Has the popularity of golf reduced the standards of etiquette on the course?

slumped

Golf has seen unprecedented growth in this country over the last 20 odd years.

In 1986 there were 243 golf clubs with 120,000 members, and now there are over 400 with around 250,000 members. (Source: Poster on wall of toilets at GUI Academy!)

Years ago (way back in the early 1900's), golf was a gentleman's game (and ladies of course), where the dress code was always suit, tie and trousers, socks up to the knee. Ladies wore huge dresses and the like.

As time has moved on, more and more people have taken up the game - which is not a bad thing.

But have golf clubs let their standards slip - or is it that golf clubs today will just allow anyone to play as long as they have the Euro in their pocket?

A recent thread (which is now locked) discussed etiquette on the range - but what about etiquette in the golf club, or on the course, or in the bar afterwards?

Since when have blue denim jeans become acceptable on course attire?

When did shouting across the fairway to your playing colleagues become OK?

Does every golfer that takes to the fairways understand the basic rules of golf?

There is a debate to be had here, and it would be interesting to get people's feedback and experience of this.

Maybe you are in a club where none of this happens - if you are then tell us.

If you are in a club that has everyday examples of what I'm talking about then tell us!

I would ask that this does not become a slagging contest.

Slumped

ShriekingSheet

Great post Slumped. I really hope this can be debated in the spirit in which you have presented the subject.

I think we all have to take the simple answer - YES - as a start-point. I don't think there's an argument that dress code and ettiquette standards have shifted downward since the golfing boom began.

But way more importantly, I think the key debate here is whether this is a GOOD or a BAD thing...

Anfield legends

I can fully understand the points being made,I have only started playing golf in the last 2 years & what i expected to see on the course & what i saw on the course are two different things.The image of golf being a "gentlemans" game has long since gone.In my opinion the rise in popularity of golf has lowered the standard of both class & skill to a certain degree (having to play on a course where obstacles are kids running about!)

ShriekingSheet

With my own golf thus far, I have been/am a member of Milltown, Ballinascorney, South County and Courtown golf clubs. A healthy mix of the old order of "snooty" 100 years old+ course, working class hacker-track, country course with class and a lot of green-fees and newly built new-money celtic tiger club. I'll leave it to yourselves to work out which is which

Personally, I think golf needed a new influx to balance it's once too-high standards (IMO). But I think there is also a danger of this going the other way and traditional standards being let slip too much.

Who is responsible for this? I disagree with what seems to be a popular assumption that it's 100% up to new golfers to familiarise themselves with the full details of golfing ettiquette. I think things were as they were in the pre-golf boom days because courses restricted people from playing. Despite the fact that this is verging on racism, the idea that new clubs should ensure new golfers should play with experienced golfers initially to guide them in the rules and standards is a good one IMO. So underneath the surface, "restricting" a fourball of beginners from taking to the course makes sense.

But what happend? Money happened. The golfing industry realised that it was an industry. Clubs now accpet the fourball of beginners once they have x amount of cash.

So my point is, golf has let itself down by focusing on revenue to the detriment of best practice for inducting new golfers.

The old way was that to play a good club you had to be the guest of a member - even if it was your first game you still had someone to guide you.

So yes, I think new comers need to appreciate there are codes of practice on a golf course that are there for hundreds of years but there's also an onus on clubs to uphold these standars but instead, many are purely focused on their bottom line.

copacetic

good thread lads, but lets keep it on an even keel, any talk of 'skangers' or 'D4sies' or whatever the kids are calling it now days will result in a lock and bannings. This isn't after hours.

gaf1983

Very interesting debate this, especially about the rights and wrongs of etiquette being diluted, if this is the case. Similar debate has been going on in my tennis club (has probably been going on for years to be honest) about growing popularity of the game leading to traditions being eroded (i.e. players not wearing whites).

Read an interesting article that addresses some of the points made in this thread in this week's Economist on George Fellows, CEO of Callaway, and if he gets his way golf will become even more popular. He would want that I suppose.

