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hardy heron
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stereo_steve wrote: »You know for a while there , i considered not replying to your post. Not because of what you said, just the sheer length of it!
Good point. You probably won't like the length of this one then!
I can't think if a reason why you would need to read off the CD.
Because your net access isn't working?What can they do here though? Change Ubuntu from a CD to a DVD that includes loads of windows drivers and have a script to use them with ndiswrapper? Could be an option although they probably would need permission from the writers of the proprietary drivers and its messy.
I'm not proposing that they include every driver on the install disk. My point here was that they made a decision whereby NDISwrapper (one of the most useful and necessary tools in linux) isn't part of the default install, but PalmOS device support is. What kind of lunatic logic is that? Who thinks to themselves "Hey, we've got 300 million users who need NDISwrapper, vs 500 that need Palm sync support. Let's leave Palm support in and bugger the wifi drivers"??
Answer: Someone who shouldn't be designing an OS.It doesn't let you access your harddrives? I don't understand. Do you mean the system files? Once again your not the administrator. Log in a the administrator if it bothers you.
The problem we're talking about is mounting hard drives after a clean install. The mouse issue is from kubuntu and I didn't have it with Laurel (on the other hand kubuntu had a full logitech driver). While not defaulting to administrator access is admirable, asking me for a password to access my own drives is something that the designers and I profoundly disagree on.Alot of the stuff you have complained about I have no issue with and disagree on many things you see as troublesome.
Maybe we're approaching this from different angles. You're quite right that none of this issues is "big". I don't expect the devs to come round to my house and fix everything for me, and it's not that I'm not prepared to fiddle.
I am choosing to look at this not from the perspective of "look how far they've come" or "how can I contribute?", and there's a simple reason for that - Canonical is making a big noise about how Ubuntu is up to the standard of being a replacement for windows - not just an "advanced Linux distro". It's touted not only as a viable alternative, but as a potential sale to mass corporate users and volume licenses. From that perspective, I am looking at it as follows: Are they right, or are they full of shi.t? After my kubuntu install, I came to the conclusion that their idea of "stable release" and mine were very different. The blurb about Laurel'n'Hardy is that is an LTS "very stable" release. Having viewed it, one thing is clear - clearer than it was with the last version:
They are nowhere near being able to design a windows replacement.
Not because the driver support's not there, not because they need more members of the community to muck in, and not because they need more co-operation with closed software and hardware vendors.
It's because some of the decisions they've made in the architecture, and the design choices they've made in the way the OS is structured, are beyond poor. They're not amateur, either. It's as if they've looked at the OS's shortcomings, held a very simple solution in their hands, and stuck their heads right in the sand with their fingers in their ears singing LAA LAA LAA. Windows devs have done this as well. But the difference is that the windows devs don't have to persuade people to switch (unless they're one of the unfortunates trying to flog retail copies of Vista). The three examples I highlighted at the end of my last post are all pretty small issues. Nothing life threatening. What's worrying about them is not that they're there, it's that Canonical don't see them as a problem. They should, because those decisions are telling the outside world a lot about how and why architecture decisions are being made, more than Canonical seem to realise. They're telling the world "Hey, we've slapped in a lot of stuff here, some of it's pretty cool, check it out", then when the "Ehh.. but it doesn't work" problem rears its ugly head, the logic is "Meh, whaddya gonna do, it'll be fixed a few months down the line, fuggedaboudit."
I'll go back to my favourite example to highlight how that thinking is exposed; Firefox Beta. Here's what it tells us:- They had a release schedule set.
- One of their most important release apps wasn't going to be ready on time.
- Rather than delay the release, they slapped in the Beta version and told everybody they'd upgrade the release in a month.
Here's what it actually tells us: "If it's not ready, or it's not working right, we'll whack it in anyway and maybe we'll fix it later. Fu.ck it, it's your problem now, you don't like it make your own, why should we delay the release just because it doesn't work/isn't finished/hasn't been tested?"
