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Questions about moving private to public sector

24

Comments

  • #32
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,202 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Sorry- Tom, what you are describing sounds pretty much parr for the course. Even if you do rock the boat- and get your ideas listened to- people may make happy noises about your proposals, but ultimately nothing will happen (unless you do it all yourself- and if it works out, someone else will take credit for it.....). It can be totally soul destroying.

    You are not serious? I really, really thought this organisation was one of a kind.

    It's a really sad state of affairs. Hence why I got out.


  • #33
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Im seriously contemplating leaving the civil service because to me it doesnt seem to matter if you work hard or not. PMDS is not taken seriously really as far as I can see. Im studying to complete a masters and am stuck at CO level for the foreseeable future with no prospect of promotion, it's very frustrating at the bottom but if you can get into a higher grade I would say it would be great. The working conditions, the people and the benefits are great but you might as well just do the work you have to do and nothing more, the increments are signed off 95% of the time as far as I can see


  • #34
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    EF- you have my sympathies. Qualifications mean absolutely nothing, nor do you even get financial recognition of your educational achievements- even if they are in areas relevant to your job. The problem with being a CO,SO,EO or even AO/HEO- is promotions in the past were pretty much based on seniority, not on merit- so there are a lot of senior people there, who got to where they are solely on the basis of how long they were in the service, not anything else (you had to be very bad indeed or have offended someone very high up- not to get a promotion). Some people do take PMDS seriously- and in some places it works very well. Unfortunately I'd have to agree that in a lot of places it simply doesn't work. I'm depressed.


  • #35
    Kiya
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 135 ✭✭Kiya


    Smccarrick & EF, I understand how you feel..
    I was so depressed with how I was treated in the civil service that I quit. Best decision EVER! (Now if only my current job had flexi time it would be fab!) :D
    I worked in the service for 7 years & my parent dept changed not once but 3 times! Imagine having to deal with brand new managers, hr etc.
    Also, due to some crazy govt idea, we were unable to hire any new staff or have serving staff transfer to us.
    Which meant that as a co I ended up doing the work of my heo who had quit. Few more of co’s in the same boat & we were told when the dept changed that we would be permanently promoted to a higher grade - Never happened.:(

    When new dept still couldn’t get staff transferred, hr agreed to promote us. continued doing the work, (still not getting paid the higher wage) & were assured that after a year doing this we would be "made permanent in a higher grade" (& they’d pay us in arrears the higher salary)
    Unfortunately 2 weeks before this was due to happen, we changed dept again & we were all demoted. :eek: (i now know they never intended to backpay, they obviously knew in advance that the dept was going to change, measly gits)

    This was the final straw for me, Id worked my ass off for years & never had the opportunity to go for promotion, as each time we changed depts., the new one "conveniently" held their competitions before we joined. Very demoralising.
    Now I’ve got a fab job in the private sector. With decent opportunities for promotion & the salary is much better. You also get treated with a lot more respect.
    Plus it was a decent salary, bout 15k more than my measly civil service salary.

    And to those of you ignorant of the realities of benchmarking etc...
    Only the higher grades, like upper management who come away with the big increases in salary.
    The lower grades receive the lowest % of increases. and believe me, theyre the ones who need it most.

    I mean look at the situation with the firemen etc, have you seen their basic salary???? :mad:
    For people who put their lives on the line for a miserable €455.21 a week (so 23,670 before tax)!
    And the gov have decided to increase their own wages by €38K.
    Its sick. I never voted for those greedy gits to increase their wages.. did you?


  • #36
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    smccarrick wrote: »
    EF- you have my sympathies. Qualifications mean absolutely nothing, nor do you even get financial recognition of your educational achievements- even if they are in areas relevant to your job. The problem with being a CO,SO,EO or even AO/HEO- is promotions in the past were pretty much based on seniority, not on merit- so there are a lot of senior people there, who got to where they are solely on the basis of how long they were in the service, not anything else (you had to be very bad indeed or have offended someone very high up- not to get a promotion). Some people do take PMDS seriously- and in some places it works very well. Unfortunately I'd have to agree that in a lot of places it simply doesn't work. I'm depressed.

