Creches ban Nativity play because of complaints by Non-Christian Parents

po0k · 04-12-2007 10:51AM

Only confuses the little tikes.

Rob_l · 04-12-2007 10:52AM

Hagar wrote: »

That was the special status of the Roman Catholic Church. It was removed, but it didn't change the traditions of the vast majority of Irish people.

Tradition is fine and good
but is there a place for these christian traditions in the education of the young which is surely what creches are for. I think is more the question

Personally I feel it is of little consequence I was brought up with them but feel no obligation to the church. However I can understand some parents objections but surely if they feel it is not what they want they can withdraw their children from participating rather than ban the act entirely

deman · 04-12-2007 10:53AM

seamus wrote: »

5th of January 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

As Hagar already said, that was the position of the Roman Catholic Church conceding its "special position" to other named religious denominations.

homah_7ft · 04-12-2007 10:57AM

Rob_l wrote: »

Tradition is fine and good
but is there a place for these christian traditions in the education of the young which is surely what creches are for. I think is more the question

Personally I feel it is of little consequence I was brought up with them but feel no obligation to the church. However I can understand some parents objections but surely if they feel it is not what they want they can withdraw their children from participating rather than ban the act entirely

As Seamus, you then have religious segregation. Why not just do some other activity and the parents who want their children to perform a nativity play can organise it.

Hagar · 04-12-2007 10:57AM

Rob_l wrote: »

Tradition is fine and good
but is there a place for these christian traditions in the education of the young which is surely what creches are for. I think is more the question

Unless I'm mistaken the prime use of creches is child minding while parents work.
If they are a valid part of our education system why not use them to pass on our traditions?

homah_7ft · 04-12-2007 10:58AM

Hagar wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken the prime use of creches is child minding while parents work.
If they are a valid part of our education system why not use them to pass on our traditions?

Is it really one of "Our" traditions. Surely they should be shown how to spend money at christmas.

seamus · 04-12-2007 11:01AM

deman wrote: »

As Hagar already said, that was the position of the Roman Catholic Church conceding its "special position" to other named religious denominations.

Yes...thereby removing any official affiliation with the RC church.

Officially, the state has no religion. 85% of its habitants listed themselves on the census as roman catholic, but in less formal/mammy-filled polls, less than 50% call themselves practising catholics.

I wouldn't deny that the population and its government maintain christian values, but the actual beliefs are gone by the wayside. Christmas has very little to do with Jesus any more. Most people seem to be pissed about this nativity thing purely because they remember doing one as a child and they want to see their little Fiachra dressed up as a shepherd so they can put the video on youtube and email their mates the link to say "Isn't he soooo cute?".

Look, the main problem here is that most of us were educated in public schools that were intertwined with the local church. Thus, we associate all these religious things, such as nativity, communion, confirmation etc, with going to primary school.
It's the *church* who should take responsibility for the religious education and indoctrination of its community and who should organise the nativity. The school shouldn't be involved at all. That way, parents who want their children to participate have the choice to take them to church and everyone else can get on with their lives.

Hagar · 04-12-2007 11:02AM

Maybe I'm a little biased. I was one of the little angels* who sang for the Lord Mayor in the Mansion House as did my younger sister and brother in their turn. I suppose we should give that up too although I can't see the harm it did us.

* Yes I was young and innocent once, a long, long time ago.

robinph · 04-12-2007 11:03AM

seamus wrote: »

The train of thought on this one seems obvious;

1. All kids are to participate in a nativity play.
2. Some over-zealous religious parent complains about it
3. The suggestion is made that some kids can choose to do the play while others do something else
4. Creche decides that segregating the children along religious lines probably isn't a good idea, not to mention the extra resources required to split the class
5. Nativity is scrapped.

Apart from point 2 being a parent that might be about right. It's far more likely to be decided by amongst the christian teachers of the creche/ school though, and probably not for any PC type reason.

monkeyfudge · 04-12-2007 11:06AM

Hagar wrote: »

I suppose we should give that up too although I can't see the harm it did us.

Well you believe in catholicism now don't you? That could be considered harmful.

I played a roman centurion in my nativity as a child... that was pretty cool.

seamus · 04-12-2007 11:09AM

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Well you believe in catholicism now don't you? That could be considered harmful.

I played a roman centurion in my nativity as a child... that was pretty cool.

I remember playing an elf, wearing green tights. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the nativity, but it's hard to fit 30 kids into a play featuring 3 wise men, a couple and a baby, so you never know what plot devices they come up with.

Hagar · 04-12-2007 11:10AM

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Well you believe in catholicism now don't you? That could be considered harmful.

