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Has the popularity of golf reduced the standards of etiquette on the course?

  • 15-04-2008 08:57AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭


    Golf has seen unprecedented growth in this country over the last 20 odd years.

    In 1986 there were 243 golf clubs with 120,000 members, and now there are over 400 with around 250,000 members. (Source: Poster on wall of toilets at GUI Academy!)

    Years ago (way back in the early 1900's), golf was a gentleman's game (and ladies of course), where the dress code was always suit, tie and trousers, socks up to the knee. Ladies wore huge dresses and the like.

    As time has moved on, more and more people have taken up the game - which is not a bad thing.

    But have golf clubs let their standards slip - or is it that golf clubs today will just allow anyone to play as long as they have the Euro in their pocket?

    A recent thread (which is now locked) discussed etiquette on the range - but what about etiquette in the golf club, or on the course, or in the bar afterwards?

    Since when have blue denim jeans become acceptable on course attire?

    When did shouting across the fairway to your playing colleagues become OK?

    Does every golfer that takes to the fairways understand the basic rules of golf?

    There is a debate to be had here, and it would be interesting to get people's feedback and experience of this.

    Maybe you are in a club where none of this happens - if you are then tell us.

    If you are in a club that has everyday examples of what I'm talking about then tell us!

    I would ask that this does not become a slagging contest.

    Slumped


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Great post Slumped. I really hope this can be debated in the spirit in which you have presented the subject.

    I think we all have to take the simple answer - YES - as a start-point. I don't think there's an argument that dress code and ettiquette standards have shifted downward since the golfing boom began.

    But way more importantly, I think the key debate here is whether this is a GOOD or a BAD thing...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 Anfield legends


    I can fully understand the points being made,I have only started playing golf in the last 2 years & what i expected to see on the course & what i saw on the course are two different things.The image of golf being a "gentlemans" game has long since gone.In my opinion the rise in popularity of golf has lowered the standard of both class & skill to a certain degree (having to play on a course where obstacles are kids running about!)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    With my own golf thus far, I have been/am a member of Milltown, Ballinascorney, South County and Courtown golf clubs. A healthy mix of the old order of "snooty" 100 years old+ course, working class hacker-track, country course with class and a lot of green-fees and newly built new-money celtic tiger club. I'll leave it to yourselves to work out which is which ;)

    Personally, I think golf needed a new influx to balance it's once too-high standards (IMO). But I think there is also a danger of this going the other way and traditional standards being let slip too much.

    Who is responsible for this? I disagree with what seems to be a popular assumption that it's 100% up to new golfers to familiarise themselves with the full details of golfing ettiquette. I think things were as they were in the pre-golf boom days because courses restricted people from playing. Despite the fact that this is verging on racism, the idea that new clubs should ensure new golfers should play with experienced golfers initially to guide them in the rules and standards is a good one IMO. So underneath the surface, "restricting" a fourball of beginners from taking to the course makes sense.

    But what happend? Money happened. The golfing industry realised that it was an industry. Clubs now accpet the fourball of beginners once they have x amount of cash.

    So my point is, golf has let itself down by focusing on revenue to the detriment of best practice for inducting new golfers.

    The old way was that to play a good club you had to be the guest of a member - even if it was your first game you still had someone to guide you.

    So yes, I think new comers need to appreciate there are codes of practice on a golf course that are there for hundreds of years but there's also an onus on clubs to uphold these standars but instead, many are purely focused on their bottom line.


  • Subscribers Posts: 16,745 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    good thread lads, but lets keep it on an even keel, any talk of 'skangers' or 'D4sies' or whatever the kids are calling it now days will result in a lock and bannings. This isn't after hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭gaf1983


    Very interesting debate this, especially about the rights and wrongs of etiquette being diluted, if this is the case. Similar debate has been going on in my tennis club (has probably been going on for years to be honest) about growing popularity of the game leading to traditions being eroded (i.e. players not wearing whites).

    Read an interesting article that addresses some of the points made in this thread in this week's Economist on George Fellows, CEO of Callaway, and if he gets his way golf will become even more popular. He would want that I suppose.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Stealdo