Stealdo

I think it's obvious that there are some positives and some negatives to this, but as others have said the debate is really which outweighs which, or more importantly where is the balance and how do we move from where we are now to that.
To get to that I think people need to look deeper into this to find the root cause. Is it really that the popularity of golf has reduced the standards of etiquette? or would it be more true to say that a reduction in the standards of etiquette has lead to an increase in the popularity of golf?
The introduction of more pay n' play facilities both private and local authority has obviously impacted and these would generally be far from bastions of the R&A rules (and would never have been set up to be). Have these facilities taken a small percentage of golfers away from the clubs that would have been paying big money green fees as non members - forcing the clubs to lower their standards/fees to compete? If not then we need to know why the traditional clubs couldn't co-exist with these facilities if there are really two separate tiers of players looking for different experiences. Maybe these facilities popped up luring more people into the newly accessible game and the clubs saw an opportunity, got greedy and we're now seeing the effects?
There's no doubt that there are improvements from the increase in players, more choice, better value (at least for the newer players to the game, like myself) but even as a newer player I am occasionally (and I must say that it is occasional not every time I play by a long stretch) shocked by some things I see on the course. We won't however have a reasoned debate while we're talking in hysterics as if there's a situation where you can't play a round without some guy ringing his buddy on the other side of the fairway to tell him to pull his 3 year old out of the water hazard and pick up his bucket and spade from the bunker before moving on to the next tee. There are different instances and levels of this that you will get between public authority courses, private pay n' play courses, newer clubs and older clubs. Someone who only say plays the old club in Portmarnock probably wouldn't know what we are talking about, whereas someone who has only ever played in Deer Park probably doesn't see what all the fuss is about. It's those of us who fluctuate between all four that see this, and probably don't give enough consideration to where we're playing (and how much we're paying) when we judge these. The same standards can't really apply.

stockdam

As Stealdo said.....it depends on where you play. In the better clubs there tends to be better behaviour and better dress codes. I have noticed that clubs in N.I. generally don't allow demin whereas it's become acceptable in the rest of Ireland.

On the course, I've very rarely noticed any problems but that's because I don't play on the very cheap courses......waste of money in my opinion because the fairways and especially the greens are useless.

I think the majority of golfers still respect the rules of etiquette.

But the main reason that standards may be dropping is that society itself is dumbing down.

Mister Sifter

stockdam wrote: »

But the main reason that standards may be dropping is that society itself is dumbing down.

Great thread!!

I think you've hit on a good point there stockdam. I was chatting to a guy at the football on Saturday who told me about how the last time he'd been to see this particular team in the semi-final of the cup, virtually the whole of the crowd was in shirt and tie and long coats.

I quite often play the pay-as-you-play courses (mainly because i can get a game on them), but playing them on a saturday or a bank holiday is a nightmare as the condition of the courses drops considerably. Last bank holiday i played a public course late in the day and on one green i repaired 18 pitch marks that had just been left. Obviously the increase in the number of casual golfers is a big factor, especially when you get four of them together in one fourball.

WHIP IT!

stockdam wrote: »

As Stealdo said.....it depends on where you play. In the better clubs there tends to be better behaviour and better dress codes. I have noticed that clubs in N.I. generally don't allow demin whereas it's become acceptable in the rest of Ireland.

On the course, I've very rarely noticed any problems but that's because I don't play on the very cheap courses......waste of money in my opinion because the fairways and especially the greens are useless.

I think the majority of golfers still respect the rules of etiquette.

But the main reason that standards may be dropping is that society itself is dumbing down.

Lads, has it really become acceptable to wear denim?? I have to say I haven't come across it much.

Increasingly coming across greens destroyed in pitch-marks and unraked bunkers alright I must say.

slumped

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Lads, has it really become acceptable to wear denim?? I have to say I haven't come across it much.

Increasingly coming across greens destroyed in pitch-marks and unraked bunkers alright I must say.

There is a particular club in Dublin where I've seen blue denim, tracksuits, soccer jerseys and t-shirts with no collar.

Some clubs obviuosly believe that it is acceptable. The course in question has starters and rangers.

Hobart

slumped wrote: »

There is a particular club in Dublin where I've seen blue denim, tracksuits, soccer jerseys and t-shirts with no collar.

Some clubs obviuosly believe that it is acceptable. The course in question has starters and rangers.

I played in Headford yesterday. I saw 2 people wearing denims on the course. I don't wear denims when playing golf, whether allowed or not. I don't really have an issue with other people wearing denims, or collarless tops either tbh. If the club dress code permits it, I don't see the issue.

Par72

Hobart wrote: »

I played in Headford yesterday. I saw 2 people wearing denims on the course. I don't wear denims when playing golf, whether allowed or not. I don't really have an issue with other people wearing denims, or collarless tops either tbh. If the club dress code permits it, I don't see the issue.

