The most comprehensive test of a club side?

Pigman II · 10-04-2008 07:25PM

smemon wrote: »

Much like Greece de-valued the Euro's and this years winners of the FA Cup will de-value that.

Eh? If anything it was one of the greatest things I've witnessed ever in football. Even better than Demark winning it in 92. Greece deservedly won that competition. They were better organised and smarter than the other teams they played against and should be applauded for their achievement not written off as some fluke or insult to the game.

Also unlike say Liverpool/Chelsea in the FA cup this year it wasn't as tho the so called "deserving" teams at Euro2004 such as France, CzechRep or Portugal didn't want the trophy or sent scratch teams to the finals. They wanted it but just weren't good enough to beat a team that had each of their respective numbers.

Seeing Greece makes fools of of these prima-donnas gives me hope that one day a small country like Ireland can also win a trophy of that calibre.

LuckyLloyd · 10-04-2008 07:29PM

Consistency? Liverpool have played 54 champions league games since August 2004 and have reached two finals; a second round; with a semi - final and further progression in the tournament yet to come. Is that not consistent?

EDIT: Great post Pigman II

shane86 · 10-04-2008 07:33PM

PL v CL. Its all a bit like saying FIFA rankings are more important/exciting than the WC or the Euros. After all, to win the WC you have to "only" win 5 matches in a row. A bit of luck can mean a single win and two draws see you through to the last 16. To stay high in the FIFA rankings you have to be 100% on top of your game year round, including friendlies iirc.

CL is simply more exciting than the PL. Away goals, penalty shoot outs, banging out results 1000 miles from home in stadia with 1000 away fans and 60,000 insane local ultras in attendance, the fact that, often unlike the PL, every single game counts. Name a PL game this year that was as tense, as exciting and had as much hinging on it as Arsenal v Liverpool on Tuesday (bar maybe Man C v Utd, for bragging rights

) Every football fan in Europe knows who won the 2005 CL- who the **** abroad knows or cares who won the 2001 EPL?

Trizo · 10-04-2008 07:38PM

The thing about cup competitions is that on any given day any team can win.
That’s why people love cup competitions so much because generally the league is predictable within reason.
We can see that with the FA cup this year what odds would you have gotten on that final??
The reason the league is the true best indicator is because you have to do it week in week out.
Added to this you have the poor decisions which can make or break a cup run
in the league these tend to even themselves out over the season.

Cup competitions have been devalued in the past few years but a cup is a cup who would say no to winning one?

Tusky · 10-04-2008 07:40PM

jasonorr wrote: »

Because if the big decisions were correctly made over the tie, Arsenal would be through! I don't think anybody can argue that, but at the same time...maybe it's better that Liverpool went through because I don't think Arsenal can handle many more games, their squad isn't strong enough!

Basically, I have no problem with a team not playing well and grinding out a result, but "it really grinds my gears" when there is a direct link to their place in the semi finals and bad refereeing decisions! Let's face it, if Arsenal were given the penlty they deserved in the first leg, it would have completely changed the tie and I think they would have went through and who can debate that the penalty Liverpool got was clearly much softer?

Anyway, I'm not trying to "grind anybody elses gears", but I'm sure it won't sit well with a few people, so sorry about that!

Anyway, back on topic...sorry! I personally feel, the biggest test for a club side is the league, however I still feel the Champions League is a great competition and well worth winning, I'd rate it as a close second to the league and some teams might even want it more than the league (United, Chelsea come to mind) but, this is probably due to the fact that they have won the league recently enough!

What about the blatant handball in the first leg which should have resulted in a Liverpool penalty ?

oobydooby · 10-04-2008 07:59PM

The CL is the toughest to win, I agree with the OP. Consistency wins leagues and all the entrants are consistent by default (some maybe much more than others). As a Liverpool fan I would love to win the English league because it's been so long since we won it. But I still think the CL is the bigger competition. Only an opinion, not a dig.

Also, in england I can name Liverpool 77 and 84 and Manchester United in 99 who won both their domestic leagues and the European Cup in the same year. Leaping to mind are the Lisbon Lions and Barca in 2006. Porto 2004. I would really not be sure who won domestic leagues across Europe even over the last 10-20 years but I'd know who won the European cups those years.

