The poker forum - my take

RasTa · 24-01-2008 06:08PM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

?

If on a skill level a cash game player is far superior to a tournament player in any poker discipline, why do more cash game players not play tournaments? Cue standard answers - too time consuming, too much variance, etc etc.

Just do what greenrizla does and play 3/6 omaha + crush tourneys. Then you can move from being a tourney donk.

Requiem4adream wrote: »

?

i dont believe a good speicalist cash gamer could compete with the top online tournament specialists in mtt

I also don't understand the point of this statement? Why not, what reasons, what format are we talking about for competing?

Requiem4adream · 24-01-2008 06:12PM

nicnicnic wrote: »

I'm really not getting the comparisons here, its like comparing say my poker tracker cash stats with say Valor's

He said he sustains winning mtt results, infers he could destroy the donkaments if he applied himself, lloyd said im levelling obv - well there's the reality. My opr stats are there to show the gulf in mtt ability.

It's a challenge for HJ if he wants to prove himself in mtt. Side bet if he wants a real challenge

Just goes back to Tony's idea about the tourny v cash teams, it would be fun.

Requiem4adream · 24-01-2008 06:15PM

The Opr stats are basically useless but i had nothing else to use to respond to Lloyd, and it's at least indicative. I've no intention of putting up his actual p&l it's disingenuous and unfair. he's not a tourny player. i'm not a cash player. my only contention is he infers he could beat the mtt's easy, and most good cash players here do too, well why dont some, any, one of ye do it?

nicnicnic · 24-01-2008 06:45PM

lolpropbetsforgreenjokerdeepstackaments FTW

nicnicnic · 24-01-2008 06:48PM

Van Dice wrote: »

you should have shoved though, cos by checking behind you have to see a river,

TY, next time

semibluff · 24-01-2008 07:21PM

DeVore wrote: »

If you want to play "Edit The Post" semibluff... well, I'm game

DeV.

eh . . . i think you have a slight advantage in that field, so i fold!

Russh · 24-01-2008 07:48PM

Tourney players are Tourney players because they play more Tourneys.....

Cash players are cash players because they play more cash....

What do you call a player who plays both.....?

How can one be better than the other...?

It's surely player dependant whether or not they can master both disiplines...I'm not too comfortable with generalising and labelling a player as one or the other(unless they want to be so labelled)....Maybe it's because it's my firm belief that one should (being a relatively experienced and above average player) be capable of beating both games....

Both games have their pro's and con's and different skill sets (as outlined by all posters)....But I can never get this we're better than yo thing....!

I'd agree with what was said earlier about R4D and natural talent....could have a big future ahead, in this game.....

casey212 · 24-01-2008 07:50PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is poker not a game for James Bond wannabes who end up losing their shirt in various emporiums around the town?

Theresalwaysone · 24-01-2008 07:57PM

casey212 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is poker not a game for James Bond wannabes who end up losing their shirt in various emporiums around the town?

100% agree.

semibluff · 24-01-2008 08:06PM

casey212 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is poker not a game for James Bond wannabes who end up losing their shirt in various emporiums around the town?

There's only one emporium in town

and thanks be to god they dont take shirts as collateral . . . theres a bitter wind around grafton street

El Stuntman · 24-01-2008 08:08PM

casey212 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is poker not a game for James Bond wannabes who end up losing their shirt in various emporiums around the town?

no that'd be baccarat

DeVore · 24-01-2008 08:09PM

nicnicnic wrote: »

how about the dubs looking down there noses at the clushies

Ah well, thats different.... those culchies deserve it.

DeV.

Goodluck2me · 24-01-2008 08:10PM

casey212 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is poker not a game for James Bond wannabes who end up losing their shirt in various emporiums around the town?

yeah, this girl is a regular loser

bitch of a game isnt it

casey212 · 24-01-2008 08:12PM

semibluff wrote: »

There's only one emporium in town

and thanks be to god they dont take shirts as collateral . . . theres a bitter wind around grafton street

I assume that you are referring to the "exclusive" "private" members emporium just off grafton street. The same one that has three young lads running up and down grafton street with computers hanging around their necks trying to recruit new members last weekend?

