Europe has been good to us?

ScumLord · 11-06-2008 01:46PM

suspectdevice wrote: »

no they did not. they came here for the well educated workforce who were prepared to work an honest day for an honest pay. and long term renewable low taxes.

i was in meetings with the ida and companies thinking about coming here and i saw the sales pitch.

I've heard the sales pitch myself through Enterprise Ireland, the oposit end from what your talking about but still the same frame of mind. But a sales pitch, is 90% bull****. Bottom line for any company is cost and profit.

suspectdevice · 11-06-2008 02:08PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I've heard the sales pitch myself through Enterprise Ireland, the oposit end from what your talking about but still the same frame of mind. But a sales pitch, is 90% bull****. Bottom line for any company is cost and profit.

it was medium to long term investment strategies for growth industries.

we are talking about the 80's early 90's even. we had a surplus of grads that had to go abroad to get work, why not keep them at home. we had an education system that had focussed on technology and engineering.

maybe the sales pitch from ei was bullpoop, i don't know. but the ida was a genuine effort to draw world class employers due to our intelligence and our tax breaks, based on the education system turning out educated people, educated for the factory floor to leaving certificate level or for the more technical/administration jobs to diploma or degree level.

the amount of people i know who took total advantage from the factory floor of part time education, applied and got jobs and made their way for themselves is massive. thats what they had to do and they done it. thats what it was built on, that type of attitude.

ireland was also a very attractive place for europeans to come and work. dublin, cork, galway, were all seen as cool cities to get a job abroad for other europeans, and thats down to the irish and their culture. and it worked.

our infrastructure was new and connectivity, after a while, was well ahead of a lot of the other countries vying for their business, that weren't german, french or english. we would walk all over italy, spain, austria, switzerland, scandanavia and that was an irish thing.

ScumLord · 11-06-2008 02:19PM

suspectdevice wrote: »

it was medium to long term investment strategies for growth industries.

we are talking about the 80's early 90's even. we had a surplus of grads that had to go abroad to get work, why not keep them at home. we had an education system that had focussed on technology and engineering.

maybe the sales pitch from ei was bullpoop, i don't know. but the ida was a genuine effort to draw world class employers due to our intelligence and our tax breaks, based on the education system turning out educated people, educated for the factory floor to leaving certificate level or for the more technical/administration jobs to diploma or degree level.

the amount of people i know who took total advantage from the factory floor of part time education, applied and got jobs and made their way for themselves is massive. thats what they had to do and they done it. thats what it was built on, that type of attitude.

ireland was also a very attractive place for europeans to come and work. dublin, cork, galway, were all seen as cool cities to get a job abroad for other europeans, and thats down to the irish and their culture. and it worked.

our infrastructure was new and connectivity, after a while, was well ahead of a lot of the other countries vying for their business, that weren't german, french or english. we would walk all over italy, spain, austria, switzerland, scandanavia and that was an irish thing.

Maybe the promise of infrastructure was there but it never materialized. I don't see how we where ever ahead of the pack in that respect, maybe when we had little cars on the road. I firmly believe the boom was completely wasted we drew in the company's with big promises (there's no doubt the Irish worker was attractive but.. bottom lines) and now we've nothing to show for it. Companies are leaving our transport system is still backward with no end in sight (I'm in the west where our N17 upgrade has been promised for years but stupid planning has seen it sent back because bypasses shouldn't include 7 roundabouts going back into the town (Tuam)).

Irish grads are going to have to start leaving the country again, if they set up shop here they can't compete on a global level and the country can't pull in foreign investment anymore.

The leaders had one good idea 20 years ago and ruined it.

ART6 · 11-06-2008 02:21PM

micmclo wrote: »

Ireland, the UK and places like Australia all have common law systems. We didn't get them from Europe, we always had it.
Unless you want to waaaaay back to the Gaelic chiefs and Brehon law.

The French model is a civil code system based on codes which is different to common law. So how did we replace the system we already had?

I think you misunderstand me. I didn't say we never had a system of common law until the EU came along. What I said was it gave us a system that largely replaced our own historical one for one based to an extent at least upon French law. As I undertand it, some 80% of Ireland's law is now founded in the superior court of the ECJ.

