Ireland -v- Brazil

OhNoYouDidn't · 12-02-2008 07:37PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

Steady on.

I've heard that said about John Sheridan, Stephen McPhail, Andy Reid and even Stephen Ireland and I'm inclined to think that McGeady is in the bottom two of that lot.

He suffers a little bit of Robbie Keane syndrome, where he plays better for club than country. The thing is, with Keane, I'm pretty sure it's down to attitude. With McGeady, I dunno, sometimes he looks woefully limited, sometimes it looks like he doesn't have a good head on his shoulder (one particular instance against Brazil where he didn't look up and released the ball to Keane waaay too late - honestly it reminded me of watching a Terry Phelan run).

Right now, I think Ireland have better options in midfield. Duff, Andy Reid, Stephen Reid, Ireland and Hunt would all be my preffered choices for attacking midfield.

You listed central midfield playmakers. Aido is an out and out winger. His technique is immaculate, he can beat any fullback, he has been kicked, gouged, bitten etc in Scotland. His final cross is occassionaly iffy, but he is in the form of his carreer. Search youtube for the Abderdeen match on Sunday, specifically his goal and his assist for the 4th. Unreal, and when Andy Reid turns on that tight a space, nevermind with the ball, we will talk about him.

I think he was a player Stan hadnt a clue how to handle.

Simple reality is he has been double market in most CL games by the big boys and will be again by Barca Wed week. That says more than any internet forum.

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 07:43PM

In fairness you did compare him to Brady. Andy Reid is a lot more technically gifted than McGeady when it comes to the Liam Brady attributes.

OhNoYouDidn't · 12-02-2008 07:45PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

In fairness you did compare him to Brady. Andy Reid is a lot more technically gifted than McGeady when it comes to the Liam Brady attributes.

Ok. I'll rephrase it. He is the most technically gifted Irish winger ever.

Better?

GuanYin · 12-02-2008 07:47PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You listed central midfield playmakers. Aido is an out and out winger. His technique is immaculate, he can beat any fullback, he has been kicked, gouged, bitten etc in Scotland. His final cross is occassionaly iffy, but he is in the form of his carreer.

Ok, even as a winger, Duff has more technical ability, is a better crosser and is more experienced. Hunt has more graft, is more versitile and is arguably a better crosser. Reid is technically better, has far better vision and is a more intelligent player.

McGeady is still young, so many of these things may come, but, he's not there yet.

I think he was a player Stan hadnt a clue how to handle.

Stan couldn't handle alot of things.

Simple reality is he has been double market in most CL games by the big boys and will be again by Barca Wed week. That says more than any internet forum.

Well I'd argue that his performances for Ireland against some dull and decidedly average fullbacks negate the superlatives he gets in the CL - or at least puts them in perspective.

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 07:48PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

With McGeady, I dunno, sometimes he looks woefully limited, sometimes it looks like he doesn't have a good head on his shoulder (one particular instance against Brazil where he didn't look up and released the ball to Keane waaay too late - honestly it reminded me of watching a Terry Phelan run).

I personally think when it comes to McGeady the Ireland fans are looking out for the mistakes and weaknesses. He's far from the headless chicken some people think he is. His head is always up unless he's trying to outpace an opponent. The incident you're talking about was a pass to Duff and he wasn't trying to outpace 1 opponent, it was 3. Maybe he's limited in that he can't run at full pace with his head up, I don't know.

Anyway, here's the pass.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/456/duffoffsideis6.jpg

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1989/duffoffside3or1.jpg

There's no doubt that McGeady's gonna be a star imo. I've held back from making that prediction for years but now I'm certain of it.

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 07:55PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

Well I'd argue that his performances for Ireland against some dull and decidedly average fullbacks negate the superlatives he gets in the CL - or at least puts them in perspective.

That was down to confidence.

It's very frustrating trying to get that point across. I find is easy as anything to spot a player low in confidence, not just McGeady. Some people seem to find it hard. He was nervous wreck playing for us. I was astonished out confident he looked against Brazil because I wasn't expecting it at all.

