The poker forum - my take

Van Dice · 24-01-2008 10:13AM

nicnicnic wrote: »

I played one of those once, I checked behind as I didn't know what to do. Now that I think of it I found the whole experience a little alien and confusing

lol, very good

you should have shoved though, cos by checking behind you have to see a river, and that could cause the MTT software to explode!!!

5starpool · 24-01-2008 10:37AM

Ollieboy wrote: »

Maybe we should have a forum meeting in a pub sometime to discuss poker in general and different views of the game.

I'm sure the topic would stay on track for a long time in a pub alright

DeadParrot · 24-01-2008 12:58PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

My only problem with HJ and we've discuss this at lenght, is why he doesn't move up the levels. When you get to meet HJ, his views and thoughts on poker make for very good discussion and I dont always agree with him, but I understand where he comes from and I can't say he's wrong. Just a different angle on most things.

I imagine he feels if he is crushing a certain level (1/2) for example and can successfully 4+ table at it he feels he doesnt need to move to continue to make all the monies he needs/wants.

Its an understandable concept.

Hectorjelly · 24-01-2008 01:19PM

I dont strictly play 12, i spent last last year moving and up and down from 50 1 to 36 as my poker BR swings. I need to spend less money each month and play more hands.

DeVore · 24-01-2008 01:26PM

I love the idea of a forum meetup in a pub without cards

Secondly, I'm really surprised at HJ saying there isnt a "right answer" all the time. I think he means "we can't always be sure" but there isn't majic or quantum uncertainty here. There IS always a right answer, we just might not be able to find it with limited information.

I DONT mean that we could find it if we knew all cards (and thus had perfect information) but I do mean if we were a deity of some kind and know the exact probabilities of exact ranges etc. That answer exists and it is optimal in the long term. Our goal as players is to approxiamte that as often and as closely as possible.

HJ, I find your comment about the additional information on a player being a "bad thing" very odd. I can only think you mean it makes the calculations more complex (which it does) but this is an information game, any extra information allows us to more accurately approximate the "right answer" (see above). I presume this is what you meant ....

Tournament hands have a capacity to be trivial its true, and with more frequency then cash game hands. Thats at the low end of the spectrum. At the other end, you have tournament decisions which involve a vastly more complex decision process then most cash hands.... "chip utility" is a good example, I could pick a handful more.

I dont want to get into another "tournies vs cash" row, because they are silly imho. To say though that tournaments somehow do away with the idea of long term skill expressing itself and that they are somehow "random" is obviously silly to me.

My view on the tail end of tournies is that they need a different skill set and have a huge emphasis on reads and intuition. Not to mention good old fashioned BALLS.
My view is that I use whatever skill I have at deep stack play to "buy" myself a shot at the title. As Joe O'Neill used to say at the final tables in the Fitz "Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to welcome you all to tonights Lottery".

Its funny and its easy to see why people might think its true, but its not. The same people will more often be in that "lottery" then others, more often "rolling the dice" for the money left by the majority who are already at home in bed. And you can skew the "lottery" in your favour by judicial and frankly violent use of your chips against the "weak". Those who correctly judge their opponents intentions will more often succeed then others.

DeV.

Hectorjelly · 24-01-2008 01:54PM

DeVore wrote: »

Secondly, I'm really surprised at HJ saying there isnt a "right answer" all the time. I think he means "we can't always be sure" but there isn't majic or quantum uncertainty here. There IS always a right answer, we just might not be able to find it with limited information.

I agree, all I was doing was showing the flaws in the OP and I may of somewhat understated my case for the sake of persuasion

DeVore wrote: »

HJ, I find your comment about the additional information on a player being a "bad thing" very odd. I can only think you mean it makes the calculations more complex (which it does) but this is an information game, any extra information allows us to more accurately approximate the "right answer" (see above). I presume this is what you meant ....