Ask Derry City whether their domestic league or the European Cup is the bigger challenge!

FatherTed · 10-04-2008 08:20PM

Great. Another thread that has turned into a Liverpool vs Man Utd slag fest.

Liverpool are better at the CL than Man Utd. Man Utd are better in the Prem than Liverpool. Which competition is more important/better? Depends on who you support because nobody can be objective about it.

SantryRed · 10-04-2008 08:23PM

The most comprehensive test of a club side is to win both the Champions League and their domestic league in the same season.
Then they would be classed as proper Champions of Europe as they have been consistently playing well for the whole season.

Trizo · 10-04-2008 08:31PM

SantryRed wrote: »

The most comprehensive test of a club side is to win both the Champions League and their domestic league in the same season.
Then they would be classed as proper Champions of Europe as they have been consistently playing well for the whole season.

I think that’s a pretty reasonable argument shows that you have competed on all front and beaten all comers. It has to be a hell of alot easier for a team if they only have one aim or chance of winning something be it league or cup.
Also you could prob throw in the intercontinental cup and then the team would be classed as world champions.

walshki · 11-04-2008 12:06AM

Agree with renaming the competition but more importantly lets rename this thread the 'big swinging mickey thread'.

The unbelievable thing is that there's a bit of an underlying presumption that united will win the league and Liverpool might win the Champions league (we can all pretend to be objective but lets stop pretending). Will we all salute Chelski if they do the double - inwardly I won't - I think the way their playing is crap at the moment and deep down no matter what all the united and liverpool fans say (and I'm a liverpool fan) we'll all be gutted and will feel that the right team didn't win.

Winning competitions is about just that - winning - best? most difficult? You can never tell. Prestige is all you can really think abour and there's no real answer to that one either. CL is more glamorous, PL involves a lot more playing time so both have their selling points.

Now, where did I see that 'Whats the sound of one hand clapping thread?'

Unearthly · 11-04-2008 12:21AM

As a Man Ud fan(before i get accused of being a scouser with a logical post), I think it's a bit pathetic how Liverpool are being accused of devlauing the cup. They have proved beyond any doubt they have the requirements, tactics and skill to beat any team and progress. Anyone who has tried to belittle their achivements are just embarrassing themselves.

As for which proves who is the better team, I would go for the league. You have to be more consistent in the league in order to win it. I think it takes 2 different skills to perform in the league and CL though

Guy:Incognito · 11-04-2008 12:25AM

walshki wrote: »

Liverpool might win the Champions league'

Well they might. So might Chelsea, Utd or Barce.

smemon · 11-04-2008 12:42AM

Too many quotes to mention

but in order for liverpool to be considered a top side they have to prove themselves across the board - they have to challenge for all.

I'm not anti-liverpool more than i am anti-arsenal or anti-chelsea...

I recognise Chelsea and Arsenal as top sides as they have the style of football and the consistency in all trophies to merit being labelled a top side.

Liverpool quite simply do not have the x factor those two sides + Utd have. They're getting there, as i said before. The have the work rate, like Greece did. That's a huge reason why they're so successful in europe.

They also have Torres who is the real deal and forces you in to acknowledging Liverpool have a certain cutting edge about them. But overall, Utd & Chelsea are the top two in english football, followed by Arsenal and then Liverpool.

There's not much between Utd and Chelsea imo, Arsenal are a good bit behind them and are punching above their weight i believe (i said that throughout the season), and Liverpool are very close to Arsenal, but still a bit behind.

To win a Champions league & return to another final shortly afterwards is obviously a sign that Liverpool are doing something right. But when you look at the bigger picture, failing to secure a 4th place finish in the league or even playing for 4th spot tells you all you need to know.

Like i said above, i'm not any more anti-Liverpool than i am Arsenal or Chelsea, i'm simply looking at the form over a number of years and also taking in to account the potential i think all the sides have or don't have.

