point is entirely accurate.

Technically you are right. The Swiss did reject the entire EEA treaty in 93/94. Since then there has been 10 seperate treaties passed through referenda which constitute almost 99% of the EEA treaty making them de-facto members. There is really no difference between their bi-lateral agreements and being a member of the EEA.

marco_polo

sink wrote: »

Technically you are right. The Swiss did reject the entire EEA treaty in 93/94. Since then there has been 10 seperate treaties passed through referenda which constitute almost 99% of the EEA treaty making them de-facto members. There is really no difference between their bi-lateral agreements and being a member of the EEA.

Woo Hoo!

Seriously though I wasn't suggesting that there was any real difference in the terms or arrangements, but it seems that independance and neutrality are such deeply ingraned values in the Swiss that they objected to being in any sort alliance with other nations, rather than the terms of the agreement itself.

As a matter of interest replacing the words Swiss / EEA and 93-94 in your post with Ireland / Lisbon and 2008 make an interesting scenario that has been mused upon out loud in recent days.

O'Morris

ionix5891 wrote: »

you seriously over estimate the size of the irish market

Of course, nobody could ever suggest that they are as dependent on access to our markets as we are on theirs. At the time though, I'm sure there are plenty of interests in Europe that might loose out if Ireland left the EU. The Spanish fishermen would be one group that might not be too happy about it. This might give us some bargaining power if it ever come to us negotiating the terms for our future relationship with the EU.

sink wrote:

Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market.

I don't know the exact details of the terms of their membership but I have a feeling that the Norwegians and the Swiss have far more freedom to make decisions independently of the EU than we do. They might have to pass all EU legislation put in front of them but I'm sure the amount of legislation coming from the EU is far lower than we have to implement.

Maybe we might not be able to do any better than the Norwegians or the Swiss but I think we should explore our options to see if it's possible to regain our independence while at the same time having access to the EU's markets.

force eleven

IRLConor wrote: »

[[*] We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave.

Really? Are there no multinational companies in Switzerland? And losing guaranteed access to the EU is entirely hypothetical. Yes, as this thread is, but it does need to be debated seriously as the pro Lisbon Eurocrats cast their vitriol at us from Brussels/Strasbourg

democrates

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't know the exact details of the terms of their membership but I have a feeling that the Norwegians and the Swiss have far more freedom to make decisions independently of the EU than we do. They might have to pass all EU legislation put in front of them but I'm sure the amount of legislation coming from the EU is far lower than we have to implement.

Maybe we might not be able to do any better than the Norwegians or the Swiss but I think we should explore our options to see if it's possible to regain our independence while at the same time having access to the EU's markets.

+1
We'd be due some consideration in return for stepping back so Lisbon can go ahead, we can't fight the battle for democracy for the citizens of the other 26 as it's clear their politicians are free to act regardless of what their people would say.

I recall meeting a farmer in Galway who sang praises for the EU cheques, in between bumming pints. Turned out he was paid to leave his land unproductive, with nothing to do and all day to do it, he'd clearly lost was pride being on the Eurodole, it was him that was left fallow. Contrast that with success stories like Kerrygold and Glanbia who make productive use of resources.

The Irish used to be known in Europe as lazy uneducated drunks (and it wasn't just my family), jaws dropped at the rise of the celtic tiger. That was only breakfast on the day our nation awoke. We're not the same as we were in the basket case years, we don't need to suckle at the teat of Brussels in fact we're net contributors now anyway. If we are to make a better democracy, society, and economy, it won't be done by those who fall to despair with a Vichy-France mindset, it'll be the energetic positive types.

marco_polo

force eleven wrote: »

Really? Are there no multinational companies in Switzerland? And losing guaranteed access to the EU is entirely hypothetical. Yes, as this thread is, but it does need to be debated seriously as the pro Lisbon Eurocrats cast their vitriol at us from Brussels/Strasbourg

Switzerland economy has a very long history of being driven by the indigenous Financial and Banking sector. Driven almost entirely by foreign investment? Yes, but the dynamics are very much different to the Irish economy. One of main attractions is of course banking secrecy (which is a big factor in them remaining outside the EU).