That's not going to sell well to volume licensers or corporate server admins. Red Hat and other corporate Linux distros made sales because they've learned that. Ubuntu is getting a lot of goodwill changeovers, particularly playing the "free vs. microsoft tax" arguments with local government/education buyers. But that will only take them so far, and it won't allow them to get away with some of the frankly shoddy work they're doing on the OS.0 -
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Slutmonkey57b wrote: »Good point. You probably won't like the length of this one then!
The problem we're talking about is mounting hard drives after a clean install. The mouse issue is from kubuntu and I didn't have it with Laurel (on the other hand kubuntu had a full logitech driver). While not defaulting to administrator access is admirable, asking me for a password to access my own drives is something that the designers and I profoundly disagree on.
Sigh, just add them to your fstab and stop complaining! We are not talking about Kubuntu in this thread. We are talking about Ubuntu the primary operating operating system of Canonical. I have Ubuntu and never have to put in passwords to access my drives.Canonical is making a big noise about how Ubuntu is up to the standard of being a replacement for windows - not just an "advanced Linux distro". It's touted not only as a viable alternative, but as a potential sale to mass corporate users and volume licenses. From that perspective, I am looking at it as follows: Are they right, or are they full of shi.t? After my kubuntu install, I came to the conclusion that their idea of "stable release" and mine were very different. The blurb about Laurel'n'Hardy is that is an LTS "very stable" release. Having viewed it, one thing is clear - clearer than it was with the last version:
They are nowhere near being able to design a windows replacement.
Eh ... it is. I find it vastly superior than anything I have used before. The majority if things you are saying are completely untrue.
1. You need passwords to access your harddrive. False
2. You need a password to change a mouse setting . False
3 When totem installs a codec it is not system wide. False (tested this on a new install I did yesterday.)
4. You complain about Ubuntu not looking on the install CD before checking on the internet. Why , why, why would it do this? Everything is installed from the CD. There is not reason to install anything from it later???
5 The "jags" when using firefox I experienced this for week when hardy as still in Alpha. It was fixed with an updated video driver through the repositories.stuck their heads right in the sand with their fingers in their ears singing LAA LAA LAA.....I didn't have it with Laurel
These kind of comments really don't help your argument, even when you put them in bold.aexamples I highlighted at the end of my last post are all pretty small issues. Nothing life threatening. What's worrying about them is not that they're there, it's that Canonical don't see them as a problem. They should, because those decisions are telling the outside world a lot
I don't see the problem either? Aside from a couple of things I agreed on, eg documentation.I'll go back to my favourite example to highlight how that thinking is exposed; Firefox Beta. Here's what it tells us:- They had a release schedule set.
- One of their most important release apps wasn't going to be ready on time.
- Rather than delay the release, they slapped in the Beta version and told everybody they'd upgrade the release in a month.
Here's what it actually tells us: "If it's not ready, or it's not working right, we'll whack it in anyway and maybe we'll fix it later. Fu.ck it, it's your problem now, you don't like it make your own, why should we delay the release just because it doesn't work/isn't finished/hasn't been tested?"
Firefox 3 in its current state is extremely stable and far far better than Firefox 2. I remember reading that there were 700,000 users of it about a month ago prior to the hardy release. I don't think its a problem. If there was/is a security flaw it will be patched as soon as its found. If there were issues with Firefox 3 then the LTS version probably would have not been released.That's not going to sell well to volume licensers or corporate server admins. Red Hat and other corporate Linux distros made sales because they've learned that. Ubuntu is getting a lot of goodwill changeovers, particularly playing the "free vs. microsoft tax" arguments with local government/education buyers. But that will only take them so far, and it won't allow them to get away with some of the frankly shoddy work they're doing on the OS.
Again, shoddy? Seriously! Most people, definitely myself wouldn't see it as free vs MS sales tax. Microsoft made their product they can certainly charge what they want for it. I see it as caged vs freedom. Just one example this is brainstorm.ubuntu.com If people ask for something in enough numbers it happens.
