Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Anti-depressants do F*CK ALL

  • 27-02-2008 01:50PM
    #1
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭


    Hey folks,
    I'm sure alot of ye have heard about this recent study.
    Here's a link to the study:
    http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045

    Here's a link to a news story:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/feb/26/mentalhealth.medicalresearch
    Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.

    The study examined all available data on the drugs, including results from clinical trials that the manufacturers chose not to publish at the time. The trials compared the effect on patients taking the drugs with those given a placebo or sugar pill.

    When all the data was pulled together, it appeared that patients had improved - but those on placebo improved just as much as those on the drugs.

    The only exception is in the most severely depressed patients, according to the authors - Prof Irving Kirsch from the department of psychology at Hull University and colleagues in the US and Canada. But that is probably because the placebo stopped working so well, they say, rather than the drugs having worked better.

    "Given these results, there seems little reason to prescribe antidepressant medication to any but the most severely depressed patients, unless alternative treatments have failed," says Kirsch. "This study raises serious issues that need to be addressed surrounding drug licensing and how drug trial data is reported."

    The paper, published today in the journal PLoS (Public Library of Science) Medicine, is likely to have a significant impact on the prescribing of the drugs. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice) already recommends that counselling should be tried before doctors prescribe antidepressants. Kirsch, who was one of the consultants for the guidelines, says the new analysis "would suggest that the prescription of antidepressant medications might be restricted even more".


    etc

    Interesting stuff, especially when you consider the readiness of some doctors to prescribe anti-depressants immediately (especially in the US).

    What ye think?


«134

Comments

  • #2
    projectmayhem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,421 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    i recall something on equinox a few years ago about how scientists are using ecstacy in clinical trials to try and find a balance that would work as an anti-depressant rather then just a party drug


  • #3
    Rob_l
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,906 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    Thinking about depression really gets me down maybe I should be on some drugs


  • #4
    workaccount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭workaccount


    DaveMcG wrote: »
    Hey folks,
    I'm sure alot of ye have heard about this recent study.
    Here's a link to the study:
    http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045

    Here's a link to a news story:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/feb/26/mentalhealth.medicalresearch



    Interesting stuff, especially when you consider the readiness of some doctors to prescribe anti-depressants immediately (especially in the US).

    What ye think?

    I've been taking them for the last few months. They don't do a hell of alot really (won't solve any problems for you or anything) but they can make day to day life easier. You do not have to deal with immensely low feelings - which makes you feel a little better and a little more positive overall.

    A little positivity is a great step to releasing yourself from the grips of depression. They also took away my anxiety and anger which is impossible to deal with if your depressed.


  • #5
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,377 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    It's just one study. I wouldn't take it as conclusive.


  • #6
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    Might be slightly naive of me, but I don't believe very many "day-to-day" tablets actually do help people. I'm not one for taking Vitamin pills, I'd rather eat an orange thanks.

    Paracetemol? Nah I'll live through a headache.

    I'd say a decent percentage of them are placebo's for hypochondriacs anyway.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    Sherifu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    MrJoeSoap wrote: »
    Might be slightly naive of me, but I don't believe very many "day-to-day" tablets actually do help people. I'm not one for taking Vitamin pills, I'd rather eat an orange thanks.

    Paracetemol? Nah I'll live through a headache.

    I'd say a decent percentage of them are placebo's for hypochondriacs anyway.
    Exactly what I was thinking. Placebo effect. I try not to take any tablets unless I really have to.


  • #8
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Stark wrote: »
    It's just one study. I wouldn't take it as conclusive.
    article wrote:
    The study examined all available data on the drugs, including results from clinical trials that the manufacturers chose not to publish at the time.

    Pretty damning IMO.
    Placebo effect is well proven even in pain medication...something as tenuous and subjective as a case of depression is going to be a lot more prone to placebo/psychosomatic effects.


  • #9
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Stark wrote: »
    It's just one study. I wouldn't take it as conclusive.
    Well it's a meta-analysis of all clinical trials submitted to the FDA, so it's a bit more significant than one single study. It certainly makes it worthy of discussion anyway.