DeVore · 24-01-2008 08:15PM

Casey212 finally just one troll too many. You are the weakest 'tard. Good bye!

DeV.

Hectorjelly · 25-01-2008 12:45AM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

He said he sustains winning mtt results, infers he could destroy the donkaments if he applied himself, lloyd said im levelling obv - well there's the reality. My opr stats are there to show the gulf in mtt ability.

It's a challenge for HJ if he wants to prove himself in mtt. Side bet if he wants a real challenge Just goes back to Tony's idea about the tourny v cash teams, it would be fun.

Of all the stupid posts you have made on this site (and theres been a few)this has to rank as probably the most stupid.

First of all you say

Requiem4adream wrote: »

This is NOT a me v him

In the same post as directly comparing our tournament results. What other possible reason is there to do this?

As far as I can tell, you spend 12 hours a day playing as many ultralow stakes MTTs as you can. This obviously generates a lot of cashes. (I admire your work ethic btw). Then you compare your results this to my Pokerstars record, a site on which ive played 50 tournaments in 3 years. Thats 1.4 tournaments a month. Do you see how this might be the teeniest bit unfair? Even if you were the greatest player alive, and I was the worst, the comparison would tell you absolutely nothing. And the fact that you post it and to show the "gulf" between us in quality shows you are either driven by spite or really have no idea what you are talking about.

Just to lay it out simply so theres at least a small chance he understands,

a) My sample is totally insignificent. 50 tournaments is nothing, as a man who easily plays 50 a week should well know. I play tournaments on other sites as well, so its not even the whole picture
b) When it comes to online mtts, I am out of the loop I dont have much idea how the average MTT donk or pro plays, because my main MTT experience comes from 3 years ago when that was what I mainly played. I also am out of practice. I would really hope for R4ad's sake that this means he has a huge advantage over me any time we play at the moment. An advantage I could quickly negate if I spent a few weeks playing donkaments.

Consistent in all the Requiems threads, and in the posts about him, is the message, look at all these cashes, he must be a fantastic player. Wrong. As anyone with any idea about poker realises, cashes are meaningless. At the end of the day, month or year all that matters for good poker players is your winnings. This means taking your entrance fees into account, to see what your ROI is. So since R4ad is so quick to post readily available stats, lets take a look at his.

His MTT stats from this year:

 Year 2008  	Prizes  	Profit  	ROI  	ABI  	AFS  	R/A  	ITM  	ITM
 Hold'em No Limit  	$58,307 	$40,319 	224% 	$58 	862 	22% 	50/311 	16%
 Hold'em Limit/PL  	$0 	$0 	0% 	$0 	0 	0% 	0/0 	0%
 Omaha  	$0 	<$0 	-100% 	$39 	168 	100% 	0/1 	0%
 Omaha Hi Lo  	$0 	$0 	0% 	$0 	0 	0% 	0/0 	0%
 Other  	$0 	<$0 	-100% 	$17 	64 	0% 	0/1 	0%
   	$58,307 	$40,264 	223% 	$58 	857 	22% 	50/313 	16%
		
Avg. Finish
Early 	7% (10%)
EM 	13% (20%)
Mid. 	46% (40%)
ML 	21% (20%)
Late 	13% (10%)

To sum up, hes played 313 tournaments, cashed in 50 of them, and made $44k. Very nice, way more than ive made this year.

But lets have a look at last years results.