I think he's a more intelligent player than Duff was at 21. McGeady's gonna go on to be a playmaker. Duff has never been playmaker material. Strachan has to be praised for that because it's Strachan that's turning him into a playmaker. He's having a lot more success than Mourinho had with Duff when he tried to make him play simple passes. Most of the passes went back to the full back.

OhNoYouDidn't · 12-02-2008 07:57PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

Ok, even as a winger, Duff has more technical ability, is a better crosser and is more experienced. Hunt has more graft, is more versitile and is arguably a better crosser. Reid is technically better, has far better vision and is a more intelligent player.

We could argue about Duff, but the form he is in at the moment.....

If you think Hunt has more graft that McGeady, good luck to you. He gets a number of bookings for his tackling back on the edge of the box, and who can forget him knocking out Gavin Raes teeth!!

Reid is technically better? Passing only.

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

McGeady is still young, so many of these things may come, but, he's not there yet..

It is for Celtic.

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

Stan couldn't handle alot of things..

Agreed

Well I'd argue that his performances for Ireland against some dull and decidedly average fullbacks negate the superlatives he gets in the CL - or at least puts them in perspective.[/QUOTE]

What does the last line mean? The CL is an inferior competetion?

The reality is that Stan failed to get a tenth of what McGeady is capable of on a big stage that the old firms and CL prove he can do. The fact he had his best game for Ireland after Stan left says it all.

We have a genuine gem in Aiden, lets hope Traps can get it out of him like O'Neill and Strachan can.

GuanYin · 12-02-2008 07:57PM

No, it was a pass to Keane I'm talking about and it was a similar break on the right. In that case, Duff was clearly on side as far as I can tell.

If McGeady is going to be a star, I'm afraid he needs to leave the SPL.

A Dub in Glasgo · 12-02-2008 08:03PM

The only reason for that is the blinkered view of most EPL fans

GuanYin · 12-02-2008 08:05PM

I'm not saying McGeady is a bad player, or won't be a good player. I'm saying that right now, there is alot of hope being pinned on him for Ireland that is, frankly, unfounded. So far, when it matters, he hasn't done it for us.

That may well be confidence, that may well be form, but iirc, he was on form for Celtic when he was putting in stinkers for us.

Honestly, I think you're deluding yourselves if you think it is certain he'll flourish under Trap. We're going to be playing defensive counter attacking football. Flair may not factor into it at all.

OhNoYouDidn't · 12-02-2008 08:06PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

If McGeady is going to be a star, I'm afraid he needs to leave the SPL.

And follow the upward career paths of Miller and Healy?

If you think Wigan, Fulham or Sunderland can match his wage or ambition, well good luck. He is happy where he is winning medals, playing in Europe and training with the best at one of the best facilities. He is best buddies with Miller, who rues the day he left Celtic for an £2k a week.

Its the Henrik Larsonn argument all over again. "He could never cut it in the EPL" and all that ill informed nonsense.

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 08:07PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

If McGeady is going to be a star, I'm afraid he needs to leave the SPL.

I think the most important thing is he continues to get coached by Strachan.

PSI: Las Vegas wrote:

That may well be confidence, that may well be form, but iirc, he was on form for Celtic when he was putting in stinkers for us.

He's proven himself to the fans, his teammates and his players in Scotland. He has to do that all over again for Ireland and the pressure is enormous. That's why I'm surprised he looked so confident last week.

GuanYin · 12-02-2008 08:07PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The only reason for that is the blinkered view of most EPL fans

I'm not an EPL fan. My team isn't in the EPL and I watch it with the same interest that I watch SPL, eL, Seria A, La Liga and MLS, mainly to watch certain players. The SPL is an inferior league to all but the eL and MLS.

GuanYin · 12-02-2008 08:10PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And follow the upward career paths of Miller and Healy?

Who looked quite good for Celtic, right?