I'm gonna have to exit this thread aswell. Its taking far to much time to write this. I'm sure you'll agree! I do love linux though and I use Ubuntu because of the various versions of linux I've used, I find Ubuntu to be the best and it has a fantastic community!0 -
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stereo_steve wrote: »Eh ... it is. I find it vastly superior than anything I have used before. The majority if things you are saying are completely untrue.
How is it superior? Is it faster? Smoother? More stable? Less bloat? Looks prettier? What functionality does it provide that other OS's don't? I couldn't find a single (positive) unique, interesting, or more importantly, useful thing about it. It doesn't allow me to do anything I haven't already been doing on some other OS for several years now.1. You need passwords to access your harddrive. False
What? I must have been hallucinating when I saw a box pop up and ask me for the administrator password when I wanted to open the hard drive then?
Disagree with me if you want, but don't call me a liar.2. You need a password to change a mouse setting . False
Again, I must have been seeing things? And seeing as I made a point of saying that this happened in kubuntu, not ubuntu, you're accusing me of lying based on a deliberate misconception.3 When totem installs a codec it is not system wide. False (tested this on a new install I did yesterday.)
That did not happen with me. Again, were you looking over my shoulder? Don't call me a liar.4. You complain about Ubuntu not looking on the install CD before checking on the internet. Why , why, why would it do this? Everything is installed from the CD. There is not reason to install anything from it later???
Because, as I so carefully pointed out, IF you don't have net access, you can't
A) get help to fix your problem;
install NDISwrapper which would enable you to get online in the first place. A less brainless designer would have thought of that, and made them part of the default install, or put out a DVD image with optional popular (even voted by the community) apps, drivers, and tools on it.
Ubuntu would have every right to not bother looking at the install disk and jump straight to searching the net, IF it didn't have such a well-deserved reputation for incomplete wireless support. It doesn't, so it has no business assuming that the internet is its first port of call.5 The "jags" when using firefox I experienced this for week when hardy as still in Alpha. It was fixed with an updated video driver through the repositories.
Other people (on the forums, not just me) are not experiencing the same performance. Again, they are not liars just because you don't agree with them. Just because your specific hardware is working, does not mean everyone's is.I don't see the problem either? Aside from a couple of things I agreed on, eg documentation.
Then you're missing the whole point of what I was arguing about.Firefox 3 in its current state is extremely stable and far far better than Firefox 2. I remember reading that there were 700,000 users of it about a month ago prior to the hardy release. I don't think its a problem. If there was/is a security flaw it will be patched as soon as its found. If there were issues with Firefox 3 then the LTS version probably would have not been released.
Again, you're missing the point I was making. As to whether the LTS would "probably" not have been released, that depends on how much faith you have in Canonical's commitment to Quality Control. I have very little.Again, shoddy? Seriously! Most people, definitely myself wouldn't see it as free vs MS sales tax. Microsoft made their product they can certainly charge what they want for it. I see it as caged vs freedom. Just one example this is brainstorm.ubuntu.com If people ask for something in enough numbers it happens.
Yes, shoddy. Not up to standard. Not good enough.
Useful requests on the front page of brainstorm, then:Integrated Compiz-Check
Written by artir the 2 May 08 at 11:53. Category: Look and Feel. New
Compiz-Check(http://forum.compiz-fusion.org/showthread.php?t=8167) is a script that checks your system and sees why you cant run compiz. So, with this script, Ubuntu will say: "Desktop effects couldnt been enabled because X" instead of just "D.E. couldnt been enabled."Migrate settings like on a Mac
Written by terra the 2 May 08 at 04:18. Category: Installation. New
There should be a way to duplicate settings from one installation to another. Mac can do this...Have a device manager
Written by ToSsMaStR the 1 May 08 at 21:33. Category: Look and Feel. New
Have a device manager, similar to windows, where one can see what devices are functioning properly and what needs to be installed and what not.Undo when renaming files
Written by bdamer the 1 May 08 at 21:43. Category: Accessibility. New
When renaming a file in nautilus, there is no way to undo changes made while typing. Just as in most other applications, the last changes should be reverted when the user hits CTRL+Z.apt-get from install CD should use the CD when useful
Written by tgape the 1 May 08 at 22:18. Category: Installation. New
Install CDs which are not full live filesystems generally have many of the install packages on them. However, apparently apt-get prefers getting them from online, because the install I just initiated a couple hours ago is fetching *everything* from the net, despite the fact that many of the packages are on the CD, and at least some of those are the latest version.