The main area of Swiss policy outside EU trade laws is agriculture and the subsidies they require to sustain this are are even higher than EU ones.

OmegaRed

I think Puntius Da Rossa (spelling) said it best today:

The EU have nothing to loose with the lose of Ireland, Ireland have everything to loose with the lose of the EU

IRLConor

force eleven wrote: »

IRLConor wrote: »

• We lose guaranteed access to the EU. All the multinationals headquartered here will up sticks and leave.

Really? Are there no multinational companies in Switzerland? And losing guaranteed access to the EU is entirely hypothetical.

The specifics of that part of my post were that we were outside the EU and the EEA. We'd be in a worse position than Switzerland. Can you think of any small, western, non-EEA country with anything even approaching the number of multinational-based jobs as Ireland?

If we didn't lose guaranteed access to the EU it would almost certainly be because we were in the EEA, hence point 1 in my post would apply, not point 2 which you quoted.

marco_polo

Could I also add location, location, location to my point about the Swiss.

ionix5891

IRLConor wrote: »

Can you think of any small, western, non-EEA country with anything even approaching the number of multinational-based jobs as Ireland?

just look at ireland vs new zealand

*both english speaking
*84,412 km² [whole island ] vs 268,680 km²
*at farthest points away from each other
*one is in EU another is in the Pacific ocean
*4.3 vs 4.2 million people
*GDP per capita: $~50,000 vs $~30,000
*head of state: Brian Cowen vs HM Queen Elizabeth II :p

O'Morris

OmegaRed wrote: »

The EU have nothing to loose with the lose of Ireland

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Ireland wasn't really of much economic value to Britain during the 19th century but that didn't stop many British politicians agonising over the prospect of Ireland leaving the union. They knew that if one country left it might set an example to others and would eventually lead to the break up of their empire. If Ireland's withdrawal from the EU were to become a serious possibility then I'm sure similar thoughts might occupy the minds of the EU's leaders.

PH01

whitser wrote: »

why are people so afraid of ireland going it alone?
we have an educated young work force, rich fishing grounds, best farming land and products in the eu, we've plenty of gas and im sure theres oil out there too. we've wind power,peat,forestry etc...
i feel that ireland is talking its self down when it comes to the eu and its pay masters. we shouldnt be afraid to say no. theres life outside the eu.

This is all a bit Éamon de Valera and those "comely maidens, dancing at the crossroads"?

Or, maybe we could asked to rejoin the United Kingdom and say sorry for the mess?

sink

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't know the exact details of the terms of their membership but I have a feeling that the Norwegians and the Swiss have far more freedom to make decisions independently of the EU than we do. They might have to pass all EU legislation put in front of them but I'm sure the amount of legislation coming from the EU is far lower than we have to implement.

Maybe we might not be able to do any better than the Norwegians or the Swiss but I think we should explore our options to see if it's possible to regain our independence while at the same time having access to the EU's markets.

You are correct that they don't have to pass as much EU legislation as we do. They don't partake in the social aspects of the EU (Workers rights, equal pay, health & safety etc.). If Ireland didn't partake we would have no such legislation because our government has never passed any. Hardly a good reason to leave if you ask me.

VoidStarNull

Personnally I am not afraid of going it alone, but I think that Ireland has a lot to offer to the EU and it would be a dreadful shame if we decided to go and hide under a rock. We should be involved, making our contribution and letting others in the EU and in the world know our views. It may be tough sometimes to debate with others who don't agree with you, but it's better than running away and hiding in the corner.

murphaph

sink wrote: »

Em, the EEA is the European Economic Area aka the common market. Both Norway and Switzerland are members of the EEA but on slightly different terms. They still can not govern themselves in regards to trade and other areas to do with the common market. In return they don't have to turn up for meetings in Brussels were the decisions are made, yet they still have to abide by alot of those decisions.