    I think it's obvious that there are some positives and some negatives to this, but as others have said the debate is really which outweighs which, or more importantly where is the balance and how do we move from where we are now to that.
    To get to that I think people need to look deeper into this to find the root cause. Is it really that the popularity of golf has reduced the standards of etiquette? or would it be more true to say that a reduction in the standards of etiquette has lead to an increase in the popularity of golf?
    The introduction of more pay n' play facilities both private and local authority has obviously impacted and these would generally be far from bastions of the R&A rules (and would never have been set up to be). Have these facilities taken a small percentage of golfers away from the clubs that would have been paying big money green fees as non members - forcing the clubs to lower their standards/fees to compete? If not then we need to know why the traditional clubs couldn't co-exist with these facilities if there are really two separate tiers of players looking for different experiences. Maybe these facilities popped up luring more people into the newly accessible game and the clubs saw an opportunity, got greedy and we're now seeing the effects?
    There's no doubt that there are improvements from the increase in players, more choice, better value (at least for the newer players to the game, like myself) but even as a newer player I am occasionally (and I must say that it is occasional not every time I play by a long stretch) shocked by some things I see on the course. We won't however have a reasoned debate while we're talking in hysterics as if there's a situation where you can't play a round without some guy ringing his buddy on the other side of the fairway to tell him to pull his 3 year old out of the water hazard and pick up his bucket and spade from the bunker before moving on to the next tee. There are different instances and levels of this that you will get between public authority courses, private pay n' play courses, newer clubs and older clubs. Someone who only say plays the old club in Portmarnock probably wouldn't know what we are talking about, whereas someone who has only ever played in Deer Park probably doesn't see what all the fuss is about. It's those of us who fluctuate between all four that see this, and probably don't give enough consideration to where we're playing (and how much we're paying) when we judge these. The same standards can't really apply.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    As Stealdo said.....it depends on where you play. In the better clubs there tends to be better behaviour and better dress codes. I have noticed that clubs in N.I. generally don't allow demin whereas it's become acceptable in the rest of Ireland.

    On the course, I've very rarely noticed any problems but that's because I don't play on the very cheap courses......waste of money in my opinion because the fairways and especially the greens are useless.

    I think the majority of golfers still respect the rules of etiquette.

    But the main reason that standards may be dropping is that society itself is dumbing down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    stockdam wrote: »

    But the main reason that standards may be dropping is that society itself is dumbing down.

    Great thread!!

    I think you've hit on a good point there stockdam. I was chatting to a guy at the football on Saturday who told me about how the last time he'd been to see this particular team in the semi-final of the cup, virtually the whole of the crowd was in shirt and tie and long coats.

    I quite often play the pay-as-you-play courses (mainly because i can get a game on them), but playing them on a saturday or a bank holiday is a nightmare as the condition of the courses drops considerably. Last bank holiday i played a public course late in the day and on one green i repaired 18 pitch marks that had just been left. Obviously the increase in the number of casual golfers is a big factor, especially when you get four of them together in one fourball.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,887 ✭✭✭WHIP IT!


    stockdam wrote: »
    As Stealdo said.....it depends on where you play. In the better clubs there tends to be better behaviour and better dress codes. I have noticed that clubs in N.I. generally don't allow demin whereas it's become acceptable in the rest of Ireland.

    On the course, I've very rarely noticed any problems but that's because I don't play on the very cheap courses......waste of money in my opinion because the fairways and especially the greens are useless.

    I think the majority of golfers still respect the rules of etiquette.

    But the main reason that standards may be dropping is that society itself is dumbing down.

    Lads, has it really become acceptable to wear denim?? I have to say I haven't come across it much.

    Increasingly coming across greens destroyed in pitch-marks and unraked bunkers alright I must say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭slumped


    WHIP IT! wrote: »
    Lads, has it really become acceptable to wear denim?? I have to say I haven't come across it much.

    Increasingly coming across greens destroyed in pitch-marks and unraked bunkers alright I must say.

    There is a particular club in Dublin where I've seen blue denim, tracksuits, soccer jerseys and t-shirts with no collar.

    Some clubs obviuosly believe that it is acceptable. The course in question has starters and rangers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Hobart


    slumped wrote: »
    There is a particular club in Dublin where I've seen blue denim, tracksuits, soccer jerseys and t-shirts with no collar.

    Some clubs obviuosly believe that it is acceptable. The course in question has starters and rangers.

    I played in Headford yesterday. I saw 2 people wearing denims on the course. I don't wear denims when playing golf, whether allowed or not. I don't really have an issue with other people wearing denims, or collarless tops either tbh. If the club dress code permits it, I don't see the issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Par72


    Hobart wrote: »
    I played in Headford yesterday. I saw 2 people wearing denims on the course. I don't wear denims when playing golf, whether allowed or not. I don't really have an issue with other people wearing denims, or collarless tops either tbh. If the club dress code permits it, I don't see the issue.