IMHO, if a version of a package exists on a CD, it should use that package, and only download a patch file, if that saves any time. If the version on the CD is the latest, it should certainly not download from the net - doing so wastes ubuntu.com bandwidth and consumes additional time.Ubuntu pre-installed on the usb drives
Written by eyerouge the 2 May 08 at 04:06. Category: System. New
Canonical store is already selling 1 GB usb flash drives. Why not start selling 2, 3 or 4 GB drives with latest Ubuntu pre-installed on them?
It's actually quite astonishing this isn't in the store already.
For the record, I chose from only the most popular items on the frontpage (~50 votes+), with the exception of the CD install issue, which I included because of its humorous value (and technical discussion) and I didn't go out of my way to make ubuntu look bad.
What do we have?
People want an equivalent to DxDiag.
People want an equivalent to "Files and Settings Transfer Wizard"
People want an equivalent to device manager. (as opposed to a help file that claims there is one when there isn't)
People want the file navigator to support Undo. (Like explorer does).
Someone thinks that defaulting to install off the net is a waste of time and bandwith considering the up-to-date files he's downloading are already on the install CD!
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/usb.html - Pity nobody else thought of selling pre-installed linux pen drives....
People want features that other OS's have been sporting for years!I'm gonna have to exit this thread aswell. Its taking far to much time to write this. I'm sure you'll agree! I do love linux though and I use Ubuntu because of the various versions of linux I've used, I find Ubuntu to be the best and it has a fantastic community!
I understand I'm coming across as a big negative basher. I wish that was because I wasn't! But this install was my "second chance" for ubuntu to prove itself. Not only did it not prove itself, I found the whole experience more dissapointing this time.0 -
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selling ? , you can request a free ubuntu CDSlutmonkey wrote:http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/usb.html - Pity nobody else thought of selling pre-installed linux pen drives....
almost every live CD can be run from a USB key
not just linux free dos and solaris clones also run from usb
you can cheat and have a dos format usb key + loadlin
0 price tagPeople want features that other OS's have been sporting for years!
security
no restrictions on number of processors / clients / services they can run without purchasing additional licenses0 -
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I really want ed to let this go but just had to write back....Slutmonkey57b wrote: »How is it superior? Is it faster? Smoother? More stable? Less bloat? Looks prettier? What functionality does it provide that other OS's don't? I couldn't find a single (positive) unique, interesting, or more importantly, useful thing about it. It doesn't allow me to do anything I haven't already been doing on some other OS for several years now.
No more "euros for eulas".
No more viruses.
No more bsods
No more registry.
No more dll`s
No more wga
More freedom
Not limited to a closed list of hardware (Apple)
With regard to other distributions... Ubuntu has won Best Distribution , Best Community , Outstanding Contribution to Linux , Linux Journal's Reader's Choice , and many more.What? I must have been hallucinating when I saw a box pop up and ask me for the administrator password when I wanted to open the hard drive then?
Disagree with me if you want, but don't call me a liar.
We covered this. When you install Ubuntu you are presented with a screen showing all your harddrives. Where do you want Ubuntu installed etc. You obviously did not select for the other drives to be mounted on boot. Add them to you fstab and the problem is fixed. Should this have been made clearer to you on install? Perhaps it could be done better.Ubuntu would have every right to not bother looking at the install disk and jump straight to searching the net, IF it didn't have such a well-deserved reputation for incomplete wireless support. It doesn't, so it has no business assuming that the internet is its first port of call.