I'm not sure what post/sentence you are referring to, what I tried to get across was that the additional information is an additional variable that makes the hand much more complex and adds another layer to the discussion. Of course the extra information is a good thing when analysing or playing a hand!

I actually reread the OP and this is the crux of the whole post

R4ad wrote: »

Consistency of quality in advice is thereby harder to achieve in tournament hands. It's much harder to be concise; you're talking about a wider set of variables than in a cash hand, furthermore a lot of those variables are wide open to interpretation. Constructing concise, relevant theory posts on tournament HH is difficult. A lot of the time i have a really good idea in my head of what i want to say and struggle to articulate that in a presentable concise manner.

What seems clear to me, is that R4ad has some issues about getting into debates about poker theory. Just from the small sample of posts Ive read of his he is very inexact, confused about some of the lingo, unaware of basic concepts, unable to explain anything in under 100 lines and often contradicts himself. This obviously doesnt sit well with him, as he feels he is a excellent player and should be able to contribute more, He looks at the HH forum and sees many great posters making quality posts, and somehow comes to the conclusion that it isnt him thats the problem, its the game he plays. I think its very naive to make the type of post he did lacking any long term experience with cash games.

He mentioned the other day, in between posts trying to wind me up, that he has never read a poker book. One the big advantages that reading poker books and taking part in debates is giving yourself a framework in which to talk and think about poker.

Im not trying to have a go at R4ad here, I think its a shame that he doesn't take part more, and id love to read his tournament strategy posts.

aarymark · 24-01-2008 03:19PM

every 1 here looks out for hj posts because there mostly on the mark and hes definitly improved my game from reading them but heres where it goes wrong r4ad is oviously a very great player a natural who maybe is not the the best poster round here but still makes great posts and should be incouraged 2 post more and not have them torn apart like the wording on a abortion referendom

ps sort out the grammer paragraph ect urselfs

Hectorjelly · 24-01-2008 03:53PM

aarymark wrote: »

every 1 here looks out for hj posts because there mostly on the mark and hes definitly improved my game from reading them but heres where it goes wrong r4ad is oviously a very great player a natural who maybe is not the the best poster round here but still makes great posts and should be incouraged 2 post more and not have them torn apart like the wording on a abortion referendom

ps sort out the grammer paragraph ect urselfs

Very nice analogy!

I think it would be a disservice to this forum (and to him!) if I was to sugar coat my reaction to some of the posts he makes. This OP is a great example.

As for my grammar and paragraphs, well I'm not great at grammar. When I was in Poland I sat in on an English class with my friend, and realised I really know nothing about English. I usually check my posts for obvious spelling and grammatical mistakes, but as long as im comfortable that its readable I click submit. Feel free to correct any mistakes you see me make continually, as the chances are I don't realise. Although a cursory glance @ yor post teLz me yor F4tz mA b BetA off elsewhere.

aarymark · 24-01-2008 04:08PM

no point me trying 2 comeback ur 2 smart instead ill just donk u out of a mtt where all men are created equal

valor · 24-01-2008 04:09PM

HJ, the picture on your blog is funny.

DeVore · 24-01-2008 04:10PM

If you are going to attribute R4D's comments to me could you also attribute me his winning record? kthxbye

DeV.

Hectorjelly · 24-01-2008 04:15PM

aarymark wrote: »

no point me trying 2 comeback ur 2 smart instead ill just donk u out of a mtt where all men are created equal

lol

Hectorjelly · 24-01-2008 04:16PM

DeVore wrote: »

If you are going to attribute R4D's comments to me could you also attribute me his winning record? kthxbye

DeV.

Haha, sorry, edited

connie147 · 24-01-2008 04:25PM

phantom_lord wrote: »

cash game players don't respect tournament players because all you guys have to do is master the two easiest streets in the game, and play with ~20bbs where all your decisions are pretty simple.

I found this thread very interesting. But I have to say that I'm surprised by these comments PL. Are you saying that all cash game players disrespect tourney players or is it just you?

