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Nuala O'Faolain...

2

Comments

  • #32
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    robindch wrote: »
    That's not what I said. All I pointed out is that she could be somebody for whom changing a life-long belief causes her to lose self-respect. For example, imagine how all the world's christians would feel if it was Mohammad who descended from heaven in a golden chariot and hauled up outside the White House?
    To her credit, I don't think she's too worried about self-respect because she said for instance that she's not worried about her hair falling out. I know you don't believe this but her relationship with God for the rest of her life will determine her eternal fate - one blissful, the other constant agony.

    If I discovered that Mohammed was a true prophet, I would be shocked to my core. I would have to give up belief in God. This isn't going to happen though (IMO).
    robindch wrote: »
    That's not "a load of rubbish", but just simply an attempt to show how she might view things differently from you.When you believe that there is no such thing as a soul, and that the ideas of "salvation" and staying alive after you die are pious lies, then feelings and memories are all that's left. In this case, I think it's really quite reasonable that she's depressed that these are being lost.
    Yes, I appreciate this.


  • #33
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    I heard it too and had very mixed emotions about it.

    My Mum died last year of a brain tumour at 62 and always had a strong faith in the Catholic Church. I believe it was this faith that made her never cry once and laugh about things and remain positive right to the very end.

    While I myself renounced my Catholic/Christian roots many years ago, at this stage in my grieving I'm only beginning to look at the experience objectively and I am suddenly noticing how her faith carried her through.
    You have my sympathies; my mother died of cancer in Lourdes and she remained very positive to the end also.
    DublinWriter wrote: »
    This may sound very harsh, and I do realise that Nuala O'Faolain is most probably in a lot of distress right now, but I found her attitude very self-indulgent, whingy and mawkish.
    I can understand her situation. She thinks she (her id/ego/I) is about to disappear and be lost forever and I'm sure she's wondering what's the point of life.


  • #34
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    kelly1 wrote: »
    To her credit, I don't think she's too worried about self-respect because she said for instance that she's not worried about her hair falling out. I know you don't believe this but her relationship with God for the rest of her life will determine her eternal fate - one blissful, the other constant agony.

    I think her relationship with God is between herself and God, and not really any of your business. I think actually that your insistence that she approach God through your "path" is quite patronising, and one of the main reasons people like me find people like you quite hard to deal with. God is not hard to find, God is impossible to avoid. Instead of praying that she comes to the same conclusions as you do about God, I personally believe God would be better served if you simply prayed that she has a peaceful passing.

    with respect.


  • #35
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    In situations like this Noel it would be very difficult, nay impossible, to do anything worthwhile, especially because she finds the idea of God a meaningless one. Did she request prayers in her interview? (Don’t want to listen to it to be honest) You can't save people who do not want to be saved. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I find it vainglorious to pray for people who don't want you to pray for them. Let her ask Jesus to help her if she wants to. He’s only a word away for those who would but ask Him. If she doesn't want to do that then that is her choice. If she is right about God then she has nothing to worry about has she? Dead is just dead. Either she and people like her are the ones that should be pitied, or we are, for being concerned about their eternal salvation.
    The point is that she doesn't realize that she's facing judgment. No she didn't request prayers and I'm sure she doesn't want to go to Hell, she just doesn't believe it exists.

    The charitable thing to do is to pray for her conversion.


  • #36
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    tbh wrote: »
    I think her relationship with God is between herself and God, and not really any of your business. I think actually that your insistence that she approach God through your "path" is quite patronising, and one of the main reasons people like me find people like you quite hard to deal with. God is not hard to find, God is impossible to avoid. Instead of praying that she comes to the same conclusions as you do about God, I personally believe God would be better served if you simply prayed that she has a peaceful passing.

    with respect.
    Clearly you're not Christian and according to my faith we face judgment after death. We are saved by grace and this grace is lost through sin. Only God's forgiveness and the action of the Holy Spirit can restore this grace. In order to be saved, one needs to die in a state of grace.

    As a matter of interest, how do you find God?


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  • #37
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    "according to my faith" - see this is the problem. There are two words in there, MY and FAITH. MY, meaning it's personal to you, and FAITH meaning that it's something you believe in without having any proof. And that's cool, I don't have a problem with you believing in what you believe in. I don't believe that you need human intervention - in the guise of organised religion - to communicate with your creator, but I'm kind of funny like that. But if you were dying, I certainly wouldn't be praying that your eyes would be opened, I'd be praying that you find peace. How you find that peace doesn't really bother me. I don't really understand why you should feel that the only way to God is through the methods you've been taught. Don't you think God is more intelligent than man?