I agree, I couldn't care less what those around me are wearing on the golf course. What harm is it for someone to wear a pair of jeans anyway? My club has a pretty strict dress code and denim etc is not permitted but I don't see the point of it tbh. Certainly when it comes to raking bunkers, repairing pitch marks etc. I think etiquette should be strongly adhered to.

clg23

Im not pushed on what people wear on the course. As long as they respect the course and other players.

ziggy

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stockdam

I brought up the demin thing ......... I don't have any problem with jeans or tops as long as they look clean. I do object to football tops except for kids.

It kinda boils down to snobbery in a way. If you reduce the prices then you will get a certain type of person who doesn't really have a clue (the majority will be decent people but there will be a few who don't have a clue). On the other hand if the prices are high then generally you'll not have as many problems. Unfortunately that seems to be the way of the world and it's not necessarily my opinion........I'd like to see everyone have basic respect and basic etiquette but they need to play with those who have been taught.

Mister Sifter

Might sound weird but i actually think i play better when i'm properly dressed for golf. Maybe cos i'm more in the zone or something.

Don't mind seeing jeans out on the course during practice or whatever but for competitions and stuff it should be a bit smarter.

ziggy

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WHIP IT!

ziggy wrote: »

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To be fair, I don't think he was suggesting that.

ziggy

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rigal

ziggy wrote: »

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I know what Stockdam is saying and IMO he is correct in some ways. It's not snobbery it's a fact of life - Regardless of your background if you pay more money to play golf you are generally more likely to take it seriously and respect the rules, etiquette etc.

I am a Country member at a club up North. I play there when I'm at home the odd time and it allows me to keep my GUI handicap and play in Opens here in Dublin. It's cheap and people can pay and play at any time, even when a club competition is on. The place is run like a business and the management do not enforce rules strictly. If you turn up in jeans and a soccer top (something I don't agree with) you will more than likely be allowed out if you have your green fee to hand. It is widely regarded by members of other clubs in the area that a lot of members here have no respect for rules or etiquette. They are correct and it is something which I've had first hand experience of while playing there. The majority at the club have been playing golf for 10 years or less and have not bothered to learn the rules and etiquette.

I was lucky enough to learn the game, the rules and the etiquette from my Dad. He taught me well and I'm glad of it now especially when I'm playing at a stricter course where I try to be aware of what's expected. It's just embarrassing for everyone involved when someone is pulled up on a rule that they weren't aware of.

If I am visiting a club I will respect their rules. As far as I'm concerned the members own the club and whatever they say goes.

Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf. I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....

madds

And then he said this.....

stockdam wrote: »

Unfortunately that seems to be the way of the world and it's not necessarily my opinion........

ziggy

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slumped

Can we keep the whole debate friendly?

Personally I think it is great to see so many more people playing golf now than 20 years ago.


It doesn't matter what their backgrounds are, everyone who wants to play golf should.

However - anyone that sets foot on a golf course needs to appreciate the background and tradition of the game also.

GAA players are only too well aware of all the great past players - Soccer players know all about the Busby Babes and the like. How many of the young new comers to golf will know who Fred Daly was, or Tom Craddock, Joe Carr, Garth McGimpsey - or even Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, Tom Morris etc.

Are clubs educating their new members - I think not.

You walk into a club with a real history - say Royal Dublin - and you get a feel for who some of the greats were and their place in Irish golf.

You walk into some of the smaller (dare I say cheaper) clubs and there's not a shred of history.

So really what I am saying is that in order for people to understand the etiquette of the game, they need to be educated about the history and traditions of the game also.

Mister Sifter

rigal wrote: »

The majority at the club have been playing golf for 10 years or less and have not bothered to learn the rules and etiquette.

That's the main downside to the surge in popularity of golf in recent years i think. I play at a club in which alot of the members would only have taken up golf in the last decade. The number of them who i'll see breaking simple rules or disregarding etiquette is incredible.

I generally find its people who have taken up the game post 18 years of age that are the main culprits too. If you play the game as a kid i think you generally have a better understanding of what it's all about.

Back home, every club member is given a rules book each time it is renewed. Is this the same in Ireland?

The idea of a theory test is an interesting one. Either that or an information hour before the start of a new season for all new members. i.e. you can't play in competitions or have your handicap secured fully until you've been to one.

Hobart

slumped wrote: »

However - anyone that sets foot on a golf course needs to appreciate the background and tradition of the game also.

Why? Why should one be aware or appreciate the tradition of the game? Should we go back to using sticks and cotton filled balls, or should we wake up and move with the times. All things evolve, ask any player of any competitive sport. GAA players are now being paid to play, soccer players are using technology to the nth degree to increase power and accuracy. How many players do we see playing for ManU having a fag and cup of tea at half time? How many F1 drivers do you see quaffing champagne before they race off at 200mph?