I played a roman centurion in my nativity as a child... that was pretty cool.

No. I'm an Atheist but I still love Christmas.

Wishbone Ash · 04-12-2007 11:10AM

KingOfFairview wrote: »

I'd want to see a source for this before I'd get too up in arms, or even the names of some of the people who have complained, because this type of thing sounds suspiciously like the old "They all get free cars" etc BS... I've heard this story in many varioations over the years and I've yet to hear a verifiable source fo it.

robinph wrote: »

Link to the story and the name of the creche that is doing this, otherwise its just a made up story inorder to get you all upset about "PC'ness gone mad".

It was discussed on Liveline (Radio 1 - Joe Duffy) yesterday at the behest of an upset parent. The creche issued a statement confirming the withdrawal from the traditional nativity play as a result of objections from non-Christian parents.

I don't think there is any reason to disbelieve the matter.

citytillidie · 04-12-2007 11:31AM

Just here and the UK have got to PC for all the immigrants that have come to these shores. If they want to come then they should not complain about our socity and way of life, and the Christmas Nativity play is part of everyones life here from a young age.

Next they will be trying to ban Christmas Carols just because some of them say Jesus.

I heard on the news that over in England some coucil have had to change the names of the lights they put up from Christmas light to Winter lights now thats just stupid.

robinph · 04-12-2007 11:32AM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It was discussed on Liveline (Radio 1 - Joe Duffy) yesterday at the behest of an upset parent. The creche issued a statement confirming the withdrawal from the traditional nativity play as a result of objections from non-Christian parents.

I don't think there is any reason to disbelieve the matter.

I'm still not convinced, even that UK Telegraph article that was trying to present itself as proof of the nativity being cancelled due to non-christian parents complaints was actually just the results of a survey amongst schools as to what play they were doing this year and then another story built around it.

Even allowing for the particular creche/ school possibly wanting to stay anonymous I've yet to see anything that suggests this place really exists and is not just a figment of someones imagination.

robinph · 04-12-2007 11:37AM

citytillidie wrote: »

I heard on the news that over in England some coucil have had to change the names of the lights they put up from Christmas light to Winter lights now thats just stupid.

That same story is just being recycled from years ago:
Beeb
...and is a load of rubbish. No body complained, just some over eager junior muppet in the council decided that someone should be offeneded so changed the wording on a poster.

KingOfFairview · 04-12-2007 12:07PM

As said before my opnion on this type of thig is IF true ridiculous, but dont believe everything you hear, especially when it comes to immigrants because a lot of people have agendas on it. check the likelyhood of a story before becoming outraged like a retired, port-guzzling English Sergeant Major over it.

Dave! · 04-12-2007 12:21PM

Romero wrote: »

Heard this on the radio and it made me angry, apparantly a chain of creches has decided to cancel this years nativity play following complaints from Non-Cristian (Non-national) parents. This is a bloody disgrace if you ask me. Its an innocent tradition that does no harm to any of the children, and to me it builds up divides in our society, there was even a jewish lady on the radio sayin that she did it as a child and enjoyed it even though it was not part of the Jewish religion. Seriosly if people want to come here and intergrate then there needs to be some give and take in fitting in to Irish society. The Creche management should be ashamed of themselves for bowing to the pressure of a small minority of these parents. :mad:

i. How do you know who complained? You haven't provided a source containing that information
ii. The vast majority of our immigrants are Polish, and Poland has a huge Roman Catholic population. Which "non-nationals" (pretty silly term) do you think are lodging these complaints exactly?

04-12-2007 12:22PM

Hagar wrote: »

How will you feel when your local supermarket stops selling pork and bacon because its alienates some paying customers?

That would never happen. A supermarket would always accommodate their customers.. my local dunnes has a special polish section now.

Perhaps this is what the creches should do and accommodate for other religions. I mean, it would definately add to the normally boring Nativity plays, and would be educational for the youngins too.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4 · 04-12-2007 12:43PM

Romero wrote: »

Heard this on the radio and it made me angry, apparantly a chain of creches has decided to cancel this years nativity play following complaints from Non-Cristian (Non-national) parents. This is a bloody disgrace if you ask me. Its an innocent tradition that does no harm to any of the children, and to me it builds up divides in our society, there was even a jewish lady on the radio sayin that she did it as a child and enjoyed it even though it was not part of the Jewish religion. Seriosly if people want to come here and intergrate then there needs to be some give and take in fitting in to Irish society. The Creche management should be ashamed of themselves for bowing to the pressure of a small minority of these parents. :mad:

Its very hard for me to give thanks to my gods in this country. Zeus, Thor and the Space lizzard queen will have their vengence, in this life or the next

Nevada · 04-12-2007 12:47PM

Sizzler wrote: »

And we back down, fcuking ridiculous !