  • #10
    workaccount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭workaccount


    MrJoeSoap wrote: »
    Might be slightly naive of me, but I don't believe very many "day-to-day" tablets actually do help people. I'm not one for taking Vitamin pills, I'd rather eat an orange thanks.

    Paracetemol? Nah I'll live through a headache.

    I'd say a decent percentage of them are placebo's for hypochondriacs anyway.

    Th reality is that it's proven your body needs vitamins and minerals and if you are lacking them it will show on your hair, skin, tongue etc. If you are into keeping fit, hard training etc. your body will not recovery well from training and you will get run down and lose fitness.

    Yes you can get them all with a healthy balanced diet but not with just an orange. I try to eat a healthy balanced diet but it's so much work trying to figure out am I getting enough vitamin e, what about vitamin a...oh no I need magnesium.

    It's so much handier to take a high quality vitamin like http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Plus-Source-Life-Liquid/dp/B00014IHKA to make sure your covered.

    I rarely take painkillers as I would hate to get immune but the odd time I need them I take them and they really work a treat within 10-15mins. Great invention and they really do work.


  • #11
    Occidental
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭Occidental


    Know someone on AD's for the last year or so. No fabulous improvement in the last year, but a noticible one over the last few months. A few weeks ago, noticed the new repeat prescription from doctor was for a stronger dose(doctors genuine mistake)and this coincided with the recent improvement. Both dosages are small, but shows that they do work for some people as the person wasn't aware they were on a stronger dose when the improvement occured.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Forget the original article, Occidental's own study has just rubbished it!

    QED to be honest


  • #13
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Occidental wrote: »
    Know someone on AD's for the last year or so. No fabulous improvement in the last year, but a noticible one over the last few months. A few weeks ago, noticed the new repeat prescription from doctor was for a stronger dose(doctors genuine mistake)and this coincided with the recent improvement. Both dosages are small, but shows that they do work for some people as the person wasn't aware they were on a stronger dose when the improvement occured.

    The thing about certain ADs, especially ones affecting serotonin levels, is that they take a relatively long period of usage to show signs of inprovement.
    It could be argued that in taking away the actual fact of the ilness, you leave the sufferer with a more positive outlook which in turn helps to lift the depressive state further.


  • #14
    admiralofthefleet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭admiralofthefleet


    depression is like bullimia, it makes me sick


  • #15
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,728 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    Stark wrote: »
    It's just one study. I wouldn't take it as conclusive.

    Not only that, but a pretty flawed one as I understand it.

    The data they take apparently includes data from trials which failed FDA approval, meaning the drug would have had to be tweaked before being approved again; essentially data about a drug that never made it to market.

    Secondly, the report only covers SSRIs, excluding one currently available. Not a problem with the study itself so much as the way in which it's being reported. This is not about all anti-depressants but rather a particular subset of them.

    Also, regarding the placebo effect, even this study admits that there's a 30% (if I remember correctly) improvement in those taking SSRIs over placebos so there is a difference.

    To be perfectly honest, regardless of these drugs efficacy, the real money needs to go into counseling service to accompany medication, or even in isolation from medication where appropriate; many studies have shown that medication works best hand in hand with counseling.


  • #16
    c0rk3r
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭c0rk3r


    Smells like a smear campaign coated on biased recordings trying to discredit prozac. One branch of government research body has been unable to design an anti-depressant after years of money being pumped into it. They are feeling the pressure so release this study to ease that pressure. Politics really

    Fact


  • #17
    She Devil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭She Devil


    I have a prescription for those type of tablets sitting on my desk ... definately prescribed to me by an over hasty doctor! I was thinking about getting them for the past week .. but this study had made up my mind for me ... I am now trying the SMILE option .. and its working .. the sun also has me in top form .. and its all by myself :D:D:D
    Think these drugs are over rated ... :eek:


  • #18
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    It's a crap study (or at least the conclusions are crap). The study actually shows that they DO work, though the authors have failed to see that.