Year 2007  	Prizes  	Profit  	ROI  	ABI  	AFS  	R/A  	ITM  	ITM
 Hold'em No Limit  	$53,725 	<$0 	-19% 	$86 	1057 	32% 	112/774 	14%
 Hold'em Limit/PL  	$913 	$103 	13% 	$116 	275 	0% 	2/7 	29%
 Omaha  	$0 	<$0 	-100% 	$10 	154 	0% 	0/2 	0%
 Omaha Hi Lo  	$0 	<$0 	-100% 	$27 	140 	20% 	0/5 	0%
 Other  	$90 	<$0 	-88% 	$104 	426 	0% 	1/7 	14%
   	$54,728 	<$0 	-20% 	$86 	1037 	31% 	115/795 	14%
		
Avg. Finish
Early 	9% (10%)
EM 	18% (20%)
Mid. 	43% (40%)
ML 	19% (20%)
Late 	11% (10%)

Oh dear. Thats the stats for the entire year. It doesnt even give us a profit or loss so save his embarassment. Luckily it tells us what his roi for the year was though, a mighty -20%. Well someone has to keep the poker economy alive!

Someone posted here that R4ad was perhaps Ireland's best online MTT player. Call me old fashioned, but I would of thought that honour should go to someone who turned a profit in 2007.

Also to look on the bright side, had I played nearly 800 low stakes mtts to lose 10k (or whatever the figure is, it doesnt say) I would probably kill myself, so at least we know hes doesn't get depressed too easily. But then maybe living at home with his mother cheers him up

opr · 25-01-2008 01:02AM

Just when i thought this thread couldn't get any better.

Opr

jbravado · 25-01-2008 01:02AM

opr wrote: »

Just when i thought this thread couldn't get any better.

Opr

.

RedJoker · 25-01-2008 01:16AM

Oh Snap

valor · 25-01-2008 01:35AM

As far as I can tell, you spend 12 hours a day playing as many ultralow stakes MTTs as you can.

this part is my fave

Requiem4adream · 25-01-2008 01:36AM

lol. cool.

Eh yeah you're right 2007 wasn't great. "2007"

everyone feel free to check this if anyone is bored but i played in 2007:

1 week in january,
1 week in febuary,
1 day in May,
1 day in august,
1 week in september.

Then a lot of the next few months.

When i did play, i didnt feel like grinding as much so played some high variance stuff.....the Super Tuesday (1k), $100 rebuy, sunday mil.

In 1 breath you're giving me grief for taking an isolated, microscopic sample then in the next breath you're using a tiny sample of my overall games to try make a point? LOL

I played 795 tournaments in 2007.
In 2006 and 2008 so far combined i played 2,207.

Over the 3,012 tournaments played (without rebuy expenses which are erroneous), i have an ROI of 82%. Over 3,000 tournaments. $112,000 profit. With rebuy expenses $66,000 and 36% ROI. The true figure is closer to $90,000.

Anyway - look, here's the other part of it for me. I've no ambitions to be great at poker. I play because initially i enjoyed the game and for now it's a job, if i make enough to go on a few holidays and get some nice clothes and enjoy my life that's fine by me. I actually dont care how much you make in cash games, nor tournaments, all i've ever cared about is the lack of respect tourny players get and the natural assumption that cash gamers could crush them.

You talk a big game and have no stats to my knowledge to support any mtt ability in the slightest, come back to me when you do apply yourself over a large sample and obv pwn them with ease.

TommyGunne · 25-01-2008 01:38AM

I would be relatively confident that a top cash player could very easily translate his/her skills into MTTs, given suitable experience and study.

I'm also sure any top MTT player should be able to translate his/her skill set to cash given the same conditions.

So what's the big deal???

The only problem I perceive is that it should be harder to determine who the top MTT players are as variance in MTTs is much higher.

Edit: Oh and I love the way this thread is developing!

StraddleFor6 · 25-01-2008 01:49AM

Not a bad comeback Rd. I thought it was check mate for sure.

phantom_lord · 25-01-2008 01:54AM

TommyGunne wrote: »

I'm also sure any top MTT player should be able to translate his/her skill set to cash given the same conditions.

nah they're usually huge donators.

Requiem4adream · 25-01-2008 01:56AM

Hectorjelly wrote: »

Also to look on the bright side, had I played nearly 800 low stakes mtts to lose 10k (or whatever the figure is, it doesnt say) I would probably kill myself, so at least we know hes doesn't get depressed too easily. But then maybe living at home with his mother cheers him up

while you're on a good run of making a d1ck of yourself let me just add a couple of things.

