Vote for Europe..ahem..Lisbon.

syklops · 02-06-2008 12:14AM #1

So I started reading the Lisbon Treaty, and for some unknown reason I fell asleep. I started reading it again, and for some reason I got this urge to clean the house. I never get those feelings so I went out for a while and then gave up on the whole idea.

What I need is an idiots guide to the whole lisbon treaty. A complete and utter twits guide. Now I would consider myself quite smart. I'm not a dexter from dexter's lab, but I can read thick books with no pictures, I can write code in languages such as C and Perl, I can read maps, and even program my VCR(or I could when we had a VCR). However dispite this, I feel I need a complete flipping moron's explanation of the whole Lisbon thing. To be honest I don't think I am the only person in this situation, and so I am calling on the government(haha I mean the referendum commission, like the govt could give us a well sided discussion!!), as well as the world's most loved clergymen to clue us all in.

This isn't a joke, I think with some digital splicing of Father Ted Footage, one could put together a 30 minute TV program, hosted by Ted and Dougal, explaining what lisbon means for the rest of us. Like they did with Bob Monkhouse and the prostate cancer campaign. I think it would go something like this:

Ted: So Dougal, How are you going to vote in the upcoming election?
Dougal: Ah Ted, I don't know whats going on with that!
Ted: For once Dougal, you know as much as the average Joe.
Dougal: Who's Joe?
Ted: Thats an expression Dougal. I mean, you know the same as most other people.
Dougal:Oh right. So any way what is it all about Ted?
Ted: Well Dougal, Its quite an interesting story. It all started with...

If someone can give me what it did all start with I would be delighted. And if someone else could give me the middle and even a peak at the ending, that would be great. Fellow boardsies, do this for me and I will write up the bones for a 15 minute discussion by the two boys, and may even do the splicing myself., and send it to the referendum commision.

Again, while I encourage this thread to be humorous, I would rather it was funny and related to the topic. I can not think of a situation in relation to this thread where 'Yore' or even 'My' Ma, would be useful, so please try to keep the daft stuff to a minimal.

Pompey Magnus · 02-06-2008 12:25AM

Do you not understand yet? We aren't supposed to understand it. We are just supposed to vote yes because if we don't then terrible things will happen to us. We are Ireland after all, the eunuchs of Europe. We don't like to upset our betters.

humbert · 02-06-2008 12:29AM

The language is complicated not for the sake of being precise or due to some mysterious legal necessity but to allow allow the right degree of flexibility in it's interpretation...IMO.

<pet peeve>And I suspect that the fact lawyers seem to think using esoteric words demonstrates their intellect and sophistication is not entirely unconnected.<pet peeve/>

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 02-06-2008 01:50AM

Look, it all boils down to this... do you want to be at the heart of Europe?
WELL DO YOU??!
Europe has been good for Ireland in the past... therefore anything it does in the future MUST also be good... that's infallible logic right there.
I've read the campaign posters in great detail, I'm fully up to speed on this whole issue.

darkman2 · 02-06-2008 02:06AM

Enough of the bulls*t tbh. No one fully understands it so vote NO. No wonder they think we are the stupid Irish. Your stupid if you vote yes to something no one understands.

stink_fist · 02-06-2008 02:20AM

follow the dutch and french, vote no.

AARRRGH · 02-06-2008 02:33AM

Does anyone else think the Government want us to vote no? They've made a very lame attempt at pushing the yes vote. My conspiracy theory side has me thinking they're only making it look like they're for a yes vote, just to please their European overlords...

I can see "No" winning the vote.

Overheal · 02-06-2008 02:33AM

im with darkman on this. Dont vote yes on something you know nothing about, that the government has failed to educate you on. They just tell you vote yes, when they should be explaining to you what the vote will do.

bluedolphin · 02-06-2008 02:52AM

Surely it is a citizen's individual responsibility to find out the information for him/herself? Government (and the main opposition parties, in this case) is clearly going to push a particular side because it has its own political agenda - Government is not neutral.

Voting 'No' just because you don't know is equally as bad as voting 'Yes' just because Government says so. There is information out there - try here for starters.

I believe also that the Referendum Commission has sent out an information pamphlet to households.

It's not 'the Government's fault' for not knowing about the Treaty. It is your responsibility to become an informed citizen and vote accordingly, whether that be a yes or a no vote on 12 June. Voting no just because you haven't answered that responsibility is as useful as not voting at all or spoiling a vote, IMO.

localhothead · 02-06-2008 03:00AM

what country are you living in dolphin ??
do you think mike and mary knackbag are going to take it on themselves to go and find out the true lisbon treaty story ?

the government want this ( or have been told to deliver it by europe ) so its up to them to educate the people ( or not educate and scare , as is the case at the moment )

truthly, the government DO NOT WANT the people to understand it
BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOOD FOR US - therefore scare mongering will suffice
.

Bob the Builder · 02-06-2008 03:02AM

What if you agree with half of it and dissagree with the other half of the proposed system.... and with the current system, you agree with most of it, but there are bits you strongly dissagree about...