It might be worth noticing, in that respect, that for all of it's faults the common law of the countries you mention was based upon English law that had develoved in 800 years of steady implementation and reinforcement of democracy. If we look around the world, one of the oldest true democracies is the UK, followed (surprisingly) by the USA. France, Germany, and many of the mainland EU countries are very new democracies. Their law and democratic systems have not yet stood the test of time, but we are being told to give up our system for theirs.

suspectdevice · 11-06-2008 02:26PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Maybe the promise of infrastructure was there but it never materialized. I don't see how we where ever ahead of the pack in that respect, maybe when we had little cars on the road. I firmly believe the boom was completely wasted we drew in the company's with big promises (there's no doubt the Irish worker was attractive but.. bottom lines) and now we've nothing to show for it. Companies are leaving our transport system is still backward with no end in sight (I'm in the west where our N17 upgrade has been promised for years but stupid planning has seen it sent back because bypasses shouldn't include 7 roundabouts going back into the town (Tuam)).

Irish grads are going to have to start leaving the country again, if they set up shop here they can't compete on a global level and the country can't pull in foreign investment anymore.

The leaders had one good idea 20 years ago and ruined it.

i was talking about technology, met area networks, intl links, that type of thing. connectivity wise we were as advanced as the the uk since bt considered us to be domestic uk.

on the roads, regardless of anything, there must have been some huge incentives for companies to base themselves here and not in, say holland. huge.

and you're right, it was mismanaged. thats why we have to build upon what we have, 20 years experience of a well trained workforce and continued tax breaks

we should have held back on europe for a while, see how things would pan out

ScumLord · 11-06-2008 02:38PM

suspectdevice wrote: »

i was talking about technology, met area networks, intl links, that type of thing. connectivity wise we were as advanced as the the uk since bt considered us to be domestic uk.

on the roads, regardless of anything, there must have been some huge incentives for companies to base themselves here and not in, say holland. huge.

and you're right, it was mismanaged. thats why we have to build upon what we have, 20 years experience of a well trained workforce and continued tax breaks

we should have held back on europe for a while, see how things would pan out

Oh connectivity wise, we're still in reeling in amazement of this "broadband" thing out here in the west. It's only recently made it out past the pale. Dublin had these things for years but the rest of the country was forgotten about. Companies that set up in the west where probably given all types of promises and there was no real reason why they couldn't have been implemented on time if it wasn't for the toolbags in government.

The country's completely unbalanced. Development barely makes it out west, and what development we do get is so poorly planned they might as well have not bothered. This means Dublin is overburdened with everything.

I don't trust our lot, they're just not cut out for the job and need Europe there to show them how it's done.

suspectdevice · 11-06-2008 02:41PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Oh connectivity wise, we're still in reeling in amazement of this "broadband" thing out here in the west. It's only recently made it out past the pale. Dublin had these things for years but the rest of the country was forgotten about. Companies that set up in the west where probably given all types of promises and there was no real reason why they couldn't have been implemented on time if it wasn't for the toolbags in government.

The country's completely unbalanced. Development barely makes it out west, and what development we do get is so poorly planned they might as well have not bothered. This means Dublin is overburdened with everything.

I don't trust our lot, they're just not cut out for the job and need Europe there to show them how it's done.

maybe cowen and his cohorts will improve things.

best of luck anyways, nice talkin' to ya

ruskin · 11-06-2008 03:34PM

Vote no to Lisbon. Theres no going back after a yes vote, Europe will be changed forever

Macha · 11-06-2008 03:48PM

ruskin wrote: »

Vote no to Lisbon. Theres no going back after a yes vote, Europe will be changed forever

Do you have another reason for voting no, apart from an irrational fear of change?

Steve_o · 11-06-2008 04:02PM

ruskin wrote: »

Vote no to Lisbon. Theres no going back after a yes vote, Europe will be changed forever

This is a prime example of what pi$$es me off the most... stupid statements like this. This is the 3rd or 4th thread running on AH at the moment about the Lisbon Treaty... ENOUGH already!!!:mad:

SimpleSam06 · 11-06-2008 04:42PM

suspectdevice wrote: »

the eu pays for infrastructure to a certain extent but we have paid all the way along personally.

And what a great infrastructure we have to show for it.

suspectdevice wrote: »

oil has gone up because of profiteering, massive profiteering by everyone in the supplychain

Oil has gone up because people are worried about the economy, so they are starting to buy in oil on the world markets, its where they feel their money is safest, after the credit crunch. No conspiracy required.

