Should Traditions be Respected ?

therecklessone, if you have a problem with religious celebration in such a mild manner as that of a nativity play in schools which both physically belong to and are substantially funded by religious orders, then perhaps you're in the wrong place. Having attended a roman catholic primary and secondary school, I have no problem whatsoever considering a nativity play in the light in which most of the children who take part see it - a chance to get out of formal classes and have a bit of fun, performing for their parents and friends, and celebrating Christmas. Now I don't mean that in a bible-thumping manner, most children see it as the lead up to Santa Claus, and I don't see a problem in that either, they're children and religion should be something they learn about without it being shoved down their throats. But if someone is entitled to complain about, for example, a crib being displayed in a public place or a nativity play taking place in a school, and as a result have it removed or cancelled, then surely others are allowed to complain about its absence, and have it reinstated. Why should we bend the few parts of our culture that aren't completely crap out of shape because it puts someone's nose out of joint when it is such an innocuous tradition? Santa Claus was originally a religious figure, should he be shelved worldwide in favour of those who have a problem with the Catholic faith?

I think it's a disgrace. If anything multi-cultural elements could be worked into our traditions rather than completely abolishing our culture in favour of others. We just don't have the stones to support our own culture in favour of whatever we're told to do by others. I think that's a big, steamy pile of ****e, to be honest.

Blush_01 wrote: »

therecklessone, if you have a problem with religious celebration in such a mild manner as that of a nativity play in schools which both physically belong to and are substantially funded by religious orders, then perhaps you're in the wrong place.

Born in Ireland to Irish parents, as they were, as were their grandparents etc etc.

I don't need your approval to belong here. :mad:

I have no problem with religious institutions celebrating the fundamental tenets of their belief system. I have a problem with the education system of this country being left to the administration of religious orders, but then we are all guilty of allowing that to happen.

I believe this debate was sparked by the decision of a creche to cancel their nativity play, a creche which is ultimately a business, not a religious order. I fail to see why the children of non-Christians should be expected to participate in a religious play by a business. Would you accept a childminder teaching your children about a religion that you do not believe in?

Article 44 of Bunreach na hEireann states Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.. I take that to mean I am free to not practise any organised religion.

therecklessone wrote: »

I fail to see why the children of non-Christians should be expected to participate in a religious play by a business.

On the flip side of the coin, should the children of Christians be denied the opportunity to take part in the play simply because the parents of other children did not want their children appearing in the play?

If the play could be put on with only the children whose parents were willing to allow them to take part while alternative activities were arranged for the other children, do you think that they should be allowed to put on the play? Nobody would be forcing the non-Christians to participate, or even to watch the play.

therecklessone wrote: »

Article 44 of Bunreach na hEireann states Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.. I take that to mean I am free to not practise any organised religion.

Precisely. However, it does not entitle you to prevent somebody else from practicing their religion simply because you do not agree with it.

I don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day. Should the parades be cancelled and the decorations banned for fear of offending me? Should all shops, amenities, schools, offices, etc, be forced to stay open for my benefit?

HollyB wrote: »

On the flip side of the coin, should the children of Christians be denied the opportunity to take part in the play simply because the parents of other children did not want their children appearing in the play?

I would question the right of the creche to put on a nativity play in the first place...have they stated to prospective customers that the creche would follow a Christian ethos? Did they make clear to all of their new customers that they would put on a nativity play as part of their Christmas celebrations? Did they canvass customer opinion before deciding to do so?

HollyB wrote: »

If the play could be put on with only the children whose parents were willing to allow them to take part while alternative activities were arranged for the other children, do you think that they should be allowed to put on the play? Nobody would be forcing the non-Christians to participate, or even to watch the play.

As a person who spent eight years in school with the children of an atheist neighbour who were teased unmercifully (often ignorantly referred to as pagans) I would prefer that children were not separated by religion at any point during their time in a creche, but if the creche were to make adequate arrangements to accomodate the non-Christian children then it would be an acceptable compromise. Of course, the only people who should have a say in such a compromise are the parents of children attending any such creche. By the way, teling the parents of non-Christian children to keep their kids out on the day of the performance is not an adequate arrangement.

