Should i still claim rent relief even though landlord gave back money?

Paddy1234 · 19-10-2007 11:09AM #1

Hi there,

I was living in a rented accomodation for 3 years and pretty sure my landlord wasn't paying tax.

He used to give us €400 off our last months rent - so i presume he was doing this instead of allowing us to claim rent relief.

The rent relief is worth about €1000 to me and i could do with the money now.

My question is:

Do people think it would be bad of me to claim the rent relief from my landlord now that i have moved out?

Do the revenue actively pursue landlords in this case?

Bear in mind the house i was renting was worth the bones of €1m and i was also being charged a nice hefty sum for rent.

What are your opinions? Should i leave it alone and not be greedy.

Are there any other options i could consider?

Thanks

jubi lee · 19-10-2007 11:26AM

so for the 3 years you were they he gave you 1200 euro basically and its about 1000 to you so he gave you a good deal, and now your getting greedy and want double???

mean of you i think

Femgem · 19-10-2007 12:21PM

Hi Paddy1234,

If you landlord wasn't paying tax this is pure and simple tax evasion and I believe it is your duty to claim your rent relief for the last 3 years and put your landlord's name on revenue's radar.

You are not being greedy, rent relief is your right, please claim it and help to stamp out landlords evading tax.

Femgem.

Afuera · 19-10-2007 12:41PM

Paddy1234, I think what you are suggesting is perfectly reasonable. You're entitled to claim this rent relief so IMHO you'd be crazy not to.

If the landlord has all his tax affairs in order then it's no big deal for him. If he doesn't have all his tax matters sorted out then that's his problem and you have no obligation to help him rip off the state by avoiding tax.

mkdon05 · 19-10-2007 12:48PM

In a professional capacity i would have suggested you claim your relief and put him in the eye of the revenue, but on a personal level, the guy gave you more than what he needed to, to cover the rent credit you get. That seems like a pretty decent thing to do, so i'd leave it.

In saying that, a grand is a grand is a grand!!!

bugler · 19-10-2007 12:57PM

Do it. The more people that do this, the less landlords will be inclined to chance their arm. It strikes me as amazing so many still do it, and for so long. Surely all it takes is one tenant to claim RR and the whole thing unravels?

Afuera · 19-10-2007 01:04PM

mkdon05 wrote: »

the guy gave you more than what he needed to, to cover the rent credit you get. That seems like a pretty decent thing to do, so i'd leave it.

Not that decent though when you think how much he was shafting the state for though is it? 400 EUR a year to try and buy the tenant's silence is an insult to all Irish tax payers.

dumbyearbook · 19-10-2007 01:12PM

Leave it be? you got more than you would have got (could get) anyway, you dont actually know his tax affairs are'nt in order and at any rate its none of your business.

If he ignored the rent relief you are entitled to then i'd do him in for it oterwise whats the benefit? You rented (seemingly hassle free) off a decent enough landlord why leave everyone with a bad taste?

Plus he'll want the money back he gave you, do you have proof you actually resided there ie were the bills in your name do you have a rent book?

If all landlords decalred their income from rent the effect on the rental market would be F*** all. Rents would prob rise tbh.

XJR · 19-10-2007 01:13PM

bugler wrote: »

Do it. The more people that do this, the less landlords will be inclined to chance their arm.

How do you make that out ? The landlord could not have done this if he had not been facilitated by the tenant in the first place.

I agree that the landlord should have been above board but he was not and you got "rent relief" at source so you're not out of pocket. Now it appears that you want to get it on the double and you're justification is that

The house was worth €1m

He's a landlord Seems to me you're just being greedy. As for some of the other posts I'm not surprised but am disappointed at what passes for morals around here.

Afuera · 19-10-2007 01:35PM

dumbyearbook wrote: »

you dont actually know his tax affairs are'nt in order

You should always presume that other people's tax affairs are in order. As it stands, the OPs own tax affairs are not actually in order and they are in the lucky position where they are actually owed money from Revenue.

dumbyearbook wrote: »

Plus he'll want the money back he gave you

Doesn't quite work like that I'm afraid. If the landlord gets a letter from the Revenue telling him that they're going to audit him for certain tax years he can't just ask the tenant for the money back. The landlord won't even know why he's being audited in the first place.

latenia · 19-10-2007 01:35PM

I've been a landlord, a tenant and a tax official and I say do it. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there and any little extra in the world of property you can get for yourself is worth it-especially when he's the one in the wrong here.
When you send in that rent relief form after your end is processed it will be sent to the unit that deals with his tax. They check if he's being declaring any rental income and if not they ask for full returns for the previous few years. This gives him a chance to put things in order and he'll only have to pay the amount of tax owed, not any penalties or interest.
It is inevitable that he will be caught up with when he dies or sells the house as the Revenue will want to know what the house has been used for. It's not exactly something you can hide easily like a plumber doing cash nixers.
You might as well claim your entitlement now before your time limit runs out. He can be stung for underpayment any time in the future but your overpayment only goes back 3 years.

Afuera · 19-10-2007 01:38PM

XJR wrote: »

As for some of the other posts I'm not surprised but am disappointed at what passes for morals around here.

Helping someone to commit tax evasion is hardly what you could consider taking the moral highground though is it?

D'Peoples Voice · 19-10-2007 01:39PM

Paddy1234 wrote: »

He used to give us €400 off our last months rent - so i presume he was doing this instead of allowing us to claim rent relief.

My question is:

Do people think it would be bad of me to claim the rent relief from my landlord now that i have moved out?

Do the revenue actively pursue landlords in this case?

Paddy,
just bear in mind that a prosecution can be brought against you if it can be proved that you were complicit in your landlord's tax evasion, you accepted a bribe in the form of EUR 400 to help him evade tax.
Should you need advice on being accused of helping people evade tax, I'm sure Beverley Cooper Flynn would be the best person to ask.
My advice is claim back the tax relief, stating whether your landlord was registered here or not (http://www.prtb.ie/pubregister.htm) , and deny ever receiving the EUR 400 OR say that the EUR400 was for furniture/fittings that you brought into the house and were refunded by the landlord.

bugler · 19-10-2007 01:47PM

How do you make that out ?

The LL may get a fine in the region of €3000. If this becomes more common, and LLs start to hear of friends/acquaintances being hit with this fine for evading taxes, it follows that some will go legitimate for fear of incurring large fines. Personally, I think the fines should be put up to a level considerably more punitive.

Messing with their cash is sadly all people react to nowadays.

The landlord could not have done this if he had not been facilitated by the tenant in the first place.

And? I'm not saying the OP is citizen of the year, or a 'moral' person. I'm merely stating that tax evaders deserve punishment.

latenia · 19-10-2007 01:51PM

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

Paddy,
just bear in mind that a prosecution can be brought against you if it can be proved that you were complicit in your landlord's tax evasion, you accepted a bribe in the form of EUR 400 to help him evade tax.
Should you need advice on being accused of helping people evade tax, I'm sure Beverley Cooper Flynn would be the best person to ask.
My advice is claim back the tax relief, stating whether your landlord was registered here or not (http://www.prtb.ie/pubregister.htm) , and deny ever receiving the EUR 400 OR say