    As for how I find God, I don't really. God finds me, all I have to do is listen.

    I'm also interested in your definition of Christian. Do you think that if Nuala led a good, loving life but didn't go to mass on Sunday, God would turn his/her back on her? Cause, I have to say, that's not what my idea of Christ is.


  • #38
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    kelly1, you really should have posted this in the " Thread For Posting Prayer Requests," if you want it moved let me know, the debate, on the finer points, can continue to rage on here.


  • #39
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    kelly1 wrote: »
    The point is that she doesn't realize that she's facing judgment. No she didn't request prayers and I'm sure she doesn't want to go to Hell, she just doesn't believe it exists.

    The charitable thing to do is to pray for her conversion.

    I would pray for her if she requested it but she's not bothered so why should I be? Or you be for that matter? SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE CONVERTED!!! (Sorry for shouting)

    To be a Christian is to freely give oneself over to God to be used by Him for His purposes. That is the true meaning of the word 'saint' and 'holy' the word in the Greek that translates both is 'Hagios'. You cannot force that on anyone. It is a free choice made by the individual, all be it prompted by God’s spirit. God will not enter in uninvited. And how can Nuala invite Him in when she doesn't believe in Him? She's an intelligent woman; if she had been given no basis for faith in God throughout her life then God knows that. He will judge her according to her own knowledge. Christ still paid the price for her sins, and God is all merciful. It is none of our business how God deals with her. We won't be there when He’s doing it. Paul said: "..work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12. None of us are there yet. To get caught up in worrying about whether somebody else is saved or not just takes the focus off whether we ourselves are in the faith. Paul also says to: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;" 2 Corinthians 13:5 This message applies to Nuala as well but she doesn't accept it. You can't make her become a Christian if she doesn't want to. Jesus says that: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:" John 6:44

    She is in God’s hands and He will deal rightly with her regardless. Just worry about your own salvation because to focus on somebody else's is to assume you are ok, and when you assume you are ok then you are not working out your own salvation with fear and trembling (literally 'Phobias and traumas' in the Greek).


  • #40
    JCB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 306 ✭✭JCB


    robindch wrote: »
    It's interesting that you seem to believe what's referred to as the "rational-choice" argument for religion which isn't believed to be very accurate description.

    Notice I used the word reasonable not rational to avoid the very point you're making.
    I didn't listen to the interview myself, but I disagree with her about downgrading passion -- personally, the world would be an infinitely dull place if it were full of people who valued endless health-obsessed reflection, rather than passion :)

    I think it might have been most important for her than overall(i.e. world), I'd have to listen again to confirm.
    But, remember she would have said exactly the same thing at your age.
    Miaow :)
    No prizes for guessing what I was referring to.
    I was referring to the case of somebody spending all their cash (metaphor for spending all their life) with the expectation that they would win something tomorrow (not dying). Putting all one's cash onto a single bet is a bad idea, as any gambler will tell you.

    But the point is that your metaphor doesn't capture what you're trying to describe. To through away all your cash now = irrevocably throwing away you're future resources on a promise.
    You must remember that a religious person can always change they're mind and *take back* the cash that you suppose they've thrown away, as you put it.
    By linking the two examples you mix up past and future decisions, in what I view to be a snide attempt to make religious people out to be morons. Am I wrong? Are you're motivations more admirable?

    Last time now -- in my earlier post(s), I am saying that FOR NUALA ALONE, it MIGHT HAPPEN that SHE IS somebody who views religion as something which replaces the certainty of death with a false hope of life. And IN HER CASE, that might cause her to lose her self-respect. I am not saying that this applies to everybody, or even very many people; I am saying that it MAY apply to NUALA ALONE.

    Thank you for clarifying :) - the repeated use of the word MAY was lacking.

    But I can't help but feel, all you're doing is glorifying pride, making it out to be some sort of virtue.

    No one should be ashamed if they think they are wrong to do/think something and change their mind. How else can we learn?

    If Nuala wants to believe in God, then her pride should not stop her doing so.

    If Nuala doesn't want to believe in God then grand!


  • #41
    Splendour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Um, for an atheist, death is literally nothing to us. .


    So why then, do you think, Nuala is so depressed about her impending situation?