    We've had a discussion about it on biology/medicine:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055244028


  • #19
    Ross_Mahon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Ross_Mahon


    I have no reason to take Anti-depressants, and im sure there are a lot of people taking them with little or no reason.


  • #20
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,377 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    She Devil wrote: »
    I am now trying the SMILE option .. and its working .. the sun also has me in top form .. and its all by myself :D:D:D
    Think these drugs are over rated ... :eek:

    Ah, the "cheer up and smile" treatment for depression that works so well for everyone...

    If it's the sun cheering you up, then it's quite likely that you were suffering from seasonal affective disorder, where you get depressed during the dark winter months.


  • #21
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Fukking joke. As are some attitudes. What about individual cases? And what about the different types of depression out there, and the varying degrees? What about the different types of anti-depressants? What about those who have exhausted every avenue besides anti-depressants and still want to kill themselves?

    Sure, anti-depressants don't work for everyone, but they do work for a hell of a lot of people, so really, claims like "I'd never take medication for it" and "it's likely to be a placebo" by people who clearly have never had depression in their lives, is a load of misinformed horse-****.

    Did it ever occur to some people that there are those with depression so severe that they have to take medication? To use an analogy, it's like the way a person with cystic fibrosis has to take a cocktail of pills every day just to stay alive. I know a girl who's bipolar and if she didn't take her 15 tablets a day she'd hear voices, have hallucinations, inflict harm on herself, start doing crazy things with food like eating bags of flour and have to be carted off to the nuthouse. It's not a nice way to live, but it's the only way... if she wants to live.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    MarkR
    Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    Mmm... Those placebos seem mighty useful. What do they taste like? Must ask Doc for some.


  • #23
    workaccount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭workaccount


    Dudess wrote: »

    Sure, anti-depressants don't work for everyone, but they do work for a hell of a lot of people, so really, people making claims like "I'd never take medication" and "it's likely to be a placebo" when they've clearly never had depression in their lives, is a load of misinformed horse-****.

    I could not agree more and one person I really hate is Tom Cruise. The way he speaks about medication and it should not be used etc. etc. church of scientology stuff.

    In my opinion Tom Cruise is far from the smartest person I have ever seen and anytime I see him in interviews he is not even able to string a sentence together. I recall parker having to constantly put words in his mouth.

    And then he goes on saying that people should not use drugs. I hope nobody takes him seriously as a spokesman. Does anybody know if Tom Cruise has ever suffered from depression?

    If you are interesting in seeing him talk about this it's on youtube.

    Anti-depressants work: FACT
    Painkillers work: FACT

    There is of course alternative medicines though - alot of which I believe in also.


  • #24
    Fwaggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭Fwaggle


    Dudess wrote: »
    Fukking joke. As are some attitudes. What about individual cases? And what about the different types of depression out there, and the varying degrees? What about the different types of anti-depressants? What about those who have exhausted every avenue besides anti-depressants and still want to kill themselves?

    Sure, anti-depressants don't work for everyone, but they do work for a hell of a lot of people, so really, people making claims like "I'd never take medication" and "it's likely to be a placebo" when they've clearly never had depression in their lives, is a load of misinformed horse-****.

    Absolutely.

    And as for the person who reckons the way to cure depression is to smile...well there isn't a rolleyes big enough.


  • #25
    workaccount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭workaccount


    She Devil wrote: »
    I have a prescription for those type of tablets sitting on my desk ... definately prescribed to me by an over hasty doctor! I was thinking about getting them for the past week .. but this study had made up my mind for me ... I am now trying the SMILE option .. and its working .. the sun also has me in top form .. and its all by myself :D:D:D
    Think these drugs are over rated ... :eek:

    Keep convincing yourself smiling will cure your depression and you are setting yourself up for a life of delusion. Believe me I've tried! It takes the focus so far away from the problem you may waste 3 years of your life (as I did) pretending your ok before you actually go to the doctor and get help.


