Why doesn't God just kill Satan

MooseJam · 13-05-2008 11:46AM #1

It would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it ?

Zombrex · 13-05-2008 12:18PM

MooseJam wrote: »

It would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it ?

Can you kill an angel? Are they not immortal?

Pompey Magnus · 13-05-2008 12:26PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Can you kill an angel? Are they not immortal?

He made them, presumably he can unmake them. He is God after all.

I would like to know why he didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start again from scratch, learning from his mistakes by next time NOT creating a talking evil snake and maybe hiding the Tree of Knowledge deep inside a cave on a small planet orbiting Alpha Centauri. It would have saved an awful lot of suffering.

all the stars · 13-05-2008 01:02PM

ah sure, then who'd run "hell" or be blamed for all the badness in the world? Then , people might be considered responsible for their actions :eek: - heavens forbid and all

gordon_gekko · 13-05-2008 01:11PM

a better question might be , why doesnt god prevent natural disasters

besides , surely god needs satan , hes been a very successful spook story with which to recruit believers

AtomicHorror · 13-05-2008 02:13PM

I guess if you're going to grant your creations with free-will, you also want to present them with alternatives so that there are actual choices for them to make using said will.

Zombrex · 13-05-2008 02:36PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I guess if you're going to grant your creations with free-will, you also want to present them with alternatives so that there are actual choices for them to make using said will.

Why though?

It is easy to imagine a universe where the result of actions cannot harm, why create a universe where the results of actions can harm and then set out a bunch of laws to out law these actions? What purpose does that serve?

(I think this is turning into a collection of "Why does/did God.." issues. If the Christians can take these questions seriously without simply dismissing them as the result of the wondering imaginations of wicked faithless sinners, they might even convert some people!

)

AtomicHorror · 13-05-2008 02:43PM

Wicknight wrote: »

It is easy to imagine a universe where the result of actions cannot harm, why create a universe where the results of actions can harm and then set out a bunch of laws to out law these actions? What purpose does that serve?

My answer to that would probably not go down too well with many Christians. I'll just say that there doesn't appear to be an objective purpose and leave it at that.

estebancambias · 13-05-2008 02:47PM

LOL, at all the posts so far on the Christian 'Board'..

Zombrex · 13-05-2008 03:01PM

estebancambias wrote: »

LOL, at all the posts so far on the Christian 'Board'..

The Christian forum is a forum for discussing Christianity, not a forum for Christians.

Christianity Charter wrote:

The purpose of this board is to discuss Christian belief in general, and specific elements of it, between Christians and non-Christians alike. It has the additional purpose of being a point on boards.ie where Christians may ask other Christians questions about their shared faith.

You can post in the atheist forum without having to be an atheist, you can post in the Linux forum without having to be a Linux user, you can post in the Lost forum without having to be lost :pac:

There is a system for Christians who wish to start Christian only threads to do so. Ironically, for all the complaining about the invasion of non-Christians that goes on here, these Christian only threads are more often than not completely ignored by the regular Christian posters here.

Dave! · 13-05-2008 04:13PM

God works in mysterious ways OP. You just don't understand him. Have a pray and everything will soon become clear.

kelly1 · 14-05-2008 09:28AM

MooseJam wrote: »

It would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it ?

No, God needs to sort out the good eggs from the bad eggs. Satan is really only God's tool. Satan can only do what God allows him to do and God can allow Satan to tempt us.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I would like to know why he didn't just kill Adam and Eve and start again from scratch, learning from his mistakes by next time NOT creating a talking evil snake and maybe hiding the Tree of Knowledge deep inside a cave on a small planet orbiting Alpha Centauri. It would have saved an awful lot of suffering.

God doesn't make mistakes. He knows exactly what He's doing.

Dave! · 14-05-2008 10:58AM

Isn't it kind of immoral for god to use satan to 'sort out the good eggs from the bad eggs'? What I mean by that is that those who succumb to Satan's temptation are obviously of weaker mind than those who do not. So is it fair to punish people for being weak? Smells awfully like Social Darwinism to me.