HollyB wrote: »

Precisely. However, it does not entitle you to prevent somebody else from practicing their religion simply because you do not agree with it.

I'm not aware of anyone being prevented from practising their religion...the parents of Christian children are free to arrange a nativity play of their own? They could always try the rather obvious route of bringing their children to a church and explaining the significance of Christmas there? I know the local church back home always had a crib, and both of my parents took me to see it during the Christmas period when I was a kid.

You know, there's nothing to stop a person opening a creche with a clearly stated Christian ethos. Maybe some of the Daily Mail "it's a disgrace" types should pick that ball up and run with it.

Romero wrote: »

Just to add to this I was listening to Kevin Myers on the George Hook show on Newstalk he was on about RTE not carrying the Viratas ad for selling Cribs, and said what a lot of us have said which is its part of the Irish tradition and that most of the immigrants don't mind it as they are all Europeans with a christian background, he also spoke about the UK experience on bending over backwards in not offending other ethnic groups by outlawing Christmas in some cities (Birmingham he mentioned) and that it looks like Ireland are heading down the same road. He said most immigrants don't mind our traditions and they are not offended, but he said as in the UK, if you keep going on about offending them, then they will get it into their head that it is offensive and it will cause cultural divides in society. As one Texter to the show said what next the outlawing of Saint Patricks day? Looks like we are heading down that road
By the way most texters are in agreement with Mr Myers on this issue. And I for one agree with him!

Very easily. Once you start down that road, it is very difficult to stop or to turn back.

Personally, I think that if somebody chooses to come to a country where they know that the majority of the population are Christian (officially, at any rate) and where Christian holidays are celebrated, they have no business complaining about Christian holidays. I'm not saying that when in Rome, they should have to do as the Romans do - if they don't want to celebrate Christmas themselves, they don't have to - but they don't have the right to demand that the Romans change to accommodate them.

If they genuinely cannot tolerate the celebration of Christmas/Easter/St. Patrick's Day, etc, there are countries which do not celebrate those holidays.

Mordeth wrote: »

hollyb, romero... as a fellow Roman let me assure you. I want your christian bull**** taken out of the public square as much as the next muslim, jew, dirty black foreign bastard, polish, whatever.

Sounds like a broken record, but few can match for ignorant insults.:mad:

marcsignal wrote: »

This thread is a tangent from the existing one regarding the 'Creche Nativity Play' issue.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055194751

So how do you all feel about Traditions in Ireland, should they be Respected/Preserved ?
Have you respected the Traditions of foreign Countries when you've visited/lived there ?

I think there shouldn't be any PC issue about Traditions/Customs being respected / preserved in Ireland, and I absolutely respect the Traditions/Customs of any other countries I've ever visited in the past, or may visit in the future.
Opinions please

i think its only proper to respect other people's traditions, even if you dont agree with them.

to a point of course, i mean, the tradition of canabalism isnt something i agree with

HollyB wrote: »

If the play could be put on with only the children whose parents were willing to allow them to take part while alternative activities were arranged for the other children, do you think that they should be allowed to put on the play? Nobody would be forcing the non-Christians to participate, or even to watch the play.

You mean like forced segregation.:eek: (Anyway, wouldnt the equitable solution be to put on a second secular play for those who didnt want to be part of the nativity but im not suggesting that)

All thats going down the road of sectarianism, something we know causes very bad problems.

How about we just try and integrate and evolve, what's so bad about progress?

marcsignal wrote: »

I just felt it started to drift from the Nativity specifically, to a general discussion about religion.

You didnt see a conversation about the nativity as being a religious discussion? :eek: On what grounds did you think people would object to the nativity?

Traditions evolve, sure, but there's a difference between a tradition evolving at it's own speed, and a noisy minority trying to eradicate it.

Either things evolve or they dont. There is no set pace for cultural evolution. Its stagnant for long times then a catalyst can cause exponential growth.

It's true to say the majority are not always right i suppose, but i'm genuinely interested/curious to know what historical atrocities you are refering to ?

I can think of dozens of examples, I suppose the most often quoted one is: "The mob stoned Plato"

Another really obvious one would be slavery; accepted in most civilisations for thousands of years.
Prime example of a tradition that changed rapidly