    I agree, I couldn't care less what those around me are wearing on the golf course. What harm is it for someone to wear a pair of jeans anyway? My club has a pretty strict dress code and denim etc is not permitted but I don't see the point of it tbh. Certainly when it comes to raking bunkers, repairing pitch marks etc. I think etiquette should be strongly adhered to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭clg23


    Im not pushed on what people wear on the course. As long as they respect the course and other players.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    I brought up the demin thing ......... I don't have any problem with jeans or tops as long as they look clean. I do object to football tops except for kids.

    It kinda boils down to snobbery in a way. If you reduce the prices then you will get a certain type of person who doesn't really have a clue (the majority will be decent people but there will be a few who don't have a clue). On the other hand if the prices are high then generally you'll not have as many problems. Unfortunately that seems to be the way of the world and it's not necessarily my opinion........I'd like to see everyone have basic respect and basic etiquette but they need to play with those who have been taught.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    Might sound weird but i actually think i play better when i'm properly dressed for golf. Maybe cos i'm more in the zone or something.

    Don't mind seeing jeans out on the course during practice or whatever but for competitions and stuff it should be a bit smarter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,887 ✭✭✭WHIP IT!


    ziggy wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    To be fair, I don't think he was suggesting that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭rigal


    ziggy wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I know what Stockdam is saying and IMO he is correct in some ways. It's not snobbery it's a fact of life - Regardless of your background if you pay more money to play golf you are generally more likely to take it seriously and respect the rules, etiquette etc.

    I am a Country member at a club up North. I play there when I'm at home the odd time and it allows me to keep my GUI handicap and play in Opens here in Dublin. It's cheap and people can pay and play at any time, even when a club competition is on. The place is run like a business and the management do not enforce rules strictly. If you turn up in jeans and a soccer top (something I don't agree with) you will more than likely be allowed out if you have your green fee to hand. It is widely regarded by members of other clubs in the area that a lot of members here have no respect for rules or etiquette. They are correct and it is something which I've had first hand experience of while playing there. The majority at the club have been playing golf for 10 years or less and have not bothered to learn the rules and etiquette.

    I was lucky enough to learn the game, the rules and the etiquette from my Dad. He taught me well and I'm glad of it now especially when I'm playing at a stricter course where I try to be aware of what's expected. It's just embarrassing for everyone involved when someone is pulled up on a rule that they weren't aware of.

    If I am visiting a club I will respect their rules. As far as I'm concerned the members own the club and whatever they say goes.

    Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf. I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭madds


    And then he said this.....
    stockdam wrote: »
    Unfortunately that seems to be the way of the world and it's not necessarily my opinion........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭slumped


    Can we keep the whole debate friendly?

    Personally I think it is great to see so many more people playing golf now than 20 years ago.


    It doesn't matter what their backgrounds are, everyone who wants to play golf should.

    However - anyone that sets foot on a golf course needs to appreciate the background and tradition of the game also.

    GAA players are only too well aware of all the great past players - Soccer players know all about the Busby Babes and the like. How many of the young new comers to golf will know who Fred Daly was, or Tom Craddock, Joe Carr, Garth McGimpsey - or even Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, Tom Morris etc.

    Are clubs educating their new members - I think not.

    You walk into a club with a real history - say Royal Dublin - and you get a feel for who some of the greats were and their place in Irish golf.

    You walk into some of the smaller (dare I say cheaper) clubs and there's not a shred of history.

    So really what I am saying is that in order for people to understand the etiquette of the game, they need to be educated about the history and traditions of the game also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    rigal wrote: »
    The majority at the club have been playing golf for 10 years or less and have not bothered to learn the rules and etiquette.

    That's the main downside to the surge in popularity of golf in recent years i think. I play at a club in which alot of the members would only have taken up golf in the last decade. The number of them who i'll see breaking simple rules or disregarding etiquette is incredible.

    I generally find its people who have taken up the game post 18 years of age that are the main culprits too. If you play the game as a kid i think you generally have a better understanding of what it's all about.

    Back home, every club member is given a rules book each time it is renewed. Is this the same in Ireland?

    The idea of a theory test is an interesting one. Either that or an information hour before the start of a new season for all new members. i.e. you can't play in competitions or have your handicap secured fully until you've been to one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Hobart


    slumped wrote: »
    However - anyone that sets foot on a golf course needs to appreciate the background and tradition of the game also.
    Why? Why should one be aware or appreciate the tradition of the game? Should we go back to using sticks and cotton filled balls, or should we wake up and move with the times. All things evolve, ask any player of any competitive sport. GAA players are now being paid to play, soccer players are using technology to the nth degree to increase power and accuracy. How many players do we see playing for ManU having a fag and cup of tea at half time? How many F1 drivers do you see quaffing champagne before they race off at 200mph?