Why do they put up with this situation? I mean, why tolerate these negatives-there must be some advantage for them?

sink

murphaph wrote: »

Why do they put up with this situation? I mean, why tolerate these negatives-there must be some advantage for them?

They don't see the bigger picture like alot of Irish. They are happy with the appearence of independence, the fact that they rely on their EU trading partners for jobs, security and even legislation does not seem to dawn on them. Same goes for people over here calling on Ireland to withdraw from the EU and just remain part of the common market. They don't realise that we would be giving up even more power than we would gain as we would just loose our seats at the decision making table while still having to implement most of the laws.

marco_polo

murphaph wrote: »

Why do they put up with this situation? I mean, why tolerate these negatives-there must be some advantage for them?

Norway - Lots of oil and upwards of 180bn of cash reserves that they have no idea how to spend.

Switzerland - A major proportion of the worlds finance locked up in their highly secretive financial system, that is probably incompatible with EU law currently.

Ireland - Not a whole lot really

hmmm

marco_polo wrote: »

Norway - Lots of oil and upwards of 180bn of cash reserves that they have no idea how to spend.

Switzerland - A major proportion of the worlds finance locked up in their highly secretive financial system, that is probably incompatible with EU law currently.

Ireland - Not a whole lot really

Summed it up perfectly. If we want access to the EU markets after having left the EU, they will require us to implement most EU rules. Otherwise it would be unfair competition for EU based producers who would have to implement the rules. We would lose access to the EU decision making table and would not be part of EU negotiating teams at the world table (e.g. farmers would not have a say at the WTO talks).

On top of that we would be required to contribute to the EU budget and we would lose EU funding (e.g. farmers again).

Essentially we would be in the same position we are now for the most part and it would cost us several billion euros a year.

democrates

hmmm wrote: »

Summed it up perfectly. If we want access to the EU markets after having left the EU, they will require us to implement most EU rules. Otherwise it would be unfair competition for EU based producers who would have to implement the rules. We would lose access to the EU decision making table and would not be part of EU negotiating teams at the world table (e.g. farmers would not have a say at the WTO talks).

On top of that we would be required to contribute to the EU budget and we would lose EU funding (e.g. farmers again).

Essentially we would be in the same position we are now for the most part and it would cost us several billion euros a year.

How does that proposal work again, we step outside of decision-making but still pay into the budget, I feel a no vote coming on. Is that tea I smell, no taxation without representation would be the most basic requirement.

There's no way the Swiss are going to join the EU until such time as it passes the democracy test, let alone is it getting no closer, it's getting further away from direct citizen say.

As for WTO talks, the Doha round while not dead is being wheeled around a nursing home since for the first time in history poor countries have had the audacity to insist on a deal with some nod in the direction of fairness, and have evaded the usual green room divide and conquor tactics. The food price crisis and rise of protectionism is more likely to stall it further than add impetus.

But looking ahead to someday, if we don't have an agreement with the EU on a WTO position, so what, we already represent ourselves being full WTO members since 1995. As others have pointed out, we've rarely been isolated on an issue in Europe, including farming, it's likely the EU position at WTO talks is the best we could have achieved anyway, but ultimately we still get to vote our own way at WTO as always.

Also recall that just recently our territorial waters expanded substantially over the Atlantic continental shelf, we have a strong card to play on access for fishing and it's as yet unknown how much oil, gas, and other goodies lie out there.

As for access to EU markets, that's a two-way street. On trade it is asymmetric of course, on labour a mirrored curve. The latter gives us plenty of support from various EU members to do a deal on the former.