If you think Wigan, Fulham or Sunderland can match his wage or ambition, well good luck. He is happy where he is winning medals, playing in Europe and training with the best at one of the best facilities. He is best buddies with Miller, who rues the day he left Celtic for an £2k a week.

Well Miller was never the type of player people wanted him to be, that was his failing.

Its the Henrik Larsonn argument all over again. "He could never cut it in the EPL" and all that ill informed nonsense.

Larsson proved himself long before he left Celtic on the international stage, I never doubted him. I DID doubt that he'd score 40 goals a season in another better league, and I stand by that.

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 08:14PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

Who looked quite good for Celtic, right?

This is something that we have to answer every week. I personally think it's as easy to judge a player at Celtic as it is anywhere.

A Dub in Glasgo · 12-02-2008 08:23PM

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

I DID doubt that he'd score 40 goals a season in another better league, and I stand by that.

Henrik Larsson scored 35 SPL goals and won the Golden Boot. The year before, the Golden Boot winner was Kevin Phillips who scored 30 EPL goals. Is Kevin Phillips much much better than Larsson?

_blank_ · 12-02-2008 08:24PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

That was down to confidence.

Not this. Again?

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

If McGeady is going to be a star, I'm afraid he needs to leave the SPL.

Yep, I'm afraid as long as he's "doing it" against the likes of Gretna, Kilmarnock and St mirren he'll never learn enough to compete with the etter players who play internationally.

Four or six CL games a season isn't enough.

eirebhoy wrote: »

He's proven himself to the fans, his teammates and his players in Scotland. He has to do that all over again for Ireland and the pressure is enormous. That's why I'm surprised he looked so confident last week.

But he can do it in the CL?

This is so funny.

He "needs" to be double, or triple marked against barca, thus making him look a bad player, and he hasn't the confidence to do it against Cyprus, who only looked good against ireland because they had a bad manager.

Give me a break.

This confidence rubbish has gone on long enough.

Here, eb, tell me this. Which other players of note are these so-called "confidence" players?

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 08:31PM

DesF wrote: »

Not this. Again?

Of course. Again. Should I stop telling the truth to suit yourself? I'm absolutely as certain as you can get that his problems for Ireland, like his problems for Celtic in Old Trafford, are entirely confidence related. Thankfully I shouldn't have to explain that again. If he's in good form for Celtic I fully expect him to perform for us.

But he can do it in the CL?

Ask Benfica. Embarrassed their defenders home and away.

and he hasn't the confidence to do it against Cyprus, who only looked good against ireland because they had a bad manager.

I think you've solved a million problems. Poor quality of opposition is the cure for low confidence?

In answer to your last question. Diego Forlan would be the first player to come to mind. Off the top of my head a player that doesn't seem to be effected by confidence at all is Andy Reid.

Maybe you're similar to Andy Reid mentally. You play football but don't seem to understand how confidence effects players. Confidence seriously effects me. I simply cannot play a team game because of it.

_blank_ · 12-02-2008 08:38PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

Of course. Again. Should I stop telling the truth to suit yourself?

Oh, I'm not asking you to stop arguing your case at all. But come on, yourself and another handful of Celtic fans are the only ones harping on about this "confidence" thing. Fair play for defending your club's player and all, but that's all it is.

eirebhoy wrote: »

I'm absolutely as certain as you can get that his problems for Ireland, like his problems for Celtic in Old Trafford, are entirely confidence related. Thankfully I shouldn't have to explain that again.

eirebhoy wrote: »

Ask Benfica. Embarrassed their defenders home and away.

So why the jaysis is his "confidence" so low playing for ireland against the likes of Cyprus, who you claim only beat ireland because Stan was the manager.

What brings on this low confidence loss?

Large crowd? nah, because the plays in front of 70k in Celtic Park every second week, so that certainly won't wash with me, so don't even try.

Expectant crowd? If Celtic fans don't expect a win against anyone other than Rangers I'd be shocked, so no, that doesn't wash either.

eirebhoy wrote: »

If he's in good form for Celtic I fully expect him to perform for us.