    I couldnt agree more. My AP is absolutely useless. He is meant to attend court for hearings but he sends the EO's down in case he's asked a question. It's him that gets all the bonuses and praise for having such a productive and efficient section but he just drinks tea and reads the paper. A HEO in the section beside me is regularly bi-passed i.e things go from CO/EO straight to AP level because the HEO is so incompetent..ill start sending my CV around I think!


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  • #37
    J.S. Pill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭J.S. Pill


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    The Public Service recruitment is very open and transparent unlike the private sector where employers are more or less free to appoint whom they wish.

    wishful thinking

    pull is still very much prevalent at clerical level for local authorities, state agencies, university admin and the like.


  • #38
    inarut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭inarut


    In the cs, qualifications and experience mean nothing to the extent that someone could study for a PhD and work overtime and flat out with consistently good PMDS ratings at the same time but still be overlooked for promotion while someone else who lies horizontal all day long without any relevant experience or qualifications gets the nod.


  • #39
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    green123 wrote: »
    its about who you know, rather than what you know
    Load of crap. And so are other points here made by people who obviously don't know what they're talking about. I went for a clerical position in a local authority where my father was a senior staff member. I made number 47 in a panel of 50 and didn't get an offer until a year later. And it was a dreadful job too - cashier on the service charges desk. The office was absolutely Dickensian and the desk I was at was so badly designed I started to develop back problems. And I was constantly being reminded that just because my father was senior didn't mean I was going to get any special treatment - not that I ever tried to use it to my advantage or anything. People just kept throwing it at me.
    All those who badmouth public servants: you can go for jobs in the public sector too. What's stopping you?


  • #40
    Bob in Belfast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 216 ✭✭Bob in Belfast


    Dudess wrote: »
    Load of crap. And so are other points here made by people who obviously don't know what they're talking about. I went for a clerical position in a local authority where my father was a senior staff member. I made number 47 in a panel of 50 and didn't get an offer until a year later. And it was a dreadful job too - cashier on the service charges desk. The office was absolutely Dickensian and the desk I was at was so badly designed I started to develop back problems. And I was constantly being reminded that just because my father was senior didn't mean I was going to get any special treatment - not that I ever tried to use it to my advantage or anything. People just kept throwing it at me.
    All those who badmouth public servants: you can go for jobs in the public sector too. What's stopping you?


    No it's not a 'load of crap' maybe you didn't have the qualities that they were looking for.
    But you say you still got the job!!!
    And then you didn't like the job?
    The office furniture wasn't up to standard and it gave you back ache
    maybe it wasn't the furnitures fault, maybe it was your size E cups.:(


  • #41
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I said "load of crap" to someone who claimed "it's who you know not what you know". But you're obviously just trying to wind me up as usual, so I really shouldn't be dignifying your post. But anyway, I'm doing so. Silly me...


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  • #42
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Dudess wrote: »
    I said "load of crap" to someone who claimed "it's who you know not what you know". But you're obviously just trying to wind me up as usual, so I really shouldn't be dignifying your post. But anyway, I'm doing so. Silly me...

    looks like the whole of boards is just out to get you :rolleyes:


  • #43
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Oh no, just Bob in Belfast. And he's not just "out to get" me, he's constantly posting antagonistic comments directed at various people. He's not doing it on After Hours because he knows I, or one of the other mods, will ban him, so he's just picking random other forums. He swore he'd quit it a couple of weeks ago, so we all predicted he'd lay off for a short while and then get back to it. How right we were! Bob, you could try at least being just a LITTLE less predictable.


  • #44
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Dudess wrote: »
    Actually ntlbell, you're fairly similar. Try being civil on Boards - you'll find it makes for a pleasant experience sweetie. xx

    I'm mostly very civil.

    I don't see in this thread were I wasn't?