Connie

semibluff · 24-01-2008 04:38PM

Ollieboy wrote: »

Maybe we should have a forum meeting in a pub sometime to discuss poker in general and different views of the game.

DeVore wrote: »

I love the idea of a forum meetup in a pub without cards

Perhaps ill get GJP to sponsor a session for everyone one night mid week - somewhere in camden street??
DeV.

Sounds like one hell of a plan - fair play dev!!!

Chalk it down - (as Joe would say in his best Waterford accent!)

eagle eye · 24-01-2008 04:51PM

I wonder about this so called divide between boardsies, i would imagine that there is a slight divide between those with seriously mathematical minds and those who are not so gifted in the mathematical sphere. But i do not think there is a divide or split in the camp between tournament and cash players. HJ posts a lot of great stuff on here, and he also gives advice to all who ask, but i admit that a lot of the more mathematical stuff is way above my head. And when he gets stuck into a post with two or three similarly mathematically gifted individuals, the thread might become a bit too much for some people who post in the thread and then get answered in terms they do not comprehend.

I have great respect also for Rooney/r4ad and have watched him play on stars quite a bit. But i have watched you posting over the last few days and i am just wondering if there might be a little chip on your shoulder sir. You start this sort of thing just after you have a nice payday on stars. In doing so you have created an impression in my mind that you feel that now that you are in winning mode that you might just be above reproach when you post something like what happened the other day in another post. You apologised for it here but you seem to start another attempt to cause a rift which does not exist at present.

You are a class online tourney player and i wish you well in the future, but please, please stop this persistent murmurings of rifts in the camp.

DeVore · 24-01-2008 04:52PM

If you want to play "Edit The Post" semibluff... well, I'm game

Connie, I seem to recall a stony silence when I posed the question about the skill sets required for cash vs deep-stacked tournaments.

If any "cash players" disrespect "tournament players" (or vice versa, though that doesn't seem to happen as much) its because they have a deep seated inferiority complex in their personalities that they need to rectify by looking down on others. Denigrating one kind of poker to laud your preferred game is dumber then a bag full for rocks.

What next, the Omaha players will start looking down their noses at Hold'em players? :rolleyes:

DeV.

nicnicnic · 24-01-2008 05:18PM

DeVore wrote: »

What next, the Omaha players will start looking down their noses at Hold'em players? :rolleyes:

DeV.

how about the dubs looking down there noses at the clushies

Ste05 · 24-01-2008 05:20PM

nicnicnic wrote: »

how about the dubs looking down there noses at the clushies

Is it not too late for that... :rolleyes:

nicnicnic · 24-01-2008 05:21PM

semibluff wrote: »

Chalk it down boi - (as Joe would say in his best Waterford accent!)

pub focus groups FTW

max_power · 24-01-2008 05:22PM

Pfft, two cards? EZ.

Requiem4adream · 24-01-2008 05:28PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol? You're leveling some of the time right?

?

I dont play much live and i'm not psychic. All i can go by are things like pokerdb and officialpokerrankings. Judging by those your post is the "lol" not mine. 5 cashes in 47 tournaments over 3 years for HJ, clearly a microscopic sample but that's the only evidence i have to work from.

Overall OPR Rank: 249 of 764,450 (all sites) - me
Overall OPR Rank: 82,530 of 764,450 - HJ

This is NOT a me v him (although im sure he'll come back with some sort of comment about me turning it into that), and i dont care about his tourny results, I care about the assumption that cash game players feel the mtt are easy. I asked in earnest could he sustain winning results in them, and i was being nice with the use of the word sustain. Even assuming he does well in live poker in ireland, so what? no offence but the standard i see in live tournament poker in ireland doesnt compare to online. Some very good players but cant compare it to online for various reasons.

If on a skill level a cash game player is far superior to a tournament player in any poker discipline, why do more cash game players not play tournaments? Cue standard answers - too time consuming, too much variance, etc etc. Making money in mtt is difficult, i'll never get rich from it without a lucky big cash, but i do ok and ok is good enough for me.