It's a lose lose situation... The only way to know what your at as a perfectly informed citizen is to read all that EU lingo... It requires intense knowledge of the english language and requires an absoloute perfect understanding of all the other EU votes/etc. that went on before it...

darkman2 · 02-06-2008 03:03AM

If we vote no we will get concessions - its worth it.

bluedolphin · 02-06-2008 03:12AM

localhothead wrote: »

what country are you living in dolphin ??
do you think mike and mary knackbag are going to take it on themselves to go and find out the true lisbon treaty story ?

the government want this ( or have been told to deliver it by europe ) so its up to them to educate the people ( or not educate and scare , as is the case at the moment )

truthly, the government DO NOT WANT the people to understand it
BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOOD FOR US - therefore scare mongering will suffice
.

It's not up to Government to assist people in understanding! It just wants you to vote the way it wants (or think it wants, if you want to argue that) you to. Government has an agenda: the agenda in this is for a 'Yes' vote. Therefore it'll tell you only the 'Yes' side.

nevf wrote: »

What if you agree with half of it and dissagree with the other half of the proposed system.... and with the current system, you agree with most of it, but there are bits you strongly dissagree about...

It's a lose lose situation... The only way to know what your at as a perfectly informed citizen is to read all that EU lingo... It requires intense knowledge of the english language and requires an absoloute perfect understanding of all the other EU votes/etc. that went on before it...

+1 This is where I'm at... Agree with some of the proposed changes but a bit wary of others. Is there a 'Maybe' option?

Anyway, if we don't pick the right answer the first time, we'll probably just be asked again and again and again until we eventually get it right

AARRRGH · 02-06-2008 03:20AM

I get voting cards sent to all my previous addresses. In other words, I have a couple of votes.

Anyone else have this issue?

Winters · 02-06-2008 03:24AM

stink_fist wrote: »

follow the dutch and french, vote no.

I would suggest you actually look into what you are talking about.

Which countries have ratified the Lisbon Treaty so far?
Hungary's parliament was first to endorse the treaty. Malta, Slovenia, Romania and France have also done so.

The Dutch and French both rejected the constitution in 2005 sighting changes that needed to be made before they would accept it. Those along with other changes were made.

Along with the other links I would advise people to actually read up on it, for example why not give the Beeb a read: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm

I would advise people against voting No just because they don't know anything about it or as a point of opposition against the government (All major political parties do support a Yes vote). I would also hate to see people vote Yes just because they are told to do so and don't understand the points for it. Just actually go out and read up on it before you vote.

Also, before No campaigns come in with their propaganda:

Ireland and the UK currently have an opt-out from European policies concerning asylum, visas and immigration. Under the new treaty they will have the right to opt in or out of any policies in the entire field of justice and home affairs.

The constitution attempted to replace all earlier EU treaties and start afresh, whereas the new treaty amends the Treaty on the European Union (Maastricht) and the Treaty Establishing the European Community (Rome).

It also drops all reference to the symbols of the EU - the flag, the anthem and the motto - though these will continue to exist.

We wont loose any "Irishness" irregardless of what the "No" campaign claim and the EU cannot force any laws upon us that go against our constitution (Abortion for example will not become suddenly forced upon us).

Go get educated on it.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm
> http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/

bluedolphin · 02-06-2008 03:29AM

Summer Glau wrote: »

I would advise people against voting No just because they don't know anything about it or as a point of opposition against the government (All major political parties do support a Yes vote). I would also hate to see people vote Yes just because they are told to do so and don't understand the points for it. Just actually go out and read up on it before you vote.

Go get educated on it.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm
> http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/

+1

darkman2 · 02-06-2008 05:11AM

Summer Glau wrote: »

I would suggest you actually look into what you are talking about.

The Dutch and French both rejected the constitution in 2005 sighting changes that needed to be made before they would accept it. Those along with other changes were made.

Along with the other links I would advise people to actually read up on it, for example why not give the Beeb a read: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm

Erm its tax most people are worried about. Some faceless judge in Europe could outlaw our low Corpo tax on the basis of 'distortion of competition' throughout Europe.

RATM · 02-06-2008 07:34AM

They've purposefully written this document in an attempt to fool the ppl. They leave it open to interpretation so in a few years time we can all get shafted by some unelected and unaccountable officials in Brussels, thats the whole idea here and then they can turn around and say 'Well you lot voted for it'.

Having unelected officials in the top jobs in the EU is not democracy, no matter which way you want to dress it up.
Voting no will show them the power lies with the people, voting yes rubber stamps the status quo.

The majority of European people are not being given the chance to even vote on this fundamental issue, I'll be voting no in sympathy for their stolen democratic rights.

Then they'll begin to wake up in Brussels and have no choice but to come back to the Irish with a better deal. Hold off on this and we'll get better concessions, they always have a plan B.