Pompey Magnus · 14-05-2008 11:16AM

kelly1 wrote: »

God doesn't make mistakes. He knows exactly what He's doing.

“The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.” (Gen 6:6)

Sounds to me like God recognised he made a mistake.

MrPudding · 14-05-2008 11:34AM

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

“The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.” (Gen 6:6)

Sounds to me like God recognised he made a mistake.

Duh. That bit is not supposed to be literally. That is a metaphor thingie. Seriously, how could God make a mistake?

MrP

Phaetonman · 14-05-2008 11:38AM

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

“The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.” (Gen 6:6)

Sounds to me like God recognised he made a mistake.

So according to the bible, God considers us a mistake. Fúck that prick thats a really hurtful thing to say.

AtomicHorror · 14-05-2008 11:41AM

kelly1 wrote: »

No, God needs to sort out the good eggs from the bad eggs. Satan is really only God's tool. Satan can only do what God allows him to do and God can allow Satan to tempt us.

Being all-knowing, God shouldn't really need such a tool. Unless our free will blinds God to which courses of action we will take. That would have huge implications as it would mean that the sum of the interactions of the 6.5 billion currently existing free willed humans would have to be unpredictable to God.

kelly1 wrote: »

God doesn't make mistakes. He knows exactly what He's doing.

But not, it seems, what we are going to do.

AtomicHorror · 14-05-2008 11:44AM

Phaetonman wrote: »

So according to the bible, God considers us a mistake. Fúck that prick thats a really hurtful thing to say.

I'm an agnostic but I kinda think we're guests of the Christians here. Try not to shake your fist at the local deity. It'll insult and hurt people, even if it's a joke.

Asiaprod · 14-05-2008 11:54AM

Phaetonman wrote: »

So according to the bible, God considers us a mistake. Fúck that prick thats a really hurtful thing to say.

You are new here, cool it down please.
Asia

Akrasia · 14-05-2008 11:58AM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I'm an agnostic but I kinda think we're guests of the Christians here. Try not to shake your fist at the local deity. It'll insult and hurt people, even if it's a joke.

I hope that doesn't translate as 'we should respect for their beliefs'?

This is a discussion forum. We should show respect for the people who contribute and avoid personal abuse of any kind, but we are perfectly entitled to criticize aspects of Christianity that we don't think make any sense as long as we can back up our claims and don't engage in trolling.

If a christian wants to post in the atheist forum claiming that we're all doomed to eternal damnation (and they do) then they're entitled to do so (again, following the same rules of respect for the poster and no blatant trolling)

all the stars · 14-05-2008 11:59AM

MrPudding wrote: »

Duh. That bit is not supposed to be literally. That is a metaphor thingie. Seriously, how could God make a mistake?

MrP

how the feic do you know that?? darn it , we ate the forbidden fruit and went against our all powerful god! Why wouldn't he be heartbroken that he created such a sh*tty entity as us?

Akrasia · 14-05-2008 12:12PM

all the stars wrote: »

how the feic do you know that?? darn it , we ate the forbidden fruit and went against our all powerful god! Why wouldn't he be heartbroken that he created such a sh*tty entity as us?

What? First of all, Adam and Eve didn't really exist, its just a story, the world is not 6000 years old)

Secondly, The only reason eve ate the apple (in the story) is because a talking snake told them to and in their innocence, they believed him. (the garden was supposed to have been a perfect existence and they would never have experienced deception before) they were naive and too trusting.

Thirdly, God never warned them that some day a snake might try to tempt them to eat the apple.

fourthly, God stood back and watched eve be tempted by the snake. He could easily have stepped in and warned her not to when it was clear that she was being manipulated. The story is told as though God was busy somewhere else and only found out about it later, but God is supposed to be omniscient and it is ludicrous to suggest that he didn't know what was happening.

finally, God decides to punish everyone for all eternity for one tiny minor little sin, but christians claim that asking for forgiveness is enough to forgive any sin. I'm pretty sure that Adam (in the story) would have been very sorry for what he did and would have begged god for forgiveness after being thrown out of paradise, but God refused to forgive him.