I'm posting those opr stats to back up something i've long felt - contrary to what you guys might think, i dont believe a good speicalist cash gamer could compete with the top online tournament specialists in mtt. I most definitely do not include myself in the top bracket either, im decent but nowhere near the elite level currently.

EDIT - to put in proper results*

Requiem4adream · 24-01-2008 05:36PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I wonder about this so called divide between boardsies, i would imagine that there is a slight divide between those with seriously mathematical minds and those who are not so gifted in the mathematical sphere. But i do not think there is a divide or split in the camp between tournament and cash players. HJ posts a lot of great stuff on here, and he also gives advice to all who ask, but i admit that a lot of the more mathematical stuff is way above my head. And when he gets stuck into a post with two or three similarly mathematically gifted individuals, the thread might become a bit too much for some people who post in the thread and then get answered in terms they do not comprehend.

I have great respect also for Rooney/r4ad and have watched him play on stars quite a bit. But i have watched you posting over the last few days and i am just wondering if there might be a little chip on your shoulder sir. You start this sort of thing just after you have a nice payday on stars. In doing so you have created an impression in my mind that you feel that now that you are in winning mode that you might just be above reproach when you post something like what happened the other day in another post. You apologised for it here but you seem to start another attempt to cause a rift which does not exist at present.

You are a class online tourney player and i wish you well in the future, but please, please stop this persistent murmurings of rifts in the camp.

I dont like the lack of respect shown to tournament players on this site. "lol donkaments, easy!". Well fine, then go play them consistently and prove it or button it imo. I've never claimed to be a good cash game player ever, nor a good poker player, and if i did so i would want to be damn sure i could support that claim with performances. I cant so i dont make the claim.

Anyway this is getting slightly OT although it is a catch-all topic "the poker forum", so im not sure if it's possible to get OT.

Ironically in all this i wouldnt be above getting some coaching off HJ for cash games in the future if i ever wanted to play them other than to blow off steam

aarymark · 24-01-2008 05:38PM

u really done it now lol r4ad

Hitman Actual · 24-01-2008 05:47PM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

?

I dont play much live and i'm not psychic. All i can go by are things like pokerdb and officialpokerrankings. Judging by those your post is the "lol" not mine. 3 cashes in 26 tournaments over 3 years for HJ, clearly a microscopic sample but that's the only evidence i have to work from.

Overall OPR Rank: 249 of 764,450 (all sites) - me
Overall OPR Rank: 82,530 of 764,450 - HJ

This is NOT a me v him (although im sure he'll come back with some sort of comment about me turning it into that), and i dont care about his tourny results, I care about the assumption that cash game players feel the mtt are easy. I asked in earnest could he sustain winning results in them, and i was being nice with the use of the word sustain. Even assuming he does well in live poker in ireland, so what? no offence but the standard i see in live tournament poker in ireland doesnt compare to online. Some very good players but cant compare it to online for various reasons.

If on a skill level a cash game player is far superior to a tournament player in any poker discipline, why do more cash game players not play tournaments? Cue standard answers - too time consuming, too much variance, etc etc. Making money in mtt is difficult, i'll never get rich from it without a lucky big cash, but i do ok and ok is good enough for me.

I'm posting those opr stats to back up something i've long felt - contrary to what you guys might think, i dont believe a good speicalist cash gamer could compete with the top online tournament specialists in mtt. I most definitely do not include myself in the top bracket either, im decent but nowhere near the elite level currently.

Regarding OPR stats, aren't they calculated over the last 4 months, or something like that? I'd imagine you've played hundreds of tournaments in that time. So putting up your OPR stats just proves that you're a winning tournament player over a decent enough sample (which we knew anyway). But comparing your OPR results to someone who probably has played very few tournaments doesn't really make sense.

Or am I wrong in how OPR works?