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  • #42
    Splendour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    In situations like this Noel it would be very difficult, nay impossible, to do anything worthwhile, especially because she finds the idea of God a meaningless one. Did she request prayers in her interview? (Don’t want to listen to it to be honest) You can't save people who do not want to be saved. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I find it vainglorious to pray for people who don't want you to pray for them. Let her ask Jesus to help her if she wants to. He’s only a word away for those who would but ask Him. If she doesn't want to do that then that is her choice. If she is right about God then she has nothing to worry about has she? Dead is just dead. Either she and people like her are the ones that should be pitied, or we are, for being concerned about their eternal salvation.

    Don't recall reading anything about Paul wanting to convert,(quite the opposite in fact), but God had other plans for him...


  • #43
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    I would pray for her if she requested it but she's not bothered so why should I be? Or you be for that matter? SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE CONVERTED!!! (Sorry for shouting)
    Don't you see the point I'm making!? She doesn't believe in Hell and she could be headed there if she doesn't repent! She doesn't realize the danger her soul is in and she probably doesn't believe she has a soul. What could possibly be wrong with praying for her?? If she converts by the grace of God, you can be certain that she will be forever grateful and will pray for those who prayed for her. It's a win win situation.


  • #44
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Splendour wrote: »
    So why then, do you think, Nuala is so depressed about her impending situation?
    Personally I think most atheists are cavalier about death now but when it comes to the time, I reckons dread fear will set in!


  • #45
    stakey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 722 ✭✭✭stakey


    kelly1, this really is a pathetic little crusade you are on here. First and foremost Nuala is a human being, whatever other label that is applied in life comes second. As a human being the least you could do is observe and respect her opinions. When you are taking the journey she is on perhaps you too can take to the airwaves and discuss how you feel fine exiting this world knowing that your sky god is waiting to give you some sort of everlasting life.

    She's on the last journey of her life, she chose to share her opinions of the most personal journey anyone can take. She didn't go on the radio requesting anyone to 'pray' for her soul. It's shocking that the most you got out of this woman's disclosure is a need to spread your religion.

    She's not being judged, she's got cancer, a scary disease that kills millions worldwide every year along with thousands of other diseases, war, famine and preventable causes of death. Perhaps instead of praying for Nuala's soul look at praying to your god to get off of his procrastinating ass and heal some of societies ills.


  • #46
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    first of all, can i say that people referring to noels request as a 'pathetic little crusade', or the like are being way ott IMO. I think Noel believes that this lady is headed for hell, and wishes that she converted to save herself. if he genuinely believes this, then far from being pathetic, he's being concerned for her afterlife. Fair enough if you don't agree with his belief, but if he does believe it, you could hardly call it pathetic to wish that she didn't end up being burnt forever!

    On that point Noel, i'll contend with you though. You seem certain that she is going to hell. may I ask how you know?


  • #47
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    JimiTime wrote: »
    On that point Noel, i'll contend with you though. You seem certain that she is going to hell. may I ask how you know?
    I'm not certain at all but if she dies in a state of mortal sin, she faces damnation. The question is how is she going to receive forgiveness if she doesn't ask God? Without forgiveness, she cannot be saved. I'm very concerned that she will die unrepentant which is why I'm asking people to pray for her conversion. I imagine most Christians would agree with this position??


  • #48
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    stakey wrote: »
    kelly1, this really is a pathetic little crusade you are on here. First and foremost Nuala is a human being, whatever other label that is applied in life comes second. As a human being the least you could do is observe and respect her opinions. When you are taking the journey she is on perhaps you too can take to the airwaves and discuss how you feel fine exiting this world knowing that your sky god is waiting to give you some sort of everlasting life.

    She's on the last journey of her life, she chose to share her opinions of the most personal journey anyone can take. She didn't go on the radio requesting anyone to 'pray' for her soul. It's shocking that the most you got out of this woman's disclosure is a need to spread your religion.

    She's not being judged, she's got cancer, a scary disease that kills millions worldwide every year along with thousands of other diseases, war, famine and preventable causes of death. Perhaps instead of praying for Nuala's soul look at praying to your god to get off of his procrastinating ass and heal some of societies ills.
    Stakey, I was motivated to start this thread through compassion for her situation and how she feels facing death. Did you listen to the interview? She's lost nearly all of the former joy she got from life and finds it hard to deal with her belief that she will cease to exist when she dies. I really feel for her. I wish I could talk to her and try to give her hope.