If I had a teenage child and I told him to stay out of the drinks cabinet, that it was forbidden, and then he goes behind my back and sneaks a few beers out of it and experiments with alcohol. When I find out I am angry and disappointed with what he did, but I wouldn't throw him out of the house forever and never speak to him again. (if I did, I'd be the worst father ever, yet i'd only be following the example of the 'perfect being' in a story that is taught to all Christians as some kind of lesson in morality)

Pompey Magnus · 14-05-2008 12:18PM

MrPudding wrote: »

Duh. That bit is not supposed to be literally. That is a metaphor thingie. Seriously, how could God make a mistake?

It is a pity the Bible doesn't specify which bits are metaphor and which are serious. Perhaps there could be an asterix after every metaphor and misleading statement in the Bible or maybe different font? Does God accept suggestions for areas he could improve his religion?

God has made mistakes. If he made humanity then he created an imperfect product, if this was not a mistake then he punishes humans for a design flaw he intentionally placed in us.

To say God makes mistakes is being kind on him, it is just saying he is occasionally incompetent. To say he never makes mistakes is in effect calling him a sadist.

po0k · 14-05-2008 12:21PM

Debating the logic of a faerytale.

Inspired.

all the stars · 14-05-2008 12:29PM

Akrasia wrote: »

What? First of all, Adam and Eve didn't really exist, its just a story, the world is not 6000 years old)

Actually by jewish calender it is over 6000 yearts old - need to mention at this point Jesus himself was Jewish so yes infact, its dare i say quite possible that your info there is wrong - sorry.:o

Akrasia wrote: »

Secondly, The only reason eve ate the apple (in the story) is because a talking snake told them to and in their innocence, they believed him. (the garden was supposed to have been a perfect existence and they would never have experienced deception before) they were naive and too trusting.

So shame on god allowing an evil entity be created in his perfect garden.. and shame on people for believing a talking snake...

Akrasia wrote: »

Thirdly, God never warned them that some day a snake might try to tempt them to eat the apple.

Then he ill - equipped his beings for the world he created for us, small oversight on his part and here we are sufering for a mistake which we did'nt cause!

Akrasia wrote: »

fourthly, God stood back and watched eve be tempted by the snake. He could easily have stepped in and warned her not to when it was clear that she was being manipulated. The story is told as though God was busy somewhere else and only found out about it later, but God is supposed to be omniscient and it is ludicrous to suggest that he didn't know what was happening.

So, i clearly remember from it being drummed into us that God is an all seeing all knowing entity and therefore knew what was going on and made no effort to kill the snake or maintain the purity or innocence of his creation.

Akrasia wrote: »

finally, God decides to punish everyone for all eternity for one tiny minor little sin, but christians claim that asking for forgiveness is enough to forgive any sin. I'm pretty sure that Adam (in the story) would have been very sorry for what he did and would have begged god for forgiveness after being thrown out of paradise, but God refused to forgive him.

this seems to be the case - not very nice eh?

Akrasia wrote: »

If I had a teenage child and I told him to stay out of the drinks cabinet, that it was forbidden, and then he goes behind my back and sneaks a few beers out of it and experiments with alcohol. When I find out I am angry and disappointed with what he did, but I wouldn't throw him out of the house forever and never speak to him again. (if I did, I'd be the worst father ever, yet i'd only be following the example of the 'perfect being' in a story that is taught to all Christians as some kind of lesson in morality)

yes, perfectly normal human response - imperfect forgiving things we are eh?

all the stars · 14-05-2008 12:30PM

po0k wrote: »

Debating the logic of a faerytale.

Inspired.

indeed

and its getting interesting too!

AtomicHorror · 14-05-2008 12:34PM

Akrasia wrote: »

I hope that doesn't translate as 'we should respect for their beliefs'?