Farming isn't screwed because of corporations, its screwed because the first world can't compete with the pennies per day labour rates of the third world, BUT they can't just start buying in food from Africa because that means the dictator du jour has complete control over your food supply. Hence the subsidies.

taconnol wrote: »

ALSO, Irish people don't seem to realise how screwed we are when it comes to energy. We import over 90% of our energy (98% when it comes to transport - remember all those miles we're driving in our beloved cars?) We are on the end of a VERY long gas pipline from Russia & if they switch off the gas, we will be the first and worst hit. It is only as part of the EU and part of a new EU common energy policy that we will be able to have any influence over Russia.

So hold on there a minute, if we don't vote yes they will cut off the power? wtf?

Not to mention that Ireland is as screwed on energy as it wants to be. Its the most ideally placed country in the world to take advantage of wind power (we already produce a good percentage of our power from wind), and with new developments in deep water turbines, we could handily produce the vast majority of our power from Atlantic winds. Not to mention stimulating local industry and jobs - just look at Denmark to see what I mean.

ScumLord · 11-06-2008 04:47PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Not to mention that Ireland is as screwed on energy as it wants to be. Its the most ideally placed country in the world to take advantage of wind power (we already produce a good percentage of our power from wind), and with new developments in deep water turbines, we could handily produce the vast majority of our power from Atlantic winds. Not to mention stimulating local industry and jobs - just look at Denmark to see what I mean.

We've loads of gas too, no? If only we could turn rain into power.

Irelands dieing farms could be an instant source of methane power.

Macha · 11-06-2008 04:48PM

*Sigh* I didn't say they WOULD cut the power off but my point is that as a single nation of approx 4m people, Russia isn't going to listen to us, but is a lot more likely to listen to the EU. It's about security of supply. I don't particularly trust Russia & I would feel a lot more secure if the EU was doing some energy negotiating on our behalf. Have you seen any of the shenanigans going on in the former Soviet-bloc countries with Russia? The whole situation is very volatile. Plus at the moment, Lithuania (I think) are stopping a pipeline being built from Russia into Europe. If the treaty goes through, one country won't be able to do this: to hold back the rest of Europe. It's more democratic.

Yeah, you're totally right about our wind & wave potential. It's just a shame FF is blind to it.

I don't think suspectdrive was talking about any sort of conspiracy theory. Profiteering is profiteering, not a conspiracy theory.

Edit: Scumlord, you're so right. Anaerobic digestion ftw. Plus we'd reduce our methane emissions & get rid of some waste. 3 birds, 1 stone.

SimpleSam06 · 11-06-2008 04:56PM

ScumLord wrote: »

We've loads of gas too, no? If only we could turn rain into power.

Yeah, that would be great. We could call it water electric, or hydro power or something.

taconnol wrote: »

*Sigh* I didn't say they WOULD cut the power off but my point is that as a single nation of approx 4m people, Russia isn't going to listen to us, but is a lot more likely to listen to the EU.

Thats not how it works. There isn't a pipe going from Moscow to Dublin with "Ireland's supplies" on it. In this case we are buying resold fuel from other countries, not just Russia, and importing it from commercial groups. Russia can't stipulate that Ireland doesn't get any, as if they would ever have reason to do so. Our distance from them is an advantage.

taconnol wrote: »

Yeah, you're totally right about our wind & wave potential. It's just a shame FF is blind to it.

Donkey cart politicians in the 21st century. Its time for a change.

Macha · 11-06-2008 05:02PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Thats not how it works. There isn't a pipe going from Moscow to Dublin with "Ireland's supplies" on it. In this case we are buying resold fuel from other countries, not just Russia, and importing it from commercial groups. Russia can't stipulate that Ireland doesn't get any, as if they would ever have reason to do so. Our distance from them is an advantage.

Yes it does come through other countries and if there is any shortage, we are at the back of the breadline. The rest of Europe will make sure to satisfy its consumers before any is sent on to us. It is a disadvantage

SimpleSam06 · 11-06-2008 05:10PM

taconnol wrote: »

Yes it does come through other countries and if there is any shortage, we are at the back of the breadline. The rest of Europe will make sure to satisfy its consumers before any is sent on to us. It is a disadvantage

Oil companies will sell to whoever wants to buy. If only Russia didn't control the entirety of the world's oil supplies, ha?

