Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

dodgyme · 20-05-2008 10:49AM

Lets get a few thing straight. Romanians are not roma. If you hate roma dont confuse them with romanians. My opinion of romanians is generally positive. I worked there back in the day pre2000 and again on and off in the years in between and saw a massive shift in mentality as the country developed beyond ceauceseau. I think people need reminding of the fact that this was the toughest of all the communist regimes. Also people need to know the country is quite large and the closer to bucharest you got the more affected by the regime people were (I was told this alot when I was there). I also worked in Transilvania and found differences in attitude due to the distance from the capital. People come to Ireland and compare kerry and dublin so I guess I was doing the same. People form opinions and perhaps generalise.

One thing I noticed was when I was first there,how hated the roma were and the place was full of them (to coin a phase:o!) however when I was last (2006)there the numbers had fallen so much you didnt seem to see as many of them on the streets etc. It did strike me that Dublin at that stage was having an alarming increase in roma (which now seems possibly to have tapered off slightly) so I guessed while they were leaving bucharest and other places they were moving to Dublin and other places.

Now to those in the debate that claim you cant generalise well good luck to you since that is the only way to make sense of the world. You cannot go and meet ever single Roma so you have to generealise, and by generalising you will form an opinion like I did. The human brain is conditioned to generalise and learn from its mistakes. I generally like romanians perhaps because I know the country well and have friends there, I generally see roma as a nuisance moving around looking for the next scam. I dont think i need to live in a gyspy camp for a year to prove my point. Perhaps the person who says you have to meet every one of them to judge them etc should do this.

Slow Motion · 20-05-2008 10:50AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You see that’s exactly the point. People who work 9-5 to feed their kids don’t make the papers or the news.

If Romas are working 9-5 to feed their kids then why aren't they posting on boards like the rest of us hard working members of society?

Blackpitts · 20-05-2008 10:50AM

I think i can give you a better point of view of the real situation as I'm from Naples.
The sparkle that caused all these riots was an attempt of kidnapping a 6month yo baby by one gipsy girl. Fortunately she got caught by the parents of the baby just before she left the house. It's not the first time that gipsies are stealing babies and put them on the streets in order to get more money when they beg for it. it's an absolute shame!
Anyway the people setting fire to gipsies' caravans or throwing molotov at them are (in most cases) belonging to the local mafia (called Camorra) which has the complete dominion on the territory and doesn't want gipsies as they are out of their control.
I wish the italian police was so "effective" also with the mafia guys, but this is not going to happen. (I suggest to read "Gomorrah" to have an insight view of what i'm talking about, it's a bestseller in many countries now)
I'm not against the Roma, I just want all the criminal people outside from my country, i don't care if they come from romania or wherever else in the world. In Italy at the moment 38% of people in prison are foreigners, it's a shocking percentage.

Dudess · 20-05-2008 10:53AM

Would I be correct in assuming Berlusconi's government is pretty scary?

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 10:55AM

dodgyme wrote: »

Now to those in the debate that claim you cant generalise well good luck to you since that is the only way to make sense of the world. You cannot go and meet ever single Roma so you have to generealise, and by generalising you will form an opinion like I did. The human brain is conditioned to generalise and learn from its mistakes.

yes it is. that's why racism is so common. i tend to hate roma too. that's why i have to remind myself that the human tendency to generalise is wrong when it comes to judging groups of people

dodgyme wrote: »

Perhaps the person who says you have to meet every one of them to judge them etc should do this.

well i'm not the one making a sweeping generalisation about them so i don't think i should. the burden of proof is on the people who are saying that the majority of them are a certain way

FruitLover · 20-05-2008 10:56AM

I don't think it's fair to say 100% of Roma gypsies are human trash.

However, 100% of the Roma gypsies that I've had the misfortune to deal with are human trash.

Maximilian · 20-05-2008 10:56AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You see that’s exactly the point. People who work 9-5 to feed their kids don’t make the papers or the news.

And those people have precisely what to do with anything concerning this topic? Is anyone suggesting that such people (I assume you mean Roma) be deported? I only ask because I know I'm not.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You only have an assumption that it’s an accurate one. You can say that it’s the majority and not all of them are like that etc but the effect is the same as if you said it was 100%.unless you have named exceptions you are tarring them all with the same brush.