    You obviously don't believe in an afterlife but I do. She is facing the death of her physical body but her soul will continue to exist either in agony or ecstasy and I pray that God will be merciful to her. I pray that Jesus will touch her heart and draw her to Himself.


  • #49
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'm not certain at all but if she dies in a state of mortal sin, she faces damnation. The question is how is she going to receive forgiveness if she doesn't ask God? Without forgiveness, she cannot be saved. I'm very concerned that she will die unrepentant which is why I'm asking people to pray for her conversion. I imagine most Christians would agree with this position??


    hmm, some of us wish her all the best and hopes she finds peace. Others are insisting that unless she follows the same rules they themselves believe in, she'll burn in hell for all eternity. Which opinion would Jesus agree with I wonder?


  • #50
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    tbh wrote: »
    hmm, some of us wish her all the best and hopes she finds peace.
    what good is a peaceful death if she ends up in a very unpeaceful place when she dies!?


  • #51
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    kelly1 wrote: »
    what good is a peaceful death if she ends up in a very unpeaceful place when she dies!?

    she won't.


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  • #52
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    tbh wrote: »
    she won't.
    How do you know that? How do you know that she won't be judged and found wanting when she dies ?
    tbh wrote:
    I'm also interested in your definition of Christian. Do you think that if Nuala led a good, loving life but didn't go to mass on Sunday, God would turn his/her back on her? Cause, I have to say, that's not what my idea of Christ is.
    She has turned her back on God, not the other way around. Unfortunately, that's her choice. I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.


  • #53
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    kelly1 wrote: »
    How do you know that? How do you know that she won't be judged and found wanting when she dies ?

    There are so many quotes in the bible that tell us not to presume to know the mind of God, why do you insist on saying that you know God better than I or anyone else? It's smug and it's patronising, but above all, it does nothing to help.
    She has turned her back on God, not the other way around. Unfortunately, that's her choice. I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.

    whatever.


  • #54
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.
    ...which reminds me of a similar idea that was posted on B+W the other day:
    Diderot wrote:
    Another, told by the writer Diderot in the 18th century, is about the journey of Catholic missionaries to Tahiti--a dialogue between a chief named Orou and a priest, who tries to explain the concept of sin.

    Orou says that many of the things Europeans find sinful are sources of pride in his island. He doesn’t understand the idea of adultery, since in his culture generosity and sharing are virtues. Marriage to a single man or woman is unnatural and selfish. And surely there can be nothing wrong with being naked and enjoying sexual pleasure for its own sake—otherwise, why do our bodies exist. The horrified priest delivers a long sermon on Christian beliefs, and ends by saying,

    “And now that I have explained the laws of our religion, you must do everything to please God and to avoid the pains of hell.”

    Orou says, “You mean, when I was ignorant of these commandments, I was innocent, but now that I know them, I am a guilty sinner who might go to hell.”

    “Exactly,” the priest says.

    “Then why did you tell me?” says Orou.


  • #55
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'm not certain at all but if she dies in a state of mortal sin, she faces damnation. The question is how is she going to receive forgiveness if she doesn't ask God? Without forgiveness, she cannot be saved. I'm very concerned that she will die unrepentant which is why I'm asking people to pray for her conversion. I imagine most Christians would agree with this position??


    I agree, if you were moved by her story about her despairing that this life is all she has, then praying for her to find the hope that lies in Faith in Gods promise is a loving thing to do. However, I would stop short of assuming that she will be condemned. Remember the people who spat, kicked, whipped jeered and then finally impaled our King. Remember Jesus' solemn words. 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do'. So we know that its not as black and white as what you are making out. To assume that she is condemned is judging her, and we have not the power to see her heart. 'Judge not lest yee be judged'. I understand your intentions are honourable Noel, but I wouldn't jump the gun on her being doomed. Would a priest, or the catholic church as a whole, teach that this woman is going to hell? Just curious if this is your view or the view of the RC church a s a whole?


  • #56
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.
    I am puzzled, how can one do a bad thing unknowingly? Is it not yourself that is deciding it is a bad thing? It brings to mind a quote from your own scriptures, "In my father's house there are many mansions (JOHN 14:2)." How do you interpret this?