If we travel to another country we have the good grace to respect their laws and traditions but when the shoe is on the other foot we bend over and say 'do your worst lads' :mad:

I'd love to know what creche it was so I can give them a call....

Try calling "Giraffe"

Kipperhell · 04-12-2007 01:00PM

I think this is completely right. Religion should not be supported unless specifically said to be. Unless this creche specified it was a Christian based it has no place to bring religion into it.
It may be a loss for some but the freedom from religion being hoisted onto your child is worth it. It isn't a PC issue just made up.

Mr. CooL ICE · 04-12-2007 01:17PM

homah_7ft wrote: »

Err I would feel terrible if it were to happen. A creche is not a supermarket.

Is it not? Where do people buy babies so?

In fairness, I don't really care what play is being practised in crèches. Providing a play for some kids while other kids do 'other stuff' still isn't fair IMO. It is possibly a large part in a child's development that something like a play is something to work on and feel proud of taking part in when it has been performed in front of a crowd of parents.

I recall when I was practising my holy communion in 1st class in school, there were two repeats and a Muslim kid who used to have to sit at the back of the class/church and wait while everyone else practised hymns and stuff. And this was about twice a week for about 3 months. While they probably had a laugh while we were having prayers drilled into us, it still isn't a good idea overall

SheroN · 04-12-2007 01:18PM

If you're not a Christian, what's the difference in acting out the Nativity or snow white and the 7 dwarves? You would believe both to be works of fiction.

Kipperhell · 04-12-2007 01:44PM

SheroN wrote: »

If you're not a Christian, what's the difference in acting out the Nativity or snow white and the 7 dwarves? You would believe both to be works of fiction.

Do you really think it will said that it is a made up story when they are teaching them the story?
Kids will also argue if one is being told by their parents the story is true when another is told it is not.

*Page* · 04-12-2007 01:47PM

I wonder if said facility is also not letting Santa come into see the children?

Fratton Fred · 04-12-2007 02:02PM

Was it "Non Nationals" that complained or just "Non Christians"? I know a lot of atheists who would be outraged that their kids are doing nativity plays. I also know a lot of Hindus who think it is great and really get into the Christmas spirit. I have also heard an awful lot of anti PC bull**** spouted by the British media about "Winter Lights etc. so I have no doubt the Irish branches of thise gutter rags are doing the same thing here, lets face it, there is nothing like a good old bit of public outrage to shift a few copies of the Irish (insert tabloid name here), the paper for decent irish people.

It would also be nice for schools to learn about Diwahli/Ramadam and other traditions as well, but as our Schools are christian training camps I can't see this happening.

Nevyn · 04-12-2007 02:16PM

deman wrote: »

And what about the children of Christian families? Don't they pay too? Maybe they a being alienated? How many parents will pull their kids out of this creche because they are not allowed to celebrate the meaning of Christmas?

The meaning of christmas should be celebrated in their homes and in their churches.

deman wrote: »

FYI Ireland is still a Christian country.

Ireland is a secular republic which has had a 'mostly' christian population.

Hagar wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken the prime use of creches is child minding while parents work.
If they are a valid part of our education system why not use them to pass on our traditions?

They are not part of the education system and really if it is the case that the education system should be doing that then why don't we have proper sexual health education and contraception education in schools ?

As for our traditions not everyone is christian and it is time we faced up to that as a country, how the jewish communities here have stuck it really i don't know.

The sooner we have Sunday schools in this country for the teaching of catholicism the better.

SheroN wrote: »

If you're not a Christian, what's the difference in acting out the Nativity or snow white and the 7 dwarves? You would believe both to be works of fiction.

In schools it is presented as fact and the 'norm' to be christian and to believe such things so that children who are not thing that there is something wrong with them and their families and this is not tolerable.

Romero · 04-12-2007 02:23PM

I'm just repeating what I heard on Newstalk this morning, If it is true its a disgrace, a nativity play is nothing to be frightened of for pre-school children, but why should these non-christian parents complain? As another poster mentioned if other religons don't believe in the nativity then tell their kids its a work of fiction, but don't complain, I have my own ideas on which religion would be the most likely to complain, I'll give you a clue Teddy Bear + Mohammed. But as usual Irish just complain for a bit and then just stop, same thing happened in England! More fools the Irish who Appease those who complain!

Romero · 04-12-2007 02:29PM

Heres the piece

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2007/pc/pod-v-031207-23m19s-liveline.mp3

Creches ban Nativity play because of complaints by Non-Christian Parents

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