I see no logical reason why one should appreciate the background of golf at all. Obey the rules, yes. Know the rules, yes. But don't get caught up in the snobbery and begrudgery of times past. Would we like to see a return to "men only" clubs? I think not.

GAA players are only too well aware of all the great past players - Soccer players know all about the Busby Babes and the like. How many of the young new comers to golf will know who Fred Daly was, or Tom Craddock, Joe Carr, Garth McGimpsey - or even Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, Tom Morris etc.

I do, but who actually cares? If I'm lining up a put for birdie on the index 1, do I think of Tom Watson?

Are clubs educating their new members - I think not.

Educating them to what end? Why should it be incumbent on a club to educate anybody? My club runs a youth scheme, my 7yo takes part in it. My club has rules for dress code. That's all the education I need and expect from them tbh.

You walk into a club with a real history - say Royal Dublin - and you get a feel for who some of the greats were and their place in Irish golf.

Eh? Are you talking about ambience? I've played Royal Dublin a number of times. It's a great course, no more no less imo.

You walk into some of the smaller (dare I say cheaper) clubs and there's not a shred of history.

How does this affect your game or how does it affect the standards of etiquette on the course?

So really what I am saying is that in order for people to understand the etiquette of the game, they need to be educated about the history and traditions of the game also.

I'd like to see some evidence to back this up, because I simply cannot see how you would make the quantum leap from history - etiquette. Are you suggesting that because, to use your example, Royal Dublin has some sense of history or tradition that by default, they educate their members better and, again by default, etiquette is better observed and practised by their members?

Stealdo

I have a question for those of you who would play in a lot of competitions (I don't besides society comps that have a very friendly atmosphere <-- read a lot is overlooked so long as it doesn't impact anyone else).
Have you noticed that the drop in etiquette has crossed over into club competitions as well? If so is it only opens or is it members in their own club comps too?

The reason for asking is just to get a better understanding of the problem. I would have thought that this was mainly a question of green fee players like myself not being as up with things as much as regular comp players.

I'd have to row in with people saying that there's an argument for not having a four ball made up of newcomers. When I first started playing I understood certain things that were obvious to me, or that had been told to me like not walking on someone's line, repairing pitch marks, raking bunkers (and leaving the rake in a sensible position afterwards), maintaining silence etc, but there are other things that are not so immediately intuitive. During my first few months I was regularly called up by my partners for standing in positions that cast a shadow on someone's putting line, for not being sensible when it comes to speeding up your play (e.g. leaving your clubs on one side of the green and heading off to the other with a wedge to chip and then having to cross back over to retrieve your putter instead of having brought it). There are certain things that only come with playing with more experienced players even for people who fully intend to respect the course/others.

stockdam

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As was pointed out later I think you've not understood what I meant.......sorry.


I wasn't having a swipe at the "working class".......I never mentioned class. It was aimed at those people who seem to have no respect whatsoever at the tradition of the game and etiquette. The last time I saw an example I must admit that it just ruined the game for me. We were behind a 4 ball who were all dressed in football tops (nothing really wrong with that in a way) but they played with utter disrespect. They were drunk and shouting and swearing loudly (doesn't sound too bad but they were very loud). They were also playing really slowly and wouldn't let us through. They didn't rake the bunkers and they left the flags out when they finished.....they were literally hacking up the course. We skipped by them as it was obvious they didn't know to let us through (the course was almost empty). A few holes later I hit a ball out into the short rough but I could see the ball from the tee. They were playing on an adjacent hole and one of them was close to my ball. When I got to where my ball was I couldn't find it.......I guess the guy lifted it.

I don't have a problem with beginners etc. but these guys needed some basic etiquette. I would suggest that they wouldn't be on a dearer course....the course was the cheapest one I've played on in years and I won't be back. Obviously the vast majority of people on it were great........it was just this one fourball that spoiled it.

On another occassion on another course; we started on the 10th hole as the first tee was bunged. There was nobody on the 9th when we started. On the 12th hole a two ball came off the 10th green and came over. He started swearing and ranting at us for cutting in............note that we hadn't held them up but he was intend on starting a fight.

That's the sort of ill-mannered person that I'm referring too...........bad manners and no respect for the game.

I agree 100% with your comment about manners and that's what it boils down to. In my opinion you get less problems on the dearer courses and that same statement is true for restaurants, bars and holiday resorts.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I meant and it certainly has nothing to do with class or money.