You're using fear to try to gain support for a yes vote, and you and various ministers who have made threatening noises towards the Irish if we don't vote yes are going to learn the hard way that we don't like that sort of thing around here.

We really don't.

suspectdevice · 11-06-2008 05:15PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

And what a great infrastructure we have to show for it.

we have? where? we have classic irish fu'ck ups everywhere but i can't see where we have adequate infrastructure

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Oil has gone up because people are worried about the economy, so they are starting to buy in oil on the world markets, its where they feel their money is safest, after the credit crunch. No conspiracy required.

who mentioned conspiracy? taints your response a little for me

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Farming isn't screwed because of corporations, its screwed because the first world can't compete with the pennies per day labour rates of the third world, BUT they can't just start buying in food from Africa because that means the dictator du jour has complete control over your food supply. Hence the subsidies.

farming as a way of life, a culture is screwed. same way as fishing. take the post in context. its a cultural thing we are losing. more and more people all over europe are moving from rural villages with small farmholdings in to the big cities in search of jobs and lifestyle. with no one to take up inheriting and working the land they have no other option than to sell it on to the large food producers.

cornbb · 11-06-2008 05:18PM

One of the primary visions of the EU was to create friendship between European nations thus preventing wars like WW2. It's been vastly successful in doing this. It promotes peace using a carrot approach, unlike the stick approach of the US. The EU is Batman, the US is the Incredible Hulk

So yes, the EU has been undeniably good for the whole world, including Ireland, who have also done extraordinarily well in a financial sense.

Macha · 11-06-2008 05:22PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Oil companies will sell to whoever wants to buy. If only Russia didn't control the entirety of the world's oil supplies, ha? You're using fear to try to gain support for a yes vote, and you and various ministers who have made threatening noises towards the Irish if we don't vote yes are going to learn the hard way that we don't like that sort of thing around here.

We really don't.

I would suggest you get rid of the 'you and your kind' tone. I'm not talking about oil. I'm talking about gas. You want to try and cook your dinner on an oil stove? Go right ahead. Good luck to you.

It isn't scaremongering to acknowledge an existing threat to the security of Ireland's gas supply. Ireland is seriously over dependent on imported energy. Fact. Europe, including Ireland, is highly dependent on Russia for gas. Fact. We are at the far end of the gas pipe. Fact. If Russia turns it off (which they have done in the past), we will be the first to suffer. Fact.

Conclusion: The Lisbon Treaty unites the EU's energy policy and therefore will allow us a better hand at the bargaining table with Russia. This will go some way to dealing with situation as described above.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0228/gazprom.html

You would do well to think before you accuse others of conspiracies and scaremongering.

SimpleSam06 · 11-06-2008 05:30PM

suspectdevice wrote: »

we have? where? we have classic irish fu'ck ups everywhere but i can't see where we have adequate infrastructure

Sarcasm!

suspectdevice wrote: »

farming as a way of life, a culture is screwed.

They'd better get in line with the buggy whip makers so.

cornbb wrote: »

So yes, the EU has been undeniably good for the whole world, including Ireland, who have also done extraordinarily well in a financial sense.

Sloblocks. We lost three euros for every euro we gained, and thats just in fish stocks.

taconnol wrote: »

You want to try and cook your dinner on an oil stove? Go right ahead. Good luck to you.

I cook it on an electric hob, no luck required.

taconnol wrote: »

Fact. Europe, including Ireland, is highly dependent on Russia for gas. Fact. We are at the far end of the gas pipe. Fact. If Russia turns it off (which they have done in the past), we will be the first to suffer. Fact.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

cornbb · 11-06-2008 05:32PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Sloblocks. We lost three euros for every euro we gained, and thats just in fish stocks.

Fish stocks? What about the other 99.9% of our Economy? Our infrastructure? Our infrastructure still sucks, but we may not even have many of the roads, railway lines and buses we do without EU funding.

Way to ignore the point I made about the EU saving Europe from large-scale wars by the way...

Macha · 11-06-2008 05:34PM

And where do you think a large part of your electricity comes from? Just under 50% of Ireland's electricity is produced from...yes you got it in one! Natural Gas!!

Sorry but those are facts. I'm not going to get into an epistemological debate with you but I'd really love to see you refute one of those facts as opposed to just making some vague allusions that they're not true.

In 2006 Ireland imported 90% of its gas. Government policy is to increase our national dependency on natural gas to over 50%. We would be mad to try and do this without the EU's clout behind us.