This is by no means a complete list of the cards in our hand, and the trump is that we can offer to step back and allow Lisbon ratification proceed. The other 26 members' citizens may not want it and don't seem sufficiently outraged to take to the streets to stop it, but their politicians certainly do. They'll do a deal to get their hands on the chalice of power they've been chasing for so long, it is tantalisingly close and they can almost touch it.

whitser

very good points there. but i still think that we shouldnt be so relient on the eu. would we realyy crash and burn without the eu? i dont think so. and im certainly not talking about dancing at cross roads, which seems to be the first thing said when anyone talks about independence from the eu. just cos i feel that ireland is quite capable of standing on its own doesnt mean i want a return to devs ways. also in a world facing a food shortage we have rich seas and land that produces good food. and theres plenty of gas out there otherwise shell wouldnt be out there,imo.

The Corinthian

Has anyone ever bought Swiss agricultural goods in the EU? Seriously, any attempt to compare Switzerland (or even Norway with its oil-funded economy) is frankly idiotic. Indeed, if we realistically want to compare ourselves to the Swiss, we should begin having an industrial revolution first. Indeed, we might actually try that whole neutrality thing too - the Swiss refused air space access to US military flights, as opposed to our facilitating them in Shannon.

I suspect that many of those who are suggesting 'going it alone' are too young to remember Ireland before the nineties. It was ****. We'd tried the whole 'going it alone' thing since the Irish Free State and it took us an odd 70 years to realize what a dumb idea it really was. I really cannot describe well enough what a hand-to-mouth existence we had here, and it's not as if we all became more industrious thanks to the Celtic Tiger - it's just that the industrious ones stopped emigrating.

I've just never really understood this isolationist, xenophobic, maidens-at-the-crossroads nationalism you get in Ireland, especially given it's more than happy to ruin the lives of everyone on principle alone. Maybe Brendan Behan was right when he suggested that "other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis."

whitser

does that mean we have to swallow everthing from the eu elite? the eu we joined in the 70's is not what we are in now,imo. i feel its slowly advancing towards an eu super state, a united states of europe and i dont want to be in that. the total lack of respect for our referendum result shows the contempt the eu elite have for the irish people. we were asked to vote,we said no and they dont give a fcuk.

ionix5891

whitser wrote: »

does that mean we have to swallow everthing from the eu elite? the eu we joined in the 70's is not what we are in now,imo. i feel its slowly advancing towards an eu super state, a united states of europe and i dont want to be in that. the total lack of respect for our referendum result shows the contempt the eu elite have for the irish people. we were asked to vote,we said no and they dont give a fcuk.

our representatives gave out at the french and the dutch too when they voted No and we kept going ahead

we are not different than the rest so quit moaning and take your tinfoil hat off

whitser

why if you question the eu are you in favour of dancing at cross roads dev style ireland?
do people really think that its the eu or bust

O'Morris

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suspect that many of those who are suggesting 'going it alone' are too young to remember Ireland before the nineties.

Why do you say before the nineties? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say before the seventies?

It was ****. We'd tried the whole 'going it alone' thing since the Irish Free State and it took us an odd 70 years to realize what a dumb idea it really was.

There are still a few of die-hard Irish nationalists knocking around. Many of us would like to give it just one last shot.

I really cannot describe well enough what a hand-to-mouth existence we had here, and it's not as if we all became more industrious thanks to the Celtic Tiger - it's just that the industrious ones stopped emigrating.

I'm sure it was very bad. And I'm sure it would be very bad if we tried to repeat the economic policies of those times. That's why nobody is advocating that we scrap our low corporation tax or that we withdraw from the common market with the EU.

The Corinthian

whitser wrote: »

does that mean we have to swallow everthing from the eu elite?

The topic is "why so afraid to go it alone" - are you suggesting that the only alternative to going it alone is "to swallow everything from the EU elite"?

we were asked to vote,we said no and they dont give a fcuk.

Actually we were not asked to vote.

The reality is that how the EU operates at present is via treaties because it is still a collection of independent countries. That means that agreements are obtuse and pushed through by unelected diplomats and the like.

Think that's undemocratic? Fair enough. How about we pass power to the European parliament where we have democratically elected representatives then? (Cue Eurosceptics doing a U-turn on the democracy argument and bleating about sovereignty).

democrates

The Corinthian wrote: »

Has anyone ever bought Swiss agricultural goods in the EU?