Of course it's nice to see under dogs win every now and then and of course every side is going to need and get luck - that's football. But when underdogs rate themselves as top dogs, they need to be put in their place.

kryogen · 11-04-2008 12:53AM

Winning your domestic league is the most comprehensive challenge any team from the top leagues can have

end of story

DSB · 11-04-2008 02:03AM

jasonorr wrote: »

While Liverpool are a very good side in Europe, I feel that they don't deserve to be in the Semi-Finals this year and anyone who says that they do isn't worth responding to!

Oh my, I actually wretched a little reading this post.

kryogen wrote: »

Winning your domestic league is the most comprehensive challenge any team from the top leagues can have

end of story

Oh, we may aswell close the thread now then.

kryogen · 11-04-2008 02:11AM

thanks DSB, good to see you got the point

Dont be at yourself · 11-04-2008 02:41AM

How many more threads can we have this same discussion in? This board will never reach a consensus on the merits of Liverpool, and all the arguments have been heard countless times. Lets put it to bed instead of dragging every thread down that route.

iregk · 11-04-2008 08:16AM

I agree, lets put this one to bed. Do we really need this discussion every time liverpool or united win a game in europe.

The fact is, liverpool are not good enough in the league while they propser in europe. To some extent its a mystery wrapped up in an enigma. United have been great in the league but not good enough in europe. Ditto for Chelsea and Arsenal (one final appearance a side).

The fact though remains, anyone other than united fans are going to point at uniteds lack of european cups and say they are not the best. Anyone other than liverpool fans are going to poke fun at them saying they can't win the league hence they are not the best. Even if they win the league people are bound to say they are still not the best as they didn't win the toyota corolla world club cup (or what ever its called) by failing to beat sporting shangai or something in 60degree heat!
If chelsea win everything people win still poke fun because its chelsea and it will pi$$ them off no end. They are old arguments that we have heard countless time so please can we put it to bed.

Mr Alan · 11-04-2008 09:26AM

smemon wrote: »

I'm not anti-liverpool more than i am anti-arsenal or anti-chelsea...I recognise Chelsea and Arsenal as top sides as they have the style of football and the consistency in all trophies to merit being labelled a top side.

Stop going on about the ****ing X-factor Mr Cowell!

So Arsenal are a top side yet they have finished below Liverpool in the last two seasons, and havent won a trophy since 2005? But Liverpool arent despite winning the Cl in 2005, the FA Cup in 2006 and finishing ABOVE arsenal in the league the last two seasons (and the way things are going at the minute for Arsenal, may well do again) are not a top side?

Your logic is baffling to say the least.

but the simple fact is, League is priority for Liverpool this year and most years as it has been so long since we won it. If we won the league every year, the CL would be priority.

there is no doubt that the CL is the more prestigious trophy to win and is regarded as number 1 in every country except England. this explains why Liverpool are so respected throughout Europe, but ridiculed by opposing fans in England.

gucci · 11-04-2008 10:25AM

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

"Oi can see you've played knoifey schpooney befower!!"

Haha, wasnt sure if anyone would have known what i was on about there :pac::pac:

--amadeus-- · 11-04-2008 10:59AM

Prestige and difficulty are two different things. As it happens I would rather see LFC win the EPL than the CL simply because it's "our" trophy and it must be getting homesick

I agree that the EPL is damn hard to win. It goes without saying that the CL is also hard to win.

My point is that to win the EPL you need to be able to grind out results week in, week out. You need to perform in the 6 or 10 tough games but also in the games against the middle rankers and no-hopers. Not easy and - thru gritted teeth - I will congratulate whoever wins it this year.

But you cannot deny that there are EPL games you can cruise through. Do Derby really need a full strength team to beat? Will WBA next year? Or Fulham? Are Reading and Birmingham really that tough? In contrast (cliche alert) all of the games in the CL are tough.

So winning the CL you need to have all (or most) of the qualities you need to win the EPL. But you also need something else - a bit of magic and unpredictability - to get through the knock-out phases. A team can be drab but efficient and win teh EPL (you know who I'm talking about) but efficiency alone won't win you the CL.

Mitch Connor · 11-04-2008 11:19AM

every single season, I would pick the Prem over the CL. Every time. The PL is the trophy i want United to win no matter what. the CL is a bonus imo. Wining the CL on its own would be of a little more consequence than winning the FA Cup on its own.

The most comprehensive test of a club side?

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