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O'Donoghue Not Guilty of Murder

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Dinter


    If he takes libel action he's an idiot. The papers will crucify him in court because:

    A. They can drag up any old muck they like.
    B. The burden of proof is so much lower.
    C. Any award would be minimal as his reputation is already in shreds.
    D. They have much deeper pockets for legal representation.
    E. Does he really want to go through this again when the media can report under the aegis of court privilege?

    He should decide whether to move on although I do think it'll be great if he gets a big award. Justify my cynicism in our "Justice" system. If he gets an award the Holohans should instigate a civil action against him for issues relating to the death of their son.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dinter wrote: »
    If he takes libel action he's an idiot. The papers will crucify him in court because:

    its not if....he has taken actions against them and as far as i know they will be heard soon enough. i havnt seen exactly what he is taking issue with but id imagine its headlines like "wods semen found on rh's body" which is untrue or "wod molested rh and then killed him" which would also be untrue if things like this were printed he is entitled to comensation. the houlahans im sure are aso entitled to take civil action if they wanted the difference being what they went threw cannot be fixed with money wereas wod to a certain extent can, imo anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Dinter


    No he's instituted proceedings but he may just be hoping for a big cash settlement on the steps of the court. To actually go the whole way seems reckless that's all. Although. . . reckless . . hmmm.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Dinter wrote: »
    If he takes libel action he's an idiot. The papers will crucify him in court because:
    Your post implies that you either don't know what specifically the libel action is for or that he is actually guilty of what they accused him of. The burden of proof may be lower, but they still have to prove something that didn't happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭Agamemnon


    Dinter wrote: »
    If he takes libel action he's an idiot.
    Whoever is advising him probably said: "If you don't take the papers to court, people will always say that there must be truth to the allegations of sexual abuse."

    However, going to court is still an incredibly moronic thing to do. As you say, the papers will crucify him. Also, in his recent statement, O'Donoghue said he regrets the suffering he caused the Holohans. If this is true, the last thing he should be doing is dragging the whole thing up again in court and putting the Holohans through the wringer once more.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Dinter


    Nope it doesn't imply anything. It's purely a post on what I believe to be stupidity in inviting the press to dissect my life. They will destroy whatever reputation he has left.

    They can throw around any circumspection they like. Call any witnesses they like. He may win but I really believe the award will be too little to make it worthwhile.

    Also the burden of proof really is staggeringly lower than in a Criminal case. That's why people settle. You have to weigh your chances of success. Even if his innocence in respect to any of the alleged matters was totally true it does not mean he'll win.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭Dinter


    agamemnon wrote: »
    Whoever is advising him probably said: "If you don't take the papers to court, people will always say that there must be truth to the allegations of sexual abuse."

    However, going to court is still an incredibly moronic thing to do. As you say, the papers will crucify him. Also, in his recent statement, O'Donoghue said he regrets the suffering he caused the Holohans. If this is true, the last thing he should be doing is dragging the whole thing up again in court and putting the Holohans through the wringer once more.

    I'd totally agree with that but in all fairness I would be more afraid of the defendants dragging him through the wringer. Imagine Mrs Holohan having a free rein after being called by one of the papers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Dinter wrote: »
    I'd totally agree with that but in all fairness I would be more afraid of the defendants dragging him through the wringer. Imagine Mrs Holohan having a free rein after being called by one of the papers.

    what is she going to do besides make more unfounded accusations that cannot be printed? the papers cant say well she told us this so we printed it they have to prove that what they said happened actually happened or they have to show that they covered themselves by saying in our opinion this happened. if she was called as a witness i have a feeling she would be on very thin ice with the courts after what happened in the victim impact statement and would possibly do more damage to the papers case then good

    edit also i know if a paper said i was peado there would be no stopping in taking them to task for the false accusations regardless of weather or not i was being advised i had a chance of winning or not. this happens to be one of the reasons im suspicious enough in the madeline mccann case but thats another thread


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭doonothing


    Well, if you knocked a child down in a car accident, would you call yourself a child killer?

    If you tried to burn the body to hide it and didn't admit to it for days, and join the search side by side the family? Personally I think that makes you one sick puppy either way...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Ekancone


    doonothing wrote: »
    If you tried to burn the body to hide it and didn't admit to it for days, and join the search side by side the family? Personally I think that makes you one sick puppy either way...

    You missed my point entirely. Congratulations.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,337 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Well, if you knocked a child down in a car accident, would you call yourself a child killer?

    Depends on how it happened, if you were drunk, speeding, etc. Car is a lethal weapon. So yes you would be a killer.

    If the person didn't look both ways before crossing the road, wasn't paying attention, etc. Then it's the persons fault.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Ekancone


    Boggles wrote: »
    Depends on how it happened, if you were drunk, speeding, etc. Car is a lethal weapon. So yes you would be a killer.

    If the person didn't look both ways before crossing the road, wasn't paying attention, etc. Then it's the persons fault.