    It seems you seem to have lost the ability of perception on boards and constantly change what people said to what you think they said causing petty arguments.

    I've enjoyed boards for many a year and I'm sure you don't have time to follow me around but the majority of my posts are in technical forums offering help and advice where I can.

    But thanks for the tip I'll work on being a more civil poster.


  • #45
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    What exactly is civil about this?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54860915&postcount=42

    And how exactly could it be misconstrued? (which is what you claim I tend to do).


  • #46
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Dudess wrote: »
    What exactly is civil about this?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54860915&postcount=42

    And how exactly could it be misconstrued? (which is what you claim I tend to do).

    How was it uncivil?

    I was pointing out it seems to a common thing with you assuming people say things with nothing but with the intention to annoy you. I'm referring to your post to bob that he was out to "annoy" you.


  • #47
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Nah, you've got me all wrong - honest.

    Bob's only here to antagonise/abuse people (note: lots of people, not just me!) nothing more. Heh, ironing: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54730937&postcount=35

    But back on topic: I personally wouldn't work in the public sector as the jobs can be very tedious and can involve dealing with very difficult members of the public. It's not all rosy as people who have never worked there seem to think.


  • #48
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    And we're not getting any payrise now under benchmarking! Way to motivate us


  • #49
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    EF wrote: »
    And we're not getting any payrise now under benchmarking! Way to motivate us
    See this is the problem with benchmarking - the public service sem to think it's almost mandatory and are now grumbling when they didn't get it. This is in spite of other raises that they'll still get anyway and all the aforementioned perks.


  • #50
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    I dont think it should be mandatory that we get a pay rise but given the circumstances and the fact that the upper grades i.e. PO level, secretary general and the politicians have been awarded pay increases and those at the bottom are left with nothing..it really is bad management in my opinion.


  • #51
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    EF wrote: »
    I dont think it should be mandatory that we get a pay rise but given the circumstances and the fact that the upper grades i.e. PO level, secretary general and the politicians have been awarded pay increases and those at the bottom are left with nothing..it really is bad management in my opinion.

    forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the benchmarking done by an independant 3rd party?

    If so how is it down to bad management?


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  • #52
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Point taken, it is bad policy then in my opinion to award the top grades a pay rise and deny the rank and file anything


  • #53
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,394 ✭✭✭markpb


    EF wrote: »
    Point taken, it is bad policy then in my opinion to award the top grades a pay rise and deny the rank and file anything

    IMHO it's bad policy to award pay rises to entire groups. It leads to exactly the mess we have at the moment. They should be done on an individual bases with reference to grades in the company.

    If an individual works hard, they should get a good raise. If they don't, they should get a cost of living increase. There's no reason for a workers pay rise to be dependant on that of their boses or CEOs.


  • #54
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    EF wrote: »
    Point taken, it is bad policy then in my opinion to award the top grades a pay rise and deny the rank and file anything
    Yes, the top grades should have got nothing as well - that would be fair. Instead they've undermined the process and just pissed off the levels below them who want some more and annoyed the private sector who don't get any such guarantees.


  • #55
    jkehoe101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭jkehoe101


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    The Public Service recruitment is very open and transparent unlike the private sector where employers are more or less free to appoint whom they wish.

    I don't agree. I've seen so called recruitment interviews whereby external people were made to come in for interviews even though the decision had already been made that an internal person would be getting the post. This was not a once off occurance.

    There are also quite a few people in this institution that came in on a 1 week contract, no education in the sector they came in on and are now a fully fledged staff memebr of the organisation without ever doing any interviews.

    I could go on.

    It's as some people above have said...it's definitely WHO you know.


  • #56
    Mrs. MacGyver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭Mrs. MacGyver


    EF wrote: »
    I couldnt agree more. My AP is absolutely useless. He is meant to attend court for hearings but he sends the EO's down in case he's asked a question. It's him that gets all the bonuses and praise for having such a productive and efficient section but he just drinks tea and reads the paper. A HEO in the section beside me is regularly bi-passed i.e things go from CO/EO straight to AP level because the HEO is so incompetent..ill start sending my CV around I think!