Repeat, there is nothing on the disk to install later, nada, zilch! There is no reason to look on the disk for anything. Maybe a DVD will be created in the future with alot of packages on it maybe not. Its not really the responsibly of Ubuntu to do this. They provide an OS and some core packages, thats what you get. If you want something else, go get it yourself!Then you're missing the whole point of what I was arguing about.
Not really you seem to have an absolute vendetta for Ubuntu.Again, you're missing the point I was making. As to whether the LTS would "probably" not have been released, that depends on how much faith you have in Canonical's commitment to Quality Control. I have very little.
They are doing a superb job, especially with Launch pad. Everyone can contribute bugs and you can review their status online. I'm very happy with it. Although I seem to have a different view of it. I think, you think Ubuntu should meet some high standard that will revolutionise computers for all time and never be surpassed by a future release. Is it perfect, no! But I think its the best OS for my needs out there.Useful requests on the front page of brainstorm, then:
Integrated Compiz-Check
Written by artir the 2 May 08 at 11:53. Category: Look and Feel. New
Compiz-Check(http://forum.compiz-fusion.org/showthread.php?t=8167) is a script that checks your system and sees why you cant run compiz. So, with this script, Ubuntu will say: "Desktop effects couldnt been enabled because X" instead of just "D.E. couldnt been enabled."
This is an excellent example of why I love linux. People just creating stuff for the community. However it should not have been released with Hardy. Why? Because Hardy was released after the script was written. I'm sure we will see it in the next hardy realease, Ibex.Migrate settings like on a Mac
Written by terra the 2 May 08 at 04:18. Category: Installation. New
There should be a way to duplicate settings from one installation to another. Mac can do this...
That would be nice all right. As far as I am aware though, can the Macs update their OS with the latest version by the click of a button? Ubuntu can.When renaming a file in nautilus, there is no way to undo changes made while typing. Just as in most other applications, the last changes should be reverted when the user hits CTRL+Z.
Definitely not good. But still this is more of a GNOME problem that effects all GNOME desktops.Have a device manager
Written by ToSsMaStR the 1 May 08 at 21:33. Category: Look and Feel. New
Have a device manager, similar to windows, where one can see what devices are functioning properly and what needs to be installed and what not.
Device management could defiantly be better.See I don't disagree on everything
IMHO, if a version of a package exists on a CD, it should use that package, and only download a patch file, if that saves any time. If the version on the CD is the latest, it should certainly not download from the net - doing so wastes ubuntu.com bandwidth and consumes additional time.
But there is nothing extra on the CD. There is just no space....Ubuntu pre-installed on the usb drives
Written by eyerouge the 2 May 08 at 04:06. Category: System. New
Canonical store is already selling 1 GB usb flash drives. Why not start selling 2, 3 or 4 GB drives with latest Ubuntu pre-installed on them?
It's actually quite astonishing this isn't in the store already.
If you are seriously using this as an argument, your just trolling now. What do you want? Would you like a 4GB memory stick in midnight blue? Maybe with a nice keyring attached? What does that have to do with Ubuntu?
As for the server edition of Ubuntu, its great, I have it on my home PC. Its rock solid. Why wouldn't it be though?! Its based on Debian. I see no problems with it. Nothing you have mentioned in this post so far gives reason to dismiss the server edition.
Can we let this go though? This thread has gone on long enough. We can just agree to disagree!0 -
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PogMoThoin wrote: »
Can a mod please lock this thread, Slutmonkey57b is just trolling at this stage.
I disagree. s/he just doesn't like ubuntu. I think this is making for some good conversation tbh.
on this point / bug:When renaming a file in nautilus, there is no way to undo changes made while typing. Just as in most other applications, the last changes should be reverted when the user hits CTRL+Z.
esc reverts changes. I agree that ctrl+z should work though. 0 -
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