  • #26
    Rob_l
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,906 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    Dudess wrote: »
    Fukking joke. As are some attitudes. What about individual cases? And what about the different types of depression out there, and the varying degrees? What about the different types of anti-depressants? What about those who have exhausted every avenue besides anti-depressants and still want to kill themselves?

    Sure, anti-depressants don't work for everyone, but they do work for a hell of a lot of people, so really, people making claims like "I'd never take medication" and "it's likely to be a placebo" when they've clearly never had depression in their lives, is a load of misinformed horse-****.


    Perhaps they do work for some but some success does not justify prescribing them to everyone who has had a bad day, isn't there a situation whereby they are being prescribed to more people than they should much in the same manner that doctors used often prescribe antibiotics?
    A lot of people are unhappy when they leave a doctors office without a prescription and this is also part of the problem.


  • #27
    Hrududu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    Perhaps they do work for some but some success does not justify prescribing them to everyone who has had a bad day, isn't there a situation whereby they are being prescribed to more people than they should much in the same manner that doctors used often prescribe antibiotics?
    Are they really being over-prescribed though? Or is it a bit of an urban myth that they are being given out like sweets? I've never had depression, and I hope I never do, but I would certainly trust a doctor over the likes of Tom Cruise and his cronies.


  • #28
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Rob_l wrote: »
    Perhaps they do work for some but some success does not justify prescribing them to everyone who has had a bad day.
    So what your saying is, antidepressants for some, miniature American flags for others.


  • #29
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I think if people viewed mental illness in the same way as physical illness it would remove a lot of ignorance.
    That said, anti-depressants are not for everyone, and being over-medicated can, in some cases, lead to a person becoming just a shell. There's a very militant guy in Cork who advocates on behalf of the severely mentally ill, and he wants anti-depressants almost done away with. And he knows what he's talking about - he's been a patient in St Stephen's (the St Pat's of Cork). But he's talking about One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest/Nurse Ratchett scenarios - people who are absolutely powerless. Big difference between them and an individual who has the freedom to do as they please but is struck down by depression and may have to spend a short time in hospital, or may not have to spend time in one at all.


  • #30
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Dudess wrote: »
    Sure, anti-depressants don't work for everyone, but they do work for a hell of a lot of people, so really, claims like "I'd never take medication for it" and "it's likely to be a placebo" by people who clearly have never had depression in their lives, is a load of misinformed horse-****.

    Now that's making the same kind of assumptions as you're accusing others of. Can you be sure these people have never had depression or that they're mis-informed?
    Dudess wrote: »
    Did it ever occur to some people that there are those with depression so severe that they have to take medication?
    And there a plenty of people out there who just think they need to. Anti-Depressents can work wonders on some people, but I do think that there are a lot of doctors who will perscribe them at a moments notice without taking into account what's best for the patient.

    As Dudess says:
    Dudess wrote: »
    What about individual cases?
    The individual has to be taken into account before fervent claims that all pills work or all pills don't. Some people here are making gross generalisations.
    workaccount wrote: »
    Anti-depressants work: FACT, but not always
    Painkillers work: FACT, but not always

    I just had to correct that. Again, they don't always work for everyone.
    Fwaggle wrote: »
    And as for the person who reckons the way to cure depression is to smile...well there isn't a rolleyes big enough.

    Maybe you should try it before condeming it? If a person is suffering from a mild depression, changing their outlook on things can work wonders. Depression is a complex thing and there is no one cure-all for it.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,377 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    humanji wrote: »
    Maybe you should try it before condeming it? If a person is suffering from a mild depression, changing their outlook on things can work wonders. Depression is a complex thing and there is no one cure-all for it.

    I would say it's hardly clinical depression if putting on a smile is the cure. There has to be several factors present for a diagnosis of clinical depression to be made, one of which is that the feelings of depression are persistent and not easily shakeable. You don't get a diagnosis of clinical depression by just saying to your doctor "I feel a bit down in the dumps".


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement
Advertisement