ART6 · 11-06-2008 05:39PM

Ireland isn't dependant on Russia for natural gas. Take a look at http://www.bordgais.ie/corporate/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=97&3nID=354&nID=365

Ireland is dependant on the UK's North Sea reserves. Yes, they will run out in due course, and Russia has massive reserves, so we may end up with them, but not for a long time yet. Will the UK cut us off for political reasons? Come on now!

However, if the comment means we have reason to be wary of Russia, then I agree to a point, having done business there for the past five years. The Russian ruling class has begun to realise that this democracy business is a two edged sword, and that there is a lot to be said for an autocracy. Anyone care to make a comparison with the Lisbon Treaty?

SimpleSam06 · 11-06-2008 05:45PM

cornbb wrote: »

Fish stocks? What about the other 99.9% of our Economy? Our infrastructure? Our infrastructure still sucks, but we may not even have many of the roads, railway lines and buses we do without EU funding.

You don't get it. For every euro we received from the EU, we could have made three from our fish stocks. We could have had strong local industries in processing, export and shipbuilding. Greenland didn't join the EU because it didn't want EU ships plundering its fishing grounds, why do you think they did that?

cornbb wrote: »

Way to ignore the point I made about the EU saving Europe from large-scale wars by the way...

The advent of nuclear weapons has made that academic in any case.

taconnol wrote: »

And where do you think a large part of your electricity comes from? Just under 50% of Ireland's electricity is produced from...yes you got it in one! Natural Gas!!

And did you miss the wind power thingy there? 6% of our power comes from that, and it doubled in 2004. We could easily supply most or all of our power from wind.

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry but those are facts.

Again you use that word. Look at ART6's post there, good post btw.

taconnol wrote: »

Government policy is to increase our national dependency on natural gas to over 50%.

I get the feeling this government won't be around for long, tbh.

Macha · 11-06-2008 05:47PM

Hmm, I knew that a lot of our gas came from the North Sea (which is mainly owned by Norway, not the UK) but I did read that we also took in a lot of gas from Russia. I'll have to find a source.

Bord Gais is 1 or 3 major importers of gas into Ireland so they may be maimly talking about their own operations.

Edit: Simplesam, I know that we have fantastic wind resources but our national grid is not suitable for wind energy at the moment. It needs huge investment and time to make it more suitable. I hope you're right about this government.

AARRRGH · 11-06-2008 05:49PM

Joining the EU allowed lots of good looking Europeans come here to live and work. This gives us a greater chance of having good looking babies.

EU FTW.

suspectdevice · 11-06-2008 05:52PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Sarcasm!

poor effort

SimpleSam06 wrote:

They'd better get in line with the buggy whip makers so.

but i'm getting to notice it

SimpleSam06 · 11-06-2008 05:53PM

taconnol wrote: »

Edit: Simplesam, I know that we have fantastic wind resources but our national grid is not suitable for wind energy at the moment. It needs huge investment and time to make it more suitable. I hope you're right about this government.

True, the electricity from wind is more wobbly than the electricity from power stations. This wobbly could propagate up the power lines and destabilise us, possibly causing the whole country to flip over. I agree this is an unacceptable risk.

Stop using fear to try to help a yes vote. Its not helping your cause, and you got drubbed up and down the thread by the facts.

suspectdevice · 11-06-2008 05:55PM

cornbb wrote: »

Fish stocks? What about the other 99.9% of our Economy? Our infrastructure? Our infrastructure still sucks, but we may not even have many of the roads, railway lines and buses we do without EU funding.

Way to ignore the point I made about the EU saving Europe from large-scale wars by the way...

railway lines and buses from the eu. is that where they come from. i thought we bought off the film set for gandhi

why would ever want to be saved from war when we are neutral? war is not an issue here

Macha · 11-06-2008 05:56PM

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

True, the electricity from wind is more wobbly than the electricity from power stations. This wobbly could propagate up the power lines and destabilise us, possibly causing the whole country to flip over. I agree this is an unacceptable risk.

Stop using fear to try to help a yes vote. Its not helping your cause, and you got drubbed up and down the thread by the facts.

Hi-larious. You talk about wind energy being more 'wobbly' and then pass comments about the credibility of MY facts?? You're hilarious.

I think the word you're looking for is 'intermittency'.

Europe has been good to us?

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