You are a hypocrite. You seemingly have only the reverse assumption, with even less evidence and more sanctimony.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why pick on romas? Why even mention romas if all you have a problem with is thieves?

Its an argument that applies to all such foreign nationals. As regards Romas though, they are a readily identifiable group of people, the overwhelming majority of which are nothing but a problem. Why shouldn't they be singled out & singled out as a group for that matter.

What reason do you have for suggesting that these people - the ones who quite obviously do nothing for society, beg, cause a disproportionate amount of crime and steal the round, grassy parts of our transportation system - should stay? I'd love to hear it.

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 10:57AM

Slow Motion wrote: »

If Romas are working 9-5 to feed their kids then why aren't they posting on boards like the rest of us hard working members of society?

you've hit the nail on the head there. the romas that do work are so incredibly diligent they don't takes any boards breaks :eek:

togster · 20-05-2008 10:59AM

Dudess wrote: »

I must admit I don't fully understand the above remark. However I'm gonna assume it's a dig at those who object to the anti social practices endemic within considerable pockets of Roma immigrant society. If so, what utter crap. And quite insulting actually. Again, this is a perfect example of mindless bigotry coming from the left - and I'm left-wing and regularly accused of being "PC" etc. Read the posts properly.

Well in fairness, there has been alot of "crap" thrown at the "bleeding hearts" here too.

Susannahmia · 20-05-2008 11:00AM

DesF wrote: »

They aren't a different race.

Race is a social construstion, it does not exist only for the meanings we give it.

marco murphy · 20-05-2008 11:02AM

For once I'm not afraid to generalise. Shower of hurs.

Susannahmia · 20-05-2008 11:03AM

daisy123 wrote: »

Are they Roma or Romanians?

They are roma, completly seperate from romanians, my cousin was adopted from romania and you wouldnt believe the amount of discrimination he has experienced since the Romas came and were wrongly associated by the Irish with Romanians in general. I really wish people would stop calling them Romanians!:mad:

justsomebloke · 20-05-2008 11:03AM

as I thought SEPT 23 1989's quotes where actually quite appropriate but have all been deleted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtfH2D8j9g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmJQY6hO10

Doctor DooM · 20-05-2008 11:05AM

Maximilian wrote: »

And those people have precisely what to do with anything concerning this topic? Is anyone suggesting that such people (I assume you mean Roma) be deported? I only ask because I know I'm not.

Its an argument that applies to all such foreign nationals. As regards Romas though, they are a readily identifiable group of people, the overwhelming majority of which are nothing but a problem. Why shouldn't they be singled out & singled out as a group for that matter.

What reason do you have for suggesting that these people - the ones who quite obviously do nothing for society, beg, cause a disproportionate amount of crime and steal the round, grassy parts of our transportation system - should stay? I'd love to hear it.

I think you're a little confused.

Sam is saying good Roma do exist, just by definition you don't hear about them. This is in response to the "all Roma" generalisations floating around here.

He's already said that the dodgy ones should go- but it should be treated on a one to one basis, not by ethnic group.

togster · 20-05-2008 11:08AM

SDooM wrote: »

He's already said that the dodgy ones should go- but it should be treated on a one to one basis, not by ethnic group.

So far the most sensible thing said on this thread.

Dennis the Stone · 20-05-2008 11:08AM

Could everyone stop using the term 'bleeding heart'? I suffer from this rare medical condition and spend most of my life in extreme agony.

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 11:09AM

Maximilian wrote: »

And those people have precisely what to do with anything concerning this topic? Is anyone suggesting that such people (I assume you mean Roma) be deported? I only ask because I know I'm not.

If you are suggesting that foreign national criminals be deported, why mention roma at all? Why not just talk about foreign national criminals? Why is it necessary to mention one specific group of people, tarring them all with the criminal brush with no evidence

Maximilian wrote: »

You are a hypocrite. You seemingly have only the reverse assumption, with even less evidence and more sanctimony.