    I see no logical reason why one should appreciate the background of golf at all. Obey the rules, yes. Know the rules, yes. But don't get caught up in the snobbery and begrudgery of times past. Would we like to see a return to "men only" clubs? I think not.
    GAA players are only too well aware of all the great past players - Soccer players know all about the Busby Babes and the like. How many of the young new comers to golf will know who Fred Daly was, or Tom Craddock, Joe Carr, Garth McGimpsey - or even Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, Tom Morris etc.
    I do, but who actually cares? If I'm lining up a put for birdie on the index 1, do I think of Tom Watson?
    Are clubs educating their new members - I think not.
    Educating them to what end? Why should it be incumbent on a club to educate anybody? My club runs a youth scheme, my 7yo takes part in it. My club has rules for dress code. That's all the education I need and expect from them tbh.
    You walk into a club with a real history - say Royal Dublin - and you get a feel for who some of the greats were and their place in Irish golf.
    Eh? Are you talking about ambience? I've played Royal Dublin a number of times. It's a great course, no more no less imo.
    You walk into some of the smaller (dare I say cheaper) clubs and there's not a shred of history.
    How does this affect your game or how does it affect the standards of etiquette on the course?
    So really what I am saying is that in order for people to understand the etiquette of the game, they need to be educated about the history and traditions of the game also.
    I'd like to see some evidence to back this up, because I simply cannot see how you would make the quantum leap from history - etiquette. Are you suggesting that because, to use your example, Royal Dublin has some sense of history or tradition that by default, they educate their members better and, again by default, etiquette is better observed and practised by their members?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 670 ✭✭✭Stealdo


    I have a question for those of you who would play in a lot of competitions (I don't besides society comps that have a very friendly atmosphere <-- read a lot is overlooked so long as it doesn't impact anyone else).
    Have you noticed that the drop in etiquette has crossed over into club competitions as well? If so is it only opens or is it members in their own club comps too?

    The reason for asking is just to get a better understanding of the problem. I would have thought that this was mainly a question of green fee players like myself not being as up with things as much as regular comp players.

    I'd have to row in with people saying that there's an argument for not having a four ball made up of newcomers. When I first started playing I understood certain things that were obvious to me, or that had been told to me like not walking on someone's line, repairing pitch marks, raking bunkers (and leaving the rake in a sensible position afterwards), maintaining silence etc, but there are other things that are not so immediately intuitive. During my first few months I was regularly called up by my partners for standing in positions that cast a shadow on someone's putting line, for not being sensible when it comes to speeding up your play (e.g. leaving your clubs on one side of the green and heading off to the other with a wedge to chip and then having to cross back over to retrieve your putter instead of having brought it). There are certain things that only come with playing with more experienced players even for people who fully intend to respect the course/others.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    ziggy wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.



    As was pointed out later I think you've not understood what I meant.......sorry.


    I wasn't having a swipe at the "working class".......I never mentioned class. It was aimed at those people who seem to have no respect whatsoever at the tradition of the game and etiquette. The last time I saw an example I must admit that it just ruined the game for me. We were behind a 4 ball who were all dressed in football tops (nothing really wrong with that in a way) but they played with utter disrespect. They were drunk and shouting and swearing loudly (doesn't sound too bad but they were very loud). They were also playing really slowly and wouldn't let us through. They didn't rake the bunkers and they left the flags out when they finished.....they were literally hacking up the course. We skipped by them as it was obvious they didn't know to let us through (the course was almost empty). A few holes later I hit a ball out into the short rough but I could see the ball from the tee. They were playing on an adjacent hole and one of them was close to my ball. When I got to where my ball was I couldn't find it.......I guess the guy lifted it.

    I don't have a problem with beginners etc. but these guys needed some basic etiquette. I would suggest that they wouldn't be on a dearer course....the course was the cheapest one I've played on in years and I won't be back. Obviously the vast majority of people on it were great........it was just this one fourball that spoiled it.

    On another occassion on another course; we started on the 10th hole as the first tee was bunged. There was nobody on the 9th when we started. On the 12th hole a two ball came off the 10th green and came over. He started swearing and ranting at us for cutting in............note that we hadn't held them up but he was intend on starting a fight.

    That's the sort of ill-mannered person that I'm referring too...........bad manners and no respect for the game.

    I agree 100% with your comment about manners and that's what it boils down to. In my opinion you get less problems on the dearer courses and that same statement is true for restaurants, bars and holiday resorts.

    I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I meant and it certainly has nothing to do with class or money.