    So with the latter example, that person wouldn't be a child killer? Why?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,337 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    So with the latter example, that person wouldn't be a child killer? Why?

    Because it was their own actions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭Eire 4Ever


    doonothing wrote: »
    If you tried to burn the body to hide it and didn't admit to it for days, and join the search side by side the family? Personally I think that makes you one sick puppy either way...

    I agree he is a sicko


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    Boggles wrote: »
    Because it was their own actions.

    probably ot but legally the motorist is always at fault


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Mrs Roy Keane


    Well, if you knocked a child down in a car accident, would you call yourself a child killer?


    Yes killing a child or a person accidential or not still makes you a killer


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Mrs Roy Keane


    Forgiveness can't be obligatory
    No one wants the O'Donoghues hounded, but people can withhold absolution from Wayne, says Eilis O'Hanlon


    Sunday January 20 2008


    HERE they come, the small army of legalistic nitpickers and pettifoggers, dancing around after Wayne O'Donoghue as he's released from the Midlands Prison after serving three minutes -- sorry, years -- for the manslaughter of schoolboy Robert Holohan, all clambering over one another in their race to insist that he has paid his debt to society and should therefore be given every indulgence and the benefit of every doubt as he settles down to his new life.


    Where do they learn to talk like this? Is there some night class they attend at which every ounce of ordinary feeling is squeezed out of them, drop by drop, and gradually replaced with the desiccated dust of pedantry? Some brainwashing machine they're hooked up to which asset-strips their vocabulary of all those words and phrases which make communication on a human level possible, leaving language as nothing more than the cold tools of logical Law Society analysis? Paid his debt to society, indeed.

    "Society" doesn't have anything to do with it. What we should be talking about here is a dead child and a devastated family. The State, in all its formal majesty, may be satisfied with whatever meagre penance was paid by O'Donoghue, but that doesn't mean those who beg to differ have to doff the cap in deference to our superiors and agree that all's now right with the world. We can still think the whole thing stinks. We can still think O'Donoghue got off lightly and that the memory of Robert Holohan has been horribly traduced.

    Anger isn't always a bad thing. Retribution is a bad thing, but when the legal eagles and their media parrots deliberately conflate all feelings of anger at the workings of the law with some primitive thirst for bloody vengeance, they're pulling off the oldest rhetorical con trick in the book. They're shooting down arguments which have not even been made.

    Nobody in their right mind wants the O'Donoghue family hounded by vindictive mobs, like Frankenstein's monster surrounded by torch-bearing villagers. They're just not in the mood to be fobbed off with patronising mantras about the law of the land having spoken and how that should be the end of it. It might be the last word of the law, but it shouldn't be the end of speaking freely about what we think of it. The right not to agree with the law is as important as the law itself.

    The Irish Times editorial went even further following Wayne O'Donoghue's release, quoting Jesus on the subject of forgiveness. Of all the sly sleights of hand, that one takes the biscuit. Bland talk of paying one's debt to society is bad enough without bringing divine forgiveness into the equation. Forgiveness is an entirely personal matter, and if victims say "never, never, never" to it then that's their absolute right, and we should respect them and defend their right not to forgive to our last breath.

    Making vulnerable and broken people feel inadequate because they don't have it in them to forgive those who have violated them and their families -- whatever forgiveness even means in such a context -- is the worst form of emotional bullying.

    Forgiveness is not obligatory. There are times when the urge to forgive so readily could even be construed as unhealthy -- making it seem as if there is no act of wickedness which cannot be undone by therapeutic acts of symbolic catharsis.

    If it happens at all, forgiveness should follow proper punishment, not be a replacement for it. And when the punishment is generally felt not to have been sufficient, then talk of forgiveness is self-indulgent special pleading.

    The family of Robert Holohan even had to listen last week as their child's killer was repeatedly commended for his "courage" in making a statement to the waiting media outside prison.

    Some might say that O'Donoghue's two-minute statement, far from being a selfless act of bravery, was, at best, the very least that could have been expected -- and at worst a meaningless and minimalist gesture.

    "I feel and carry the burden of guilt for my actions each day," he says. Well, so he should. What does he want -- congratulations?

    Deeper than that, there were things very wrong with O'Donoghue's statement -- though not picked up on at the time -- which do not exactly throw a glowing light on the man himself.

    "I fully accept personal responsibility for all of my actions" -- again, I simply don't see how accepting responsibility should be offered as some kind of generous concession to his victim's family, especially when they don't want apologies, they want answers. Saying you accept full responsibility is the easy part. Showing it is what matters.

    And in that regard, what evidence are Mark and Majella Holohan meant to see of O'Donoghue's full acceptance of responsibility when he can still talk, three years later, only of "causing to them the loss of their beloved Robert".

    What kind of spineless weasel words are those? By "causing to them the loss of their beloved Robert", he presumably means "killing Robert". Does someone who genuinely accepts total responsibility still refer to the death of a child in such detached terms, as if it were something which merely happened to Robert rather than something he actively did?