Then why did you say this?

eirebhoy wrote:

He's proven himself to the fans, his teammates and his players in Scotland. He has to do that all over again for Ireland and the pressure is enormous. That's why I'm surprised he looked so confident last week.

Has he been shíte for Celtic recently?

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 08:47PM

Just to let you know I previous edited my post (so I don't have to repeat myself). I'll reply to your post in a sec.

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 08:57PM

DesF wrote: »

Oh, I'm not asking you to stop arguing your case at all. But come on, yourself and another handful of Celtic fans are the only ones harping on about this "confidence" thing. Fair play for defending your club's player and all, but that's all it is.

Firstly, I don't see many people arguing that about McGeady. I've had to argue the same case with Celtic fans many a time. Secondly, Celtic fans and people that watch McGeady regularly are the only fans that really know what McGeady's like mentally so I wouldn't be surprised by that. You think I overrate him. You think I have blinkers on. I personally can't believe I come across as such a deluded person.

DesF wrote:

So why the jaysis is his "confidence" so low playing for ireland against the likes of Cyprus, who you claim only beat ireland because Stan was the manager.

One of the few times I've seen Duff low on confidence in recent years playing for Ireland was over in the Faroe Islands.

What brings on this low confidence loss?

To put it simple... opinions. The opinions of fans, the media, his teammates and his fellow footballers. Having a bad game and knowing that so many people think you're rubbish.

It's hard to explain. You'd have to suffer from it to understand which you clearly haven't.

Large crowd? nah, because the plays in front of 70k in Celtic Park every second week, so that certainly won't wash with me, so don't even try.

He's proven himself to the Celtic crowd. He has to go to Ireland and prove himself to the Irish crowd, this time with a reputation to live up to. The pressure in that situation is huge, it really is, and McGeady previously looked like he couldn't cope with it.

Then why did you say this?

Because of the confidence he showed against Brazil. He's clearly settled in now. He has the confidence now playing for Ireland. Maybe that started with his sub appearance against Cyprus. He would have felt he did himself justice for once. Then he started the next game against Wales and did alright.

I know how it feels to rely on confidence so much but I just find it hard to explain. I've always said that all it would take is one big performance for McGeady to settle in. You can search my previous posts and I'm sure you'll find a post or 2 with me saying that. If I'm playing a game of pool in a pub full of people and somehow pot 3 balls in a row. I get the confidence to go to win the match. I'll know that the people watching think I'm decent and I'll play well from then on. The problem with me is I just can't pot those 3 balls because I'm a nervous wreck. Take the people out of the room and it's a different story.

GuanYin · 12-02-2008 09:08PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Henrik Larsson scored 35 SPL goals and won the Golden Boot. The year before, the Golden Boot winner was Kevin Phillips who scored 30 EPL goals. Is Kevin Phillips much much better than Larsson?

As has been said before, anyone can have a good season, or more to the point, under the right conditions, anyone can have a great season. Phillips had everything that was going go his way that season. He had the perfect strike partner, a manager that billed him as the star player and played a game to suit his needs. Good wingers and a solid midfield behind him.

Phillips has never done it at International level and when things haven't been going his way, hasn't scored. Larsson has shown that he will always score goals, *IF* you built a team to all his strengths and complimented his game with his perfect playing partners, he may have scored 35 goals in the EPL. In any other situation, nope, not gonna happen.

A Dub in Glasgo · 12-02-2008 09:47PM

What you are saying can be applied to almost every goalscorer i.e. if the team complements the goalscorers style, he will score. Is that not the idea behind building a team?

eirebhoy · 12-02-2008 09:49PM

See this clip of McShane falling on his arse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YciOwBodD44

Seriously though, stuff like that was a regularity for Puyol at that age. McShane needs to be cut some slack. He'll never be Puyol's level but don't be writing him off for appearing to run around like a headless chicken. He's a good reader of the game if you can see past his dodgy barnet and style of play.

Ireland -v- Brazil

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