I was taught by my dad to repair my pitch marks (and any others I found), to rake the bunkers, to replace divots and to have manners. I dislike going to courses where those basics aren't in evidence (even if it's the small minority.....if I pay my money then I expect a certain standard from others otherwise I'll go elsewhere).

Obviously you could argue that etiquette is a load of nonsense but to me it boils down to respect for those around you and to the greenkeepers who prepare the course.

slumped

Hobart wrote: »

Why? Why should one be aware or appreciate the tradition of the game? Should we go back to using sticks and cotton filled balls, or should we wake up and move with the times. All things evolve, ask any player of any competitive sport. GAA players are now being paid to play, soccer players are using technology to the nth degree to increase power and accuracy. How many players do we see playing for ManU having a fag and cup of tea at half time? How many F1 drivers do you see quaffing champagne before they race off at 200mph?

An understanding to the background of something ultimatley helps you to appreciate it on a different level.

Take a piece of music like Bloody Sunday by U2. Someone who know nothing about the events of Bloody Sunday and hears this song will not have a true appreciation for it.

The same applies to golf - If I don't know the rules for example-or haven't a clue about who the greats in the game are/were then I cannot appreciate it to its fullest.

Hobart wrote: »

I see no logical reason why one should appreciate the background of golf at all. Obey the rules, yes. Know the rules, yes. But don't get caught up in the snobbery and begrudgery of times past. Would we like to see a return to "men only" clubs? I think not.

What's snobbish about knowing about the great players of the past? What begrudgery are you referring to?

Hobart wrote: »

Educating them to what end? Why should it be incumbent on a club to educate anybody? My club runs a youth scheme, my 7yo takes part in it. My club has rules for dress code. That's all the education I need and expect from them tbh.

And your 7 year old will be all the better for it. Junior Golf Ireland and the like do excellent work in this regard. I am talking about the 20 something year old that has not had this opportunity.

Hobart wrote: »

Eh? Are you talking about ambience? I've played Royal Dublin a number of times. It's a great course, no more no less imo.
How does this affect your game or how does it affect the standards of etiquette on the course?

I was referring to the old photos etc. that if you take time to look at and read the captions you get a feel for what the game was like.

copacetic

Interesting thread, I think I disagree strongly with what some people consider etiquette based on some of the above. I don't really have a problem with how people dress or if they are a bit noisy. It may be annoying but it's not that big an issue for me.

My worst experiences at golf clubs have been at the hands of 'proper' golfers at some of the bigger clubs. Refusing to let people through, being asked 'are you a member' on the first tee as if it affected your rights on the course, not shouting fore etc have all happened to me at some of the top clubs in Ireland by older 'proper' golfers who obviously considered themselves above everyone else on the course.

Not letting people through in particular is rampant at any 'proper' members club. In my opinion it is the members of these clubs who need to get there house in order rather than worrying about what people wear.

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

Why? Why should one be aware or appreciate the tradition of the game? Should we go back to using sticks and cotton filled balls, or should we wake up and move with the times. All things evolve, ask any player of any competitive sport. GAA players are now being paid to play, soccer players are using technology to the nth degree to increase power and accuracy. How many players do we see playing for ManU having a fag and cup of tea at half time? How many F1 drivers do you see quaffing champagne before they race off at 200mph?

I see no logical reason why one should appreciate the background of golf at all. Obey the rules, yes. Know the rules, yes. But don't get caught up in the snobbery and begrudgery of times past. Would we like to see a return to "men only" clubs? I think not.

I agree with Hobbart that some historic awareness of golf is more or less irrelevent to ettiquette and behaviour of new golfers.

But as for traditions, Hobbart you're being selective in the "traditions" you mention in golf and other sports. You can't argue with the one you mention above but the traddional points of ettiquette which the thread began discussing are a different kettle of fish.

What about dragging your trailing leg into an opponent to warrant a foul in soccer? Should this just be accepted as a modern development in the game- it's not against the rules...

Would you say we shouldn't try and keep this kind of thing out of GAA football and promote the tradition of honest competitive spirit?

Rugby teams applauding their defeated opponents off the pitch - not a rule, but a point of ettiquette worth keeping?

What did you say when Martin Johnson and his team stood on the home team side for the anthems? Sure it's only a silly tradition - he's not breaking any rules of the game?


Golf is no different to other sports in having keep-safe traditional points of ettiquette. Golf is no different to other sports in so far as it also once had stupid traditions that have been and ar being ironed out over the years.