    It's an interesting psychological point which I'm not qualified to answer, but words like that make me uneasy. That part reads like a political statement, not a human one.

    There's also the not inconsiderable matter of O'Donoghue's apparent plea to be left alone. Part of accepting responsibility for terrible deeds is acknowledging that the deeds were indeed so terrible that you have lost the right, however difficult that might be to endure, to make any demands in return for your shouldering of blame. It's not a process of negotiation. You have to accept responsibility, and leave it at that, asking for nothing in return, expecting no favours, no reward, no praise, no sympathy.

    Others can make the case that you should be left in peace if they wish, but somebody who truly accepts responsibility for killing a child would be wise to refrain from being so easily offended or upset. A few tabloid photographers following your car or poking their lenses at you is nothing next to a dead child.

    The law is a side issue here. I'm talking about what happens in a person's own head. Morally speaking, have you truly taken full responsibility for killing a child and then hiding the poor boy's body if you're still capable of feeling affronted by intense media interest?

    What's happened to your sense of priorities if your mind even works that way?

    Wayne O'Donoghue was a lucky young man. He got a light sentence, and has plenty of influential voices speaking up on his behalf now that he's been released.

    The least his supporters can do for Robert Holohan's family is stop trying to paint his killer as some kind of suffering martyr in his own right.

    Come the day that Wayne O'Donoghue has children of his own, he'll realise who the only real victim was here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    there is so much wrong with that article.

    you will notice that the only thing people are taking issue with is the suggestion that he SHOULD be hounded for the rest of life if not sped it all in prison or even better be executed. the article even concedes itself that this is wrong although it does it in a different way by saying "Nobody in their right mind wants the O'Donoghue family hounded by vindictive mobs". well i beg to differ and the evidence is in this very thread.

    everyone has the right to an opinion it is when those opinions interfer with someone else that they become problematic. do i think the holouhan family SHOULD forgive wayne, no not really. would they be better of themselves if they did, certainly. do they deserve our sympathy of course. do the odonoghue family deserve our sympathy, of course. does wayne, no. that does not mean he should be punished for the rest of his life.

    i doubt anyone would call themselves a wayne o'donoghue supporter as the writer puts it so antagonisingly I would call myself a supporter of the legal system however which, in general, serves us very well


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Yeah, that's right, fúck the law. Fúck due process, because when something in the law doesn't go my way, I'm going to throw all my toys out of the pram and have a tantrum. Congratulations, Eilis O'Hanlon, on such an earth-shattering display of your ability to lick your own rectum. I salute you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 658 ✭✭✭Crazy Christ


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    do i think the holouhan family SHOULD forgive wayne, no not really. would they be better of themselves if they did, certainly. do they deserve our sympathy of course. do the odonoghue family deserve our sympathy, of course. does wayne, no. that does not mean he should be punished for the rest of his life.

    I agree, this article is the same old black or white nonsense, as if believing that O'Donoghue should be allowed to get on with his life means you are sympathetic towards him and unsympathetic towards the Holohans. Hate that patronising guff.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭Maximilian


    Yes killing a child or a person accidential or not still makes you a killer

    What about switching off a life support machine? Does that make the switch turner a killer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese



    *sniped Eilis O'Hanlon article*

    That is the biggest load of rubbish i've ever read.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    Yeah, that's right, fúck the law. Fúck due process, because when something in the law doesn't go my way, I'm going to throw all my toys out of the pram and have a tantrum. Congratulations, Eilis O'Hanlon, on such an earth-shattering display of your ability to lick your own rectum. I salute you.

    +1 tbh


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭prendy


    What about switching off a life support machine? Does that make the switch turner a killer?


    coz thats the same?????

    slightly different scenario there!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,367 ✭✭✭✭watna


    God that article was awful. Sensatonalist with a capital S. This is why sometimes I hate newspapers. Why should we pay to read someone having a tantrum in print?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,337 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    do i think the holouhan family SHOULD forgive wayne, no not really. would they be better of themselves if they did, certainly.

    In which way would they be better?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭Maximilian


    prendy wrote: »
    coz thats the same?????

    slightly different scenario there!

    Yes its essentially the same act with the same result. Method and circumstances differ. I have a solution involving trained monkeys however.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,337 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Yeah, that's right, fúck the law. Fúck due process, because when something in the law doesn't go my way, I'm going to throw all my toys out of the pram and have a tantrum. Congratulations, Eilis O'Hanlon, on such an earth-shattering display of your ability to lick your own rectum. I salute you.

    So you think the law is infallible and above reproach?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    No, but if you've got a fairer system I'd love to hear it.

    We have to accept the decisions of our legal system otherwise it's powerless.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,337 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    seamus wrote: »
    No, but if you've got a fairer system I'd love to hear it.

    We have to accept the decisions of our legal system otherwise it's powerless.

    No we don't, we campaign for reform every day. If that was the case we would still be shooting people at the back of the 'jailhouse'.


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