    Sorry to hear that that occurs in your section. In my Dept. (which you can probably guess by now) theres good dialogue in my section. The EO's get recognition for things done and i actually was able to use my initiative to create something that benefits opther people by pitching it to myAP. I'm lucky in that I have an encouraging HEO in my section. The civil service isn't that bad. Perhaps i'm strange in that i actually enjoy going to work in the morning and actually get job satisfaction. The flexi leave is great and is handy for heading home at weekends. I was also out on sick leave for a while and they were very supportinve indeed. I worked briefly in private sector and i found it desperate , even suffocating so i'm actually glad i'm in the public service and have no complaints!


  • #57
    J.S. Pill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭J.S. Pill


    Dudess wrote: »
    Load of crap. And so are other points here made by people who obviously don't know what they're talking about.

    I think green123 may have been just a little bit blunt but you shouldn't be so dismissive. I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that 'its not what you know its who you know' has at least some degree of truth...


  • #58
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    EF wrote: »
    Point taken, it is bad policy then in my opinion to award the top grades a pay rise and deny the rank and file anything

    Ye see, the problem is they are "benchmarking" against the Private Sector (aka the Wealth Generating Sector [great weasel-words!:)]) where it is SOP for the alpha-apes to feast like lords of the jungle on bonuses/golden-handshakes etc while their monkey minions get to nibble on mouldy peanut shells.

    I'd agree that wage restraint is needed in the public sector but the above does create a quite farcical situation where the overall "bosses" (the politicians) of the public sector have to tell the rest to pull in their belts between the mouthfuls of slop they've just scooped from the trough...


  • #59
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    EF wrote: »
    And we're not getting any payrise now under benchmarking! Way to motivate us
    F**king delighted. You (plural, not singular) **** get a pay rise no matter how little you work, when the rest of us work our asses off to get a pay increase smaller than what you get for twiddling your thumbs!

    =-=

    Someone mentioned about dealing with the public: nearly every job so far is "dealing with the public", from shop work, to pub work, to tech support work... so I can't see it being all that hard. Saying that, when I get "the call" in (lets see, I did the test October last, so ooo... June or July) for an interview, I'll go for tech support or bust. No way I work my ass off, get lots of certs, and end up stacking books in a library (and yes, I'm aware that it's a well paying job, but it ain't what I want).

    =-=

    Oh, and if they really do benchmark against the private, does that mean when our wages go down to f**k all, theirs do to? No? Ah well... :mad:


  • #60
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    J.S. Pill wrote: »
    I think green123 may have been just a little bit blunt but you shouldn't be so dismissive. I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that 'its not what you know its who you know' has at least some degree of truth...
    Well ok, maybe it depends on what area in the public service you're in - whether it's the HSE, a city council, county council, the civil service etc.
    the_syco wrote: »
    F**king delighted. You (plural, not singular) **** get a pay rise no matter how little you work, when the rest of us work our asses off to get a pay increase smaller than what you get for twiddling your thumbs!
    You're going for a job there so you must be quite happy to join those "****".
    Someone mentioned about dealing with the public: nearly every job so far is "dealing with the public"
    Well the type of dealing with the public that involves, for instance, people looking for housing/transfers, is a lot more difficult than retail - I've worked in both. Especially when they wait outside for you and greet you after work with their skanger families for not being fast enough to give them keys to a new house (even though it's not within your powers)...


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  • #61
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,202 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    the_syco wrote: »
    F**king delighted. You (plural, not singular) **** get a pay rise no matter how little you work, when the rest of us work our asses off to get a pay increase smaller than what you get for twiddling your thumbs!

    While I might not agree with the manner in which he expressed it, I have to agree with the_syco on this one. From my experiences in the Public Sector, I could quite happily have sat back and done nothing all day every day and still got the payrises.

    It's unheard of in the Real World.


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