  • #57
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree, if you were moved by her story about her despairing that this life is all she has, then praying for her to find the hope that lies in Faith in Gods promise is a loving thing to do. However, I would stop short of assuming that she will be condemned. Remember the people who spat, kicked, whipped jeered and then finally impaled our King. Remember Jesus' solemn words. 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do'. So we know that its not as black and white as what you are making out. To assume that she is condemned is judging her, and we have not the power to see her heart. 'Judge not lest yee be judged'. I understand your intentions are honourable Noel, but I wouldn't jump the gun on her being doomed. Would a priest, or the catholic church as a whole, teach that this woman is going to hell? Just curious if this is your view or the view of the RC church a s a whole?

    I would love to know what you think about that Noel? If I was forced to follow a brand of Christianity I probably think I'd go with this one (never going to happen don't worry :) ). It seems far more humble and less judgmental. Where is the beauty and the peace of mind in the RC church, its all fire and brimstone? I wonder why?


  • #58
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Asiaprod wrote: »
    I am puzzled, how can one do a bad thing unknowingly? Is it not yourself that is deciding it is a bad thing?
    Far as I know, christian belief says that an action is judged solely upon the intention which gave rise to it. Hence, an action isn't "bad" unless you intend it to be bad and you're right to query Noel's understanding (it also seems to get Nuala off the hook, since she doesn't believe that what she's doing is bad) By corollary, I don't think that "good" actions should be called so unless they derive from an intention to be good (which doesn't seem to happen in practice, but that's one of the enjoyably asymmetric qualities of christianity -- you can have your cake, it seems, and eat it).

    Same thing happens with the christian definition of dishonesty -- you can't lie "unintentionally" since the definition of "lie" requires an intention to mislead. So, in a christian context, as long as you sincerely believe that something is true, then the factual accuracy of your belief is completely irrelevant and you don't seem to be under any onus to verify the accuracy either. Which goes some way towards explaining, for example, why Bush and Blair (both fervent christians in this sense) assumed no responsibility, nor seem even to have felt any need to assume responsibility, for the consequences of their actions regarding Iraq.


  • #59
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    robindch wrote: »
    Far as I know, christian belief says that an action is judged solely upon the intention which gave rise to it. Hence, an action isn't "bad" unless you intend it to be bad

    Not so. An action can still be bad. A person can do the right thing for the wrong reason, or the wrong thing for the right reason. The condition of the heart in these matters is what is truly important.

    (it also seems to get Nuala off the hook, since she doesn't believe that what she's doing is bad)

    Only God will judge. Just like I said she cannot be condemned, neither can she be acquitted. God is her judge, not you, Noel or me!
    Same thing happens with the christian definition of dishonesty -- you can't lie "unintentionally" since the definition of "lie" requires an intention to mislead. So, in a christian context, as long as you sincerely believe that something is true, then the factual accuracy of your belief is completely irrelevant and you don't seem to be under any onus to verify the accuracy either. Which goes some way towards explaining, for example, why Bush and Blair (both fervent christians in this sense) assumed no responsibility, nor seem even to have felt any need to assume responsibility, for the consequences of their actions regarding Iraq.

    A very cheap shot. And completely lacks any insight!


  • #60
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    The condition of the heart in these matters is what is truly important.
    Yes, that's exactly what my point is -- in christianity, it's the intention that counts, not the result. And since intention is produced by, and resides within, the believer alone, it doesn't need to have any connection with reality.

    Effectively, within christianity, the believer seems to think they have the moral right to do anything at all, as long as they believe it's "good", where they get to define "good" too. It's an ethical free-for-all.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    A very cheap shot. And completely lacks any insight!
    On the contrary, the war in Iraq was the greatest and most disastrous of Bush's "faith-based initiatives".

    The "condition of the heart" is important, but must be trumped at all times by reality if you wish to avoid catastrophies like Iraq.


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  • #61
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, that's exactly what my point is -- in christianity, it's the intention that counts, not the result. And since intention is produced by, and resides within, the believer alone, it doesn't need to have any connection with reality.

    Effectively, within christianity, the believer seems to think they have the moral right to do anything at all, as long as they believe it's "good", where they get to define "good" too. It's an ethical free-for-all.

    Once again, a lack of insight. But if someones purpose is to shoot down religion, then you have to expect some collateral damage i suppose.
    On the contrary, the war in Iraq was the greatest and most disastrous of Bush's "faith-based initiatives".

    The "condition of the heart" is important, but must be trumped at all times by reality if you wish to avoid catastrophies like Iraq.

    I really don't think you believe some of the nonsense you type.


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