But as mentioned in the first post, there are traditions being eroded that many golfers feel are worth keeping. As are the traditions I mention above in other sports worth keeping.

slumped

Just to reiterate and clarify


Anyone can appreciate the game of golf - but on different levels.

However a true and meaningful understanding can only be achieved by being aware of the history and traditions of the game.

ShriekingSheet

copacetic wrote: »

Interesting thread, I think I disagree strongly with what some people consider etiquette based on some of the above. I don't really have a problem with how people dress or if they are a bit noisy. It may be annoying but it's not that big an issue for me.

That's fine, but I think you'll agree that just because you don't have a problem with noise and dress code, that doesn't mean the game should change accordingly?

clg23

Theory tests on the history and etiquette of golf before you are allowed play?? People will get interested in golf and its history after playing a few rounds and getting into it. You are going to put off thousands of young people if you were to impose anything like this.

The only thing (in my opinion) people should be aware of before playing is rake bunkers, replace divots, shout fore, keep up with the group in front etc.

ShriekingSheet

copacetic wrote: »

My worst experiences at golf clubs have been at the hands of 'proper' golfers at some of the bigger clubs.

Yep.

While I'm on the side of "respect the game and it's quirky tradition and ettiquette" I agree with you here and have said before.

The rules, ettiquette and traditions are given a bad name by ass-holes like you have encountered who enforce them rudely and on a power trip, rather than to help a golfer on their way to learning the game.

These guys are rampant and taint people like mine's point of view. I can oly stress that it's not WHAT THE RULES ARE is the problem, it's HOW they're enforced by these idiots.

I've had my grandad and older friends of the family steer me in the right direction on rules and ettiquette. And I've also been shouted at, had letters sent to the committee and been called up infront of the club officials to be suspended from the club.

So trust me, I've seen both sides.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I agree with Hobbart that some historic awareness of golf is more or less irrelevent to ettiquette and behaviour of new golfers.

But as for traditions, Hobbart you're being selective in the "traditions" you mention in golf and other sports. You can't argue with the one you mention above but the traddional points of ettiquette which the thread began discussing are a different kettle of fish.

What about dragging your trailing leg into an opponent to warrant a foul in soccer? Should this just be accepted as a modern development in the game- it's not against the rules...

Would you say we shouldn't try and keep this kind of thing out of GAA football and promote the tradition of honest competitive spirit?

Rugby teams applauding their defeated opponents off the pitch - not a rule, but a point of ettiquette worth keeping?

What did you say when Martin Johnson and his team stood on the home team side for the anthems? Sure it's only a silly tradition - he's not breaking any rules of the game?


Golf is no different to other sports in having keep-safe traditional points of ettiquette. Golf is no different to other sports in so far as it also once had stupid traditions that have been and ar being ironed out over the years.

But as mentioned in the first post, there are traditions being eroded that many golfers feel are worth keeping. As are the traditions I mention above in other sports worth keeping.

I could not agree more with what you are saying, in fact you put it more eloquently than I could.

I simply cannot see the correlation between tradition and etiquette.

I simply do not believe that it is incumbent on a club to educate golfers, in any traditions.

I have seen terrible forms of etiquette from the K-Club to Elm Green (it is not my intention to cast aspertions on Elm Green) from both young and old members and non-members.

It is all too easy to blur the lines between snobbery and tradition, while neither has anything to do with etiquette (the point of this thread!!!).

The fact that Royal Dublin appears to have some "history" does not preclude it from having members who have no idea how to play golf in a manner in which it should be played, in fact, I don't see how it's sense of history would have any impact on a golfers game, good or bad.

Golf, by it's nature, is a singular game played in a group. It is up to each and every individual to behave in the manner in which he would like to see other members behaving. If the club allows denis on the course, and the individual is comfortable in those denis, whats the issue? Will it affect my game? No. Is it even bad etiquette? Not in that club.

I have had occasion to ask for clarification on a rule to my golfing partner. Was I practising bad etiquette by not knowing or being unsure of that particular rule? I don't think so. Was my club in some way to blame for it's failure to educate me on this rule? I don't think so.

Etiquette, like the game, is an individualistic trait. It is up to the individual, not the club, not the course, to behave in a manner befitting the game, no matter what year or club you are playing in.

slumped

To me the most important parts of etiquette are (these are things EVERY golf SHOULD have)

- know the basic rules
- respect those playing with you and around you
- rake bunkers
- replace divots
- replace flag
- repair pitch marks
- refrain from shouting


It would be desirable that everyone

- dressed appropriatley
- had an in depth knowledge of the rules
- knew a little about the history of the game

S

copacetic

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

That's fine, but I think you'll agree that just because you don't have a problem with noise and dress code, that doesn't mean the game should change accordingly?

well golfs dress code has changed significantly over the years, and is changing pretty much every year. Acceptable golf clothing is much different now that it was in the past.