Sherifu · 02-06-2008 08:56AM

Good post there Summer Glau.

daheff · 02-06-2008 09:09AM

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/vote-no-to-giscards-lisbon-swindle-1393761.html

Ok...this article is 100% anti-lisbon. Its an interesting read even for the pro- Lisbon people.

jjbrien · 02-06-2008 10:05AM

im confused about this to be honest i am a member of FG but I dont know what the hell the whole thing is about everything i hear seems to contradict each other i have been told to vote yes becasue the Sine Fein want us to vote no could SF be right this is what FG are saying?

This Treaty will:

- Strenghten the EU's capacity to bring greater economic prosperity, which we have shared and will continue to share.

- Equip the EU to better deal with global warming, energy security and cross border crime, because we cannot do this on our own.

- Limit the size of the European Parliament and the European Commission so that we have less bureaucracy and more efficiency.

- Create a new EU Foreign Affairs Representative who will give us a stronger voice on the World stage, in the UN and dealing with developing countries needs. As China and other regions organise it is important we are not left behind.

- Make the Charter on Fundamental Rights legally binding on EU Institutions and Member States when implementing EU Law, thereby safeguarding the rights of Irish citizens.

- By extending the powers of our MEPs and strengthening the role of Dáil & Seanad Éireann, make Europe more accountable.

- Ensure that the EU exercises those responsibilities - but only those responsibilities - that can be carried out more effectively by commonly agreed policies than by Member States acting separately - the "subsidiarity principle"

but the independant artical makes a convicing no statement

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 02-06-2008 10:26AM

jjbrien wrote: »

but the independant artical makes a convicing no statement

if you are convinced by an Independent article that is so obviously biased then your parent's should seek back their tax dollars that were spent on your education.

/ jokin

RATM · 02-06-2008 10:51AM

Roundtower2 wrote: »

if you are convinced by an Independent article that is so obviously biased then your parent's should seek back their tax dollars that were spent on your education.

/ jokin

But it is an opinion article, his perceived bias is from his opinion just the same way there would be a bias in an article on the Yes side.

But you still can't deny that Valery Giscard d'Estaing said this in reference to the Treaty:-

Public opinion will be led -- without knowing it -- to adopt the policies we would never dare present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text but will be hidden or disguised in some ways."

That quote has been widely reported across European media.When coupled with the leaked intelligence regarding holding the referendum before Sarkozy takes the reins and the quotes about hiding "unhelpful" information regarding the Treaty you've got to admit theres something not quite right here, if high level politicians are talking in these tones I'd say its a fair bet that things are going on behind closed doors that the public should know about.

jjbrien · 02-06-2008 11:06AM

Iit may be best to vote no just like in the nice treaty the first time the goverment didnt explain it and when they did people voted yes i think

Tails142 · 02-06-2008 11:11AM

Its a complicated topic.

The treaty is impossible to read, as it's all ammendments, adding words to paragraphs in documents that we dont have. Hardly suitable for 'selling' to a consumer.

I think its true that what we have now is legislation that was formally rejected and now just reworded for us to accept. Whether that's a good or bad thing who knows, but it is a little bit deceptive.

My opinion on the vote used to be yes, now I've turned into a see-saw, switching from yes to no with each bit of propoganda I read.

MY feelings are that the EU works fine as present, we get directives from the EU, enforce them in our own way and everything works fine. Why do we need to change anything.

My biggest worry is that we wont have an EU commissioner for 5 out of every 15 years, does this mean that during this time we lose our veto?? If this is the case then obviously its a bad thing, as anything we would be against could be passed while we're not sitting on the commission.

AARRRGH · 02-06-2008 11:36AM

I quite like things the way they are now. Maybe voting yes will make things better, but it might make things worse. This is the main reason I'm edging towards a "no" vote at the moment.

SimpleSam06 · 02-06-2008 11:48AM

Tails142 wrote: »

The treaty is impossible to read, as it's all ammendments, adding words to paragraphs in documents that we dont have. Hardly suitable for 'selling' to a consumer.

You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother.

– Albert Einstein

I sincerely doubt that the people drawing up the legislation do not understand it, therefore there seems to be a healthy amount of deliberate muddying of the water going around. Similarly for our own politicans, which raises the pain in the back of the eyeball question, who the hell are they working for if not the people that elected them?

AARRRGH · 02-06-2008 12:01PM

I'm watching this at the moment -

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=173

Haven't finished it, but maybe it'll be interesting for some of you.

02-06-2008 12:09PM

I'm going to vote no. Only because some of their posters have monkeys on them.

ScumLord · 02-06-2008 12:14PM

Voting yes will not only solve all the problems in the heath care system, there will be enough funding left over to supply every hospital waiting room with tea and biscuits.

We'll finally be rid of that pesky commissioner too.

monkeyfudge · 02-06-2008 12:17PM

Summer Glau wrote: »

We wont loose any "Irishness" irregardless of what the "No" campaign claim and the EU cannot force any laws upon us that go against our constitution (Abortion for example will not become suddenly forced upon us).

Irregardless, ehh?

Vote for Europe..ahem..Lisbon.

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