Eh, Nestle ring any bells?

In fairness, they are one Swiss example which support the case that going too far with direct democracy may lead to selfishness. Why do Swiss citizens not stop Nestle ruining the lives of third world mothers with baby milk formula, why allow Syngentas' GM escapades, or the banks hoarding looted Jewish gold and providing facilities to international criminals. Self preservation is one thing and one can appreciate their historical fears, but profiting from the misery of others is quite another.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suspect that many of those who are suggesting 'going it alone' are too young to remember Ireland before the nineties. It was ****. We'd tried the whole 'going it alone' thing since the Irish Free State and it took us an odd 70 years to realize what a dumb idea it really was. I really cannot describe well enough what a hand-to-mouth existence we had here, and it's not as if we all became more industrious thanks to the Celtic Tiger - it's just that the industrious ones stopped emigrating.

I remember it well, no jobs, the emigration brain drain, Charvais Charlie saying "tighten your belts", the Boomtown Rats summed it up fairly in "Banana Republic".

But I haven't heard anyone propose a return to Dev's protectionist policies, we're one of the most open economies in the world and in or out of the EU we can keep on trading.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I've just never really understood this isolationist, xenophobic, maidens-at-the-crossroads nationalism you get in Ireland, especially given it's more than happy to ruin the lives of everyone on principle alone. Maybe Brendan Behan was right when he suggested that "other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis."

Again I think that's the position of a tiny minority.

Scofflaw

This is by no means a complete list of the cards in our hand, and the trump is that we can offer to step back and allow Lisbon ratification proceed. The other 26 members' citizens may not want it and don't seem sufficiently outraged to take to the streets to stop it, but their politicians certainly do. They'll do a deal to get their hands on the chalice of power they've been chasing for so long, it is tantalisingly close and they can almost touch it.

What chalice of power? New QMV areas? A couple of new competences? The Presidency of the Council of Europe?

I swear, I remain completely baffled by the hysteria over Lisbon. What is so exciting about this Treaty? Have people never given the EU competences before? Never moved an area from unanimity to QMV before?

What is so exciting about Lisbon?

baffled,
Scofflaw

whitser

i just feel that ireland is quite capable of trading and doing well on its own. i dont like the direction the eu is going and i for one would rather out.

hmmm

democrates wrote: »

But I haven't heard anyone propose a return to Dev's protectionist policies, we're one of the most open economies in the world and in or out of the EU we can keep on trading.

Not without access to markets. For a small trading nation access to markets is everything. If we pull out of the EU, we have to negotiate access and pay for the privilege.

Besides which, if we were restricted in terms of access or if we had export restrictions placed on us by recipients of our produce, FDI would all but dry up. Why would Intel or any other multinational want to open a plant here if they could not be guaranteed access to EU markets?

If maintaining our employment and economic wellbeing is important, to even contemplate this as an option is madness.

ionix5891

whitser wrote: »

i just feel that ireland is quite capable of trading and doing well on its own. i dont like the direction the eu is going and i for one would rather out.

Do you own a business? do you have people employed?? Do you pay corporate and other taxes??? well i do and i find this situation highly disturbing

Europe will do fine without Ireland but whether Ireland will do fine without Europe is questionable since our economy and jobs are so tightly coupled

The Corinthian

democrates wrote: »

Eh, Nestle ring any bells?

What Swiss agricultural goods do they export to the EU? Beef? Corn? Sugar?

Switzerland excels at exporting giffen goods (chocolate, pharmaceuticals, watches, etc). Full stop.

But I haven't heard anyone propose a return to Dev's protectionist policies, we're one of the most open economies in the world and in or out of the EU we can keep on trading.

I don't think you understand how international trade works. We don't need to be protectionist to end up with a protectionist economy.

Scofflaw

I find it hard to imagine a worse position for the Irish economy than sitting outside the EU tariff wall.

cordially,
Scofflaw