I'm not sure that such things are 'part of the game'. I really meant that for me at least these issues are incidental to how you actually act and respect others on the course.

rigal

clg23 wrote: »

Theory tests on the history and etiquette of golf before you are allowed play?? People will get interested in golf and its history after playing a few rounds and getting into it. You are going to put off thousands of young people if you were to impose anything like this.

The only thing (in my opinion) people should be aware of before playing is rake bunkers, replace divots, shout fore, keep up with the group in front etc.

Presume you are referring to my suggestion clg23 re. Theory tests?

I made no reference to the history of golf or theory tests for beginners (GUI Applicants only) in my post. Please re read below:

Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf. I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....

Hobart

rigal wrote: »

Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf.

I think that there has to be some criteria for awarding handicaps. What would you suggest as an alternative?

I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....[/I]

I would be very interested in how this test would be formulated. How would the test encompass the masses of local rules? What about the different dress codes in each club? If I was to pass the "etiquette" test in one club, would I have to re-sit it in another if they had a different code of etiquette?

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

I could not agree more with what you are saying, in fact you put it more eloquently than I could.

I simply do not believe that it is incumbent on a club to educate golfers, in any traditions.

I have seen terrible forms of etiquette from the K-Club to Elm Green (it is not my intention to cast aspertions on Elm Green) from both young and old members and non-members.

Terrible forms of etiquette from K-Club to Elm Green = Exactly the point of the topic. Etiquette in golf is deteriorating. It's on the decline and that's clear to all - it doesn't matter where in particular and in fact, as you've pointed out, it's actually declining everywhere.

The points of argument I'd like to hear your thoughts on are...

1. Should we simply accept these "terrible forms of ettiquette" as new developments in the game?

2. If not, how could the slide possibly be turned around? You're active in one possible solution by involving your kid in the club as you said. But with older guys new to the game?

I don't think we can agree on (nor is it worth continuing the argument on) what constitutes terrible form of ettiquette. But setting that discussion aside we can still debate the above.

3. And thirdly, you say the club has no role in educating golfers in any traditions (eg: ettiqutte). But I say the club has a responsibility here which it has shirked recently. What I'm refering to is the fact that clubs are allowing things like dress code slide rather than turn down a green fee from a guy in a 'pool jersey. Golf clubs have become more and more focused on money and as a direct result are allowing breaches of ettiquette. So no, they don't have to teach classes in ettiquette but I think yes, they have played a role in the slide and could equally play a role in restoring the likes of dress code if they could bring themselves to turn down the odd green fee.

rigal

I think this discussion can be condensed somewhat.

IMO The answer to the OP's question is a resounding YES.

It's not about snobbery, it's about respect for others and for the game.

People out there need to realise that while golf is a sport it is also a social activity. In this way it cannot be compared to GAA, Soccer or Rugby. A lot of people just play as a way to relax and spend time with their mates and are not really worried about shooting a decent score. When other golfers disrupt their round or a competitive player's round because of a lack of knowledge on etiquette etc it becomes a problem.

No matter what level of golfer you are, if you have played on just some of the many courses around the country it is apparent that some golfers don't give a toss about others on the course or the rules/etiquette of the game. This is fact.

The question is then what can we do about it? Something I think the GUI should be answering.

slumped

rigal wrote: »

Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf. I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....

The only thing is that the GUI don't award handicaps - the clubs do and this brings me back to my oringial point.

Are clubs just allowing ANYONE join - is it all about the Euro now??

ShriekingSheet

copacetic wrote: »

well golfs dress code has changed significantly over the years, and is changing pretty much every year. Acceptable golf clothing is much different now that it was in the past.

I'm not sure that such things are 'part of the game'. I really meant that for me at least these issues are incidental to how you actually act and respect others on the course.

Your second point - yes I fully understood your post and your passive stance to dress code as opposed to safety points or slow play- that's cool.

But your first point - think about it - it just ain't true? The cut of trousers or size of colors may change with trends but the basic design of trousers, color and jumper has been so since colour TV.

But it's less a point of what the clothes are, it's more a case of golf attire being different to what you'd wear to a gig or a football match. I use the example of amateur soccer if you've ever seen a match in the Leinster Senior League maybe. If one guy wears Man Utd shorts the whole team just look like rag-ball rovers.

rigal

Hobart wrote: »

I think that there has to be some criteria for awarding handicaps. What would you suggest as an alternative?