    I was taught by my dad to repair my pitch marks (and any others I found), to rake the bunkers, to replace divots and to have manners. I dislike going to courses where those basics aren't in evidence (even if it's the small minority.....if I pay my money then I expect a certain standard from others otherwise I'll go elsewhere).

    Obviously you could argue that etiquette is a load of nonsense but to me it boils down to respect for those around you and to the greenkeepers who prepare the course.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭slumped


    Hobart wrote: »
    Why? Why should one be aware or appreciate the tradition of the game? Should we go back to using sticks and cotton filled balls, or should we wake up and move with the times. All things evolve, ask any player of any competitive sport. GAA players are now being paid to play, soccer players are using technology to the nth degree to increase power and accuracy. How many players do we see playing for ManU having a fag and cup of tea at half time? How many F1 drivers do you see quaffing champagne before they race off at 200mph?

    An understanding to the background of something ultimatley helps you to appreciate it on a different level.

    Take a piece of music like Bloody Sunday by U2. Someone who know nothing about the events of Bloody Sunday and hears this song will not have a true appreciation for it.

    The same applies to golf - If I don't know the rules for example-or haven't a clue about who the greats in the game are/were then I cannot appreciate it to its fullest.

    Hobart wrote: »
    I see no logical reason why one should appreciate the background of golf at all. Obey the rules, yes. Know the rules, yes. But don't get caught up in the snobbery and begrudgery of times past. Would we like to see a return to "men only" clubs? I think not.

    What's snobbish about knowing about the great players of the past? What begrudgery are you referring to?
    Hobart wrote: »
    Educating them to what end? Why should it be incumbent on a club to educate anybody? My club runs a youth scheme, my 7yo takes part in it. My club has rules for dress code. That's all the education I need and expect from them tbh.

    And your 7 year old will be all the better for it. Junior Golf Ireland and the like do excellent work in this regard. I am talking about the 20 something year old that has not had this opportunity.
    Hobart wrote: »
    Eh? Are you talking about ambience? I've played Royal Dublin a number of times. It's a great course, no more no less imo.
    How does this affect your game or how does it affect the standards of etiquette on the course?

    I was referring to the old photos etc. that if you take time to look at and read the captions you get a feel for what the game was like.


  • Subscribers Posts: 16,745 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    Interesting thread, I think I disagree strongly with what some people consider etiquette based on some of the above. I don't really have a problem with how people dress or if they are a bit noisy. It may be annoying but it's not that big an issue for me.

    My worst experiences at golf clubs have been at the hands of 'proper' golfers at some of the bigger clubs. Refusing to let people through, being asked 'are you a member' on the first tee as if it affected your rights on the course, not shouting fore etc have all happened to me at some of the top clubs in Ireland by older 'proper' golfers who obviously considered themselves above everyone else on the course.

    Not letting people through in particular is rampant at any 'proper' members club. In my opinion it is the members of these clubs who need to get there house in order rather than worrying about what people wear.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Hobart wrote: »
    Why? Why should one be aware or appreciate the tradition of the game? Should we go back to using sticks and cotton filled balls, or should we wake up and move with the times. All things evolve, ask any player of any competitive sport. GAA players are now being paid to play, soccer players are using technology to the nth degree to increase power and accuracy. How many players do we see playing for ManU having a fag and cup of tea at half time? How many F1 drivers do you see quaffing champagne before they race off at 200mph?

    I see no logical reason why one should appreciate the background of golf at all. Obey the rules, yes. Know the rules, yes. But don't get caught up in the snobbery and begrudgery of times past. Would we like to see a return to "men only" clubs? I think not.

    I agree with Hobbart that some historic awareness of golf is more or less irrelevent to ettiquette and behaviour of new golfers.

    But as for traditions, Hobbart you're being selective in the "traditions" you mention in golf and other sports. You can't argue with the one you mention above but the traddional points of ettiquette which the thread began discussing are a different kettle of fish.

    What about dragging your trailing leg into an opponent to warrant a foul in soccer? Should this just be accepted as a modern development in the game- it's not against the rules...

    Would you say we shouldn't try and keep this kind of thing out of GAA football and promote the tradition of honest competitive spirit?

    Rugby teams applauding their defeated opponents off the pitch - not a rule, but a point of ettiquette worth keeping?

    What did you say when Martin Johnson and his team stood on the home team side for the anthems? Sure it's only a silly tradition - he's not breaking any rules of the game?


    Golf is no different to other sports in having keep-safe traditional points of ettiquette. Golf is no different to other sports in so far as it also once had stupid traditions that have been and ar being ironed out over the years.

    But as mentioned in the first post, there are traditions being eroded that many golfers feel are worth keeping. As are the traditions I mention above in other sports worth keeping.


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