1. My average buy-in in 2007 was $86.

My average buy-in in 2006 and the few weeks in 2008 is $61.

When you play higher buy-ins like super tues and 100re it's tough competition, and -19% ROI wasn't a total disaster for the year. I learned a lot competing with those guys and feel it's small price to pay.

2. Living with my mom is fine by me, i love her and would do anything for her. Sue me. Part of the reason i didnt play as much in 2007 is my mom was sick and my dad had a lung tumour. But anyway listen whatever helps you sleep at night.

TommyGunne · 25-01-2008 02:01AM

phantom_lord wrote: »

nah they're usually huge donators.

Jeez i was just trying to be nice!

But so true....

Hectorjelly · 25-01-2008 02:05AM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

In 1 breath you're giving me grief for taking an isolated, microscopic sample then in the next breath you're using a tiny sample of my overall games to try make a point? LOL

Its an entire years play. That to me seems meaningful. Even if you add in this years winnings, you made 40k in 13 months. Hardly anything to crow about, for someone playing full time. You have the cheek to ask could "sustain consistent winning results in mtt?" Did you mean to write consistent losing results? What does it feel like to lose for a year? Because I just cannot relate to that. The last losing month I had was in 2006, and that certainly sucked.

I only made the post because you continually overstep barriers I didnt even know exist.

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Anyway - look, here's the other part of it for me. I've no ambitions to be great at poker.

Neither would I had I lost for 12 months!

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I play because initially i enjoyed the game and for now it's a job, if i make enough to go on a few holidays and get some nice clothes and enjoy my life that's fine by me. I actually dont care how much you make in cash games, nor tournaments, all i've ever cared about is the lack of respect tourny players get and the natural assumption that cash gamers could crush them.

Yeah we get it, you have a bee in your bonnet. You patiently waited until your year long down swing was over with so you could come here and act like the big man. Well done.

Requiem4adream wrote: »

You talk a big game and have no stats to my knowledge to support any mtt ability in the slightest, come back to me when you do apply yourself over a large sample and obv pwn them with ease.

I played MTTs and STTs solely for a long time, in fact when I left my job I had little or no experience of cash games. I graduated from them on to cash games because I loved the extra complexity. I dont have anything to prove to myself with tournaments, I know that I could be profitable playing them. Perhaps I would never reach the majestic heights of a 12 month losing streak, but you never know, I might get lucky. Anyway the bottom line is that this is a totally worthless discussion. Judge my posts on their worth, and the quality of the advice, not my results. I dont have as much interest in what you think of me as you might imagine, and im certainly not going to waste my time playing tournaments to prove something to a person like you, who doesnt seem capable of a rational analysis of a carrot, never mind poker.

Lastly I have nothing against tournaments or tournament players. As I mentioned before I have a tonne of respect for nic nic nic and Ollyboy and others. One thing I really respect for is not going on about their winnings all the time as well, maybe you could learn more from then than not just open limping the button with AT.

kpnuts · 25-01-2008 02:07AM

RoundTower wrote: »

I think this thread would be more fun if you just let r4d and hj go at it.

============

Stunningly prescient, young man!

RedJoker · 25-01-2008 02:12AM

phantom_lord wrote: »

nah they're usually huge donators.

Sixpeppers mentions this in his latest CR article.

And while I agree with you and SP, it's slightly unfair since, due to the variance of MTTs, a lot of weak players cash big from time to time and will be part of the donators too.

Requiem4adream · 25-01-2008 02:20AM

Hit a little too close to home have i?

Anyway look if you need some coaching for mtt, PM me. I'll see if i have time to help you at an affordable rate for a 1/2nl pro.

As for a losing "year", yes the 3 months solid i played i did finish -19% ROI. I learned a lot in that period and if it helps me to compete in those fields against that standard of player then it's money well spent.

The poker forum - my take

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