I would be very interested in how this test would be formulated. How would the test encompass the masses of local rules? What about the different dress codes in each club? If I was to pass the "etiquette" test in one club, would I have to re-sit it in another if they had a different code of etiquette?

I agree. I think the actual handicap of a player should be calculated on the existing basis. i.e. three marked cards. But I think the handicap should only be awarded to that player when the theory test has been passed.


I would imagine that the test could cover three sections e.g:

- Section 1 - Etiquette - these questions could be set by the GUI

- Section 2 - The rules of Golf - also set by the GUI

- Section 3 - Local rules (to include any specific etiquette/golf rules)- set at the discretion of the player's club and to be agreed with the GUI. This section could be resit at any new clubs that a player may join.

clg23

slumped wrote: »

Are clubs just allowing ANYONE join - is it all about the Euro now??

Clubs are being forced to find the money from somewhere. Clubs are getting rid of joining fees and taking green fees where they can be got as the traditional incomes from the bar in the clubhouses are down in recent years. People are more likely these days to finish their round change the golf shoes at the boot of the car and head off home.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Terrible forms of etiquette from K-Club to Elm Green = Exactly the point of the topic. Etiquette in golf is deteriorating. It's on the decline and that's clear to all - it doesn't matter where in particular and in fact, as you've pointed out, it's actually declining everywhere.

The points of argument I'd like to hear your thoughts on are...

1. Should we simply accept these "terrible forms of ettiquette" as new developments in the game?

New? I have been playing golf for 20 years. I suppose to be exact I would like you to clarify what you mean by new. Are they recent developments, no. I have seen bad forms of etiquette over the years. No more or no less recently.

2. If not, how could the slide possibly be turned around? You're active in one possible solution by involving your kid in the club as you said. But with older guys new to the game?

Assuming that there is a slide, you address each at (for example) an AGM. Currently we have a poll on our website asking should we allow denims in the club house.

But I don't really believe that there has been a slide. Take my example above, wrt denims. The dress code is very clear in our club, you are asked not to wear denims on the course, oif you do, you are asked to leave. that is and always has been the rule.

I don't think we can agree on (nor is it worth continuing the argument on) what constitutes terrible form of ettiquette. But setting that discussion aside we can still debate the above.

3. And thirdly, you say the club has no role in educating golfers in any traditions (eg: ettiqutte). But I say the club has a responsibility here which it has shirked recently. What I'm refering to is the fact that clubs are allowing things like dress code slide rather than turn down a green fee from a guy in a 'pool jersey. Golf clubs have become more and more focused on money and as a direct result are allowing breaches of ettiquette. So no, they don't have to teach classes in ettiquette but I think yes, they have played a role in the slide and could equally play a role in restoring the likes of dress code if they could bring themselves to turn down the odd green fee.

I have seen no evidence of this. Firstly, and lets be practical about this, the green fees are normally paid in the pro shop. The pro has a responsibilty, as does the starter, to inform the prospective player of the dress code, local rules in place, tee pegs etc.... That is not the clubs role. the clubs role is to agree a set of rules by which the game should be played on the course. It is each and every individuals role, to ensure that these rules are obeyed and observed.

If you honestly believe that a club would allow somebody to play in a manner not befitting the rules of the club, because of the clubs "desperation" to secure green fee's, well then, it kinda negates the whole issue of "poularity" being the cause of a drop in standards. surely this popularity would have the opposite effect? If the popularity of the game is a factor, a club should have no issue with turning down green fees.

As a singular point, what is your issue with dress code? Why, does the way somebody else dress have an effect on you?

copacetic

slumped wrote: »

Are clubs just allowing ANYONE join - is it all about the Euro now??

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but this stinks of the worst kind of snobbery? What do you mean by 'ANYONE'?

copacetic

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

But your first point - think about it - it just ain't true? The cut of trousers or size of colors may change with trends but the basic design of trousers, color and jumper has been so since colour TV.

I disagree, jacket and tie on the course would have been required in the past. Short sleeves would have seen you thrown off. 10 years ago no collar would have seen you thrown off the course. Now mock neck shirts and shorts are allowed in a lot of clubs.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

rigal

copacetic wrote: »

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but this stinks of the worst kind of snobbery? What do you mean by 'ANYONE'?

I don't think that's snobbery. Clubs just can't open their doors to everyone. There needs to be some form of application/selection process.