Van Dice · 24-01-2008 05:49PM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

why do more cash game players not play tournaments?

easy one, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I'm posting those opr stats to back up something i've long felt - contrary to what you guys might think, i dont believe a good speicalist cash gamer could compete with the top online tournament specialists in mtt.

I agree, I doubt many disagree. But I would contend that if a top-class online cash player applied themselves to MTTs, the results would definitely be there, and they would compete with the elite.

Hitman Actual · 24-01-2008 05:51PM

Van Dice wrote: »

easy one, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I agree, I doubt many disagree. But I would contend that if a top-class online cash player applied themselves to MTTs, the results would definitely be there, and they would compete with the elite.

Exactly. The cash game player could probably adapt to the different skill requirements in MTTs much easier than a regular MTT'er switching to cash.

Requiem4adream · 24-01-2008 05:56PM

lenny_leonard wrote: »

Regarding OPR stats, aren't they calculated over the last 4 months, or something like that? I'd imagine you've played hundreds of tournaments in that time. So putting up your OPR stats just proves that you're a winning tournament player over a decent enough sample (which we knew anyway). But comparing your OPR results to someone who probably has played very few tournaments doesn't really make sense.

Or am I wrong in how OPR works?

You are correct - but in this instance i was actually doing him a favour as he took down his biggest cash in those 3 year period this month in a plo8 tourny.

It's not extremely relevant but i felt it would be unfair to put an actual profit/loss up, it's his business not mine. I wouldnt like to put up stats of how much i've won/lost blowing off steam in cash games, so i respect the reverse. I only put anything up in response to Lloyd.

nicnicnic · 24-01-2008 06:01PM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

You are correct - but in this instance i was actually doing him a favour as he took down his biggest cash in those 3 year period this month in a plo8 tourny.

It's not extremely relevant but i felt it would be unfair to put an actual profit/loss up, it's his business not mine. I wouldnt like to put up stats of how much i've won/lost blowing off steam in cash games, so i respect the reverse. I only put anything up in response to Lloyd.

I'm really not getting the comparisons here, its like comparing say my poker tracker cash stats with say Valor's, ie played hardly none won none Vs played and won loads; but meaningless as I don't play cash cept for an odd dabble

eagle eye · 24-01-2008 06:06PM

Requiem4adream wrote: »

?

I dont play much live and i'm not psychic. All i can go by are things like pokerdb and officialpokerrankings. Judging by those your post is the "lol" not mine. 3 cashes in 26 tournaments over 3 years for HJ, clearly a microscopic sample but that's the only evidence i have to work from.

Overall OPR Rank: 249 of 764,450 (all sites) - me
Overall OPR Rank: 82,530 of 764,450 - HJ

This is NOT a me v him (although im sure he'll come back with some sort of comment about me turning it into that), and i dont care about his tourny results, I care about the assumption that cash game players feel the mtt are easy. I asked in earnest could he sustain winning results in them, and i was being nice with the use of the word sustain. Even assuming he does well in live poker in ireland, so what? no offence but the standard i see in live tournament poker in ireland doesnt compare to online. Some very good players but cant compare it to online for various reasons.

If on a skill level a cash game player is far superior to a tournament player in any poker discipline, why do more cash game players not play tournaments? Cue standard answers - too time consuming, too much variance, etc etc. Making money in mtt is difficult, i'll never get rich from it without a lucky big cash, but i do ok and ok is good enough for me.

I'm posting those opr stats to back up something i've long felt - contrary to what you guys might think, i dont believe a good speicalist cash gamer could compete with the top online tournament specialists in mtt. I most definitely do not include myself in the top bracket either, im decent but nowhere near the elite level currently.

Just on the opr rankings, i have seen greenrizla drop as far down as 101,000th or thereabouts, so they do not really show a true picture of how good a player someone is, and i'm not defending hj as much as just pointing out how these rankings can vary from time to time. a better ranking system would be that of bluff or pokerplayer i think has the other good one.

The poker forum - my take

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