This is a discussion forum. We should show respect for the people who contribute and avoid personal abuse of any kind, but we are perfectly entitled to criticize aspects of Christianity that we don't think make any sense as long as we can back up our claims and don't engage in trolling.

If a christian wants to post in the atheist forum claiming that we're all doomed to eternal damnation (and they do) then they're entitled to do so (again, following the same rules of respect for the poster and no blatant trolling)

I'm not for a moment suggesting that we shouldn't debate the fundamentals and I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.

What I am saying is that it is quite possible to have respect for someone's beliefs without agreeing with them. It's the difference between "I don't believe in your God" and "F**k your God, he's a lie". Nobody benefits from such irrational and emotive attacks.

Zombrex · 14-05-2008 01:16PM

kelly1 wrote: »

No, God needs to sort out the good eggs from the bad eggs. Satan is really only God's tool. Satan can only do what God allows him to do and God can allow Satan to tempt us.

What you are describing is known in legal circles as entrapment, which is generally frowned upon.

It works like this. An under cover cop may arrest someone carrying out a crime if the crime is being committed in a manner that would be reasonable to conclude would take place even if the cop wasn't there. A cop can buy coke from a drug dealer, because a drug dealer deals coke and would do so even if the cop wasn't there.

On the other hand a cop cannot initiate a crime where the person involved would not have carried out the crime without the initiation of the under cover cop. A cop can't go around hassling random punters to by coke off him and then arresting them when they give in.

What does this have to do with God and Satan?

You say Satan exists so God can weed out the good from the bad.

This implies logically that without Satan we would all be good or at least gooder than we are with Satan, otherwise what purpose does Satan serve?

Akrasia · 14-05-2008 02:14PM

So shame on god allowing an evil entity be created in his perfect garden.. and shame on people for believing a talking snake...

Why should there be shame on people for believing a talking snake, there was no negative cultural association attached to snakes in the garden of eden because back then everything lived in harmony and peace and there was no suffering or death. They had no reason not to trust him. Did God warn them that there were evil forces out there They thought God Loved them and wanted to protect them. Creating an evil manipulative talking snake would contradict that belief.
Anyway, God wanted Adam and eve to be innocent and to never experience or understand evil (thats why the tree of knowledge was forbidden) so if they didn't know the difference between right and wrong, then how could they have known disobeying God was wrong?

The story of Adam and Eve is the story of a petty vengeful fallible egomaniac father who decided to punish his children in the most severe way possible for something that was really his own fault entirely.

all the stars · 14-05-2008 02:27PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Why should there be shame on people for believing a talking snake, there was no negative cultural association attached to snakes in the garden of eden because back then everything lived in harmony and peace and there was no suffering or death. They had no reason not to trust him. Did God warn them that there were evil forces out there They thought God Loved them and wanted to protect them. Creating an evil manipulative talking snake would contradict that belief.
Anyway, God wanted Adam and eve to be innocent and to never experience or understand evil (thats why the tree of knowledge was forbidden) so if they didn't know the difference between right and wrong, then how could they have known disobeying God was wrong?

The story of Adam and Eve is the story of a petty vengeful fallible egomaniac father who decided to punish his children in the most severe way possible for something that was really his own fault entirely.

So my whole thing is:
God created everything in the world that ever was and is.
therefore, god created evil. Why?

God wanted people to never understand the evil he had created.
he wanted people to be stupid.?

once again as a non member of the club - this just sounds so odd.. interesting... but odd

PDN · 14-05-2008 06:55PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I'm not for a moment suggesting that we shouldn't debate the fundamentals and I'm not sure how you got that from what I said.

What I am saying is that it is quite possible to have respect for someone's beliefs without agreeing with them. It's the difference between "I don't believe in your God" and "F**k your God, he's a lie". Nobody benefits from such irrational and emotive attacks.

Swearing is also contrary to the charter and will earn an infraction.

Why doesn't God just kill Satan

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