I’m not suggesting the opposite. That would imply that I believe that roma are less likely to commit crimes than other nationalities. I don’t believe that. I don’t have any evidence either way. I just believe it’s wrong to say that one particular group of people are criminals because that unfairly judges good people

Maximilian wrote: »

Its an argument that applies to all such foreign nationals. As regards Romas though, they are a readily identifiable group of people, the overwhelming majority of which are nothing but a problem. Why shouldn't they be singled out & singled out as a group for that matter.

Because that’s discrimination. Criminals should be judged individually and their nationality should not be an issue

Maximilian wrote: »

What reason do you have for suggesting that these people - the ones who quite obviously do nothing for society, beg, cause a disproportionate amount of crime and steal the round, grassy parts of our transportation system - should stay? I'd love to hear it.

If you had read my posts you would have seen that I said over and over that foreign national criminals should be deported. I hate criminals but to judge an entire group of people to be criminals is wrong

There should be a policy to deal with foreign criminals, not a policy to deal with romas or even roma criminals. If you’re right in saying that most romas are criminals, then the problem can be solved by a non-racist law

dodgyme · 20-05-2008 11:11AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the human tendency to generalise is wrong when it comes to judging groups of people

Look mate, everybody knows what you mean, your not some genius or god like figure for second guessing a sweeping generalisation you might make. But somethings are as obvious as the nose on your face and denying that is plain stupid. By definition a 'group' are defined by certain customs/characteristics/genetics etc, which makes it a group whether its the pioneers or the roma. Sweeping generalisations are different to informed generalisation i.e. making sense of the world around you. One is based on experience and knowledge, the other on ignorance. If I decided today not to generalise on anything I would be fairly Fecked ...no?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

well i'm not the one making a sweeping generalisation about them so i don't think i should.

you are making sweeping generalisations that all the people who disagree with you , are somehow stupid.

WooPeeA · 20-05-2008 11:13AM

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

The roma gypsies have no work ethic, they simply don't. want. to. work.
I know this is a generalisation, but I've never seen a roma gypsy working at anything. I've seen them selling fake gold rings on the street, begging at ATMs, robbing bikes from a house, robbing plants from inside a window, begging al lover the place, pretending they were blind and deaf, using their children as begging aids, and more.

No, it's not generalization. They are not working. And they don't want to work no matter are they from Romania, Germany or Asia. In their culture working or integrating with others is humiliation in their eyes.

Phaetonman · 20-05-2008 11:15AM

Tago Mago wrote: »

Could everyone stop using the term 'bleeding heart'? I suffer from this rare medical condition and spend most of my life in extreme agony.

A genuinely funny post on boards. I love it.

People are bring out the race card here but we're not talking about a different race but a different species.

If a human tried to breed with a gypsy the resulting the result would be a sterile creature not unlike a mule.

Degsy · 20-05-2008 11:17AM

Slow Motion wrote: »

If Romas are working 9-5 to feed their kids then why aren't they posting on boards like the rest of us hard working members of society?

Because the fact is that they're not working.Roma by their very nature,culture,upbringing DONT work.How could a roma kid,given its upbringing decide to enter the education system or jobs market?It's be like a story from dickens.

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 11:20AM

dodgyme wrote: »

Look mate, everybody knows what you mean, your not some genius or god like figure for second guessing a sweeping generalisation you might make. But somethings are as obvious as the nose on your face and denying that is plain stupid. By definition a 'group' are defined by certain customs/characteristics/genetics etc, which makes it a group whether its the pioneers or the roma. Sweeping generalisations are different to informed generalisation i.e. making sense of the world around you. One is based on experience and knowledge, the other on ignorance. If I decided today not to generalise on anything I would be fairly Fecked ...no?

there are generalisations that work. for example, if i get hit by a car, i will most likely die. it doesn't matter if it's a ford or a honda or a toyata. a generalisation can be made there.

but when dealing with people, generalisations are always unfair. there are always exceptions to the generalisation that get treated badly anyway. id did it myself a few times. i was working in a phone shop and people who looked like roma gypsies came in and i made the assumption that they were trying to scam me out of a cheap phone on a contract and was wary of them. often i turned out to be right. but often i turned out to be wrong.

dodgyme wrote: »

you are making sweeping generalisations that all the people who disagree with you , are somehow stupid.

firstly, i'm not saying anything about the intelligence or lack thereof of the people who disagree with me.

secondly, there is a difference between saying "the majority of romas are criminals" and "the people who disagree with me are wrong". if people say that they disagree with me, then i can say they are wrong without generalising. i may be right and i may be wrong. but i am not generalising

however, if i made the assumption that your whole family disagreed with me because you do and said they're also wrong, that would be generalising

lost marbles · 20-05-2008 11:21AM

just a quick question
does anyone here on boards work with or employ a roma gypsie ???

Doctor DooM · 20-05-2008 11:23AM

Tago Mago wrote: »

Could everyone stop using the term 'bleeding heart'? I suffer from this rare medical condition and spend most of my life in extreme agony.

Now THAT is funny.

dodgyme wrote: »

Look mate, everybody knows what you mean, your not some genius or god like figure for second guessing a sweeping generalisation you might make. But somethings are as obvious as the nose on your face and denying that is plain stupid. By definition a 'group' are defined by certain customs/characteristics/genetics etc, which makes it a group whether its the pioneers or the roma. Sweeping generalisations are different to informed generalisation i.e. making sense of the world around you. One is based on experience and knowledge, the other on ignorance. If I decided today not to generalise on anything I would be fairly Fecked ...no?

you are making sweeping generalisations that all the people who disagree with you , are somehow stupid.

No you wouldn't be fecked, you would be abiding by the laws of our society. And TBH, if anything is making you look stupid, it is not Sams debating skills.

Degsy wrote: »

Because the fact is that they're not working.Roma by their very nature,culture,upbringing DONT work.How could a roma kid,given its upbringing decide to enter the education system or jobs market?It's be like a story from dickens.

Ok, well heres the point- it doesn't matter where they come from- once again- the dodgy ones should go- but it should be treated on a one to one basis, not by ethnic group.

There, we're all happy.

Degsy · 20-05-2008 11:23AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

there are generalisations that work. for example, if i get hit by a car, i will most likely die. it doesn't matter if it's a ford or a honda or a toyata. a generalisation can be made there.

but when dealing with people, generalisations are always unfair. there are always exceptions to the generalisation that get treated badly anyway. id di it myself a few times. i was working in a phone shop and people who looked like roma gypsies came in and i made the assumption that they were trying to scam me out of a cheap phone on a contract and was wary of them. often i turned out to be right. but often i turned out to be wrong.

firstly, i'm not saying anything about the intelligence or lack thereof of the people who disagree with me.

secondly, there is a difference between saying "the majority of romas are criminals" and "the people who disagree with me are wrong". if people say that they disagree with me, then i can say they are wrong without generalising. i may be right and i may be wrong. but i am not generalising

however, if i made the assumption that your whole family disagreed with me and said they're also wrong, that would be generalising

So people generalise?Big deal get over it.Its up to the mythical minority of good,decent romas to prove the generalisers wrong and not the other way round.

Degsy · 20-05-2008 11:25AM

SDooM wrote: »

Ok, well heres the point- it doesn't matter where they come from- again-When it comes to criminal activity ethnicity should not come into it, it should be dealt on a 1 to 1 basis.

I agree.I also beleive that in the case of foreign criminals,they should be fecked out of the country as soon as they've been convicted.

Dudess · 20-05-2008 11:25AM

Phaetonman wrote: »

People are bring out the race card here but we're not talking about a different race but a different species.

If a human tried to breed with a gypsy the resulting the result would be a sterile creature not unlike a mule.

Banned.

Bendihorse · 20-05-2008 11:25AM

''The problem with racism in this country is the foreigners''

Sam Vimes · 20-05-2008 11:26AM

Degsy wrote: »

So people generalise?Big deal get over it.Its up to the mythical minority of good,decent romas to prove the generalisers wrong and not the other way round.

No, it’s really really not. That’s why we have anti-racism laws in civilised societies. What you’re talking about is a case of guilty until proven innocent

if your dad was a criminal, would you be ok with going to jail because you couldn't prove you WEREN'T involved in his criminal activities?

lost marbles · 20-05-2008 11:28AM

i can hear the key turning in that lock as i type

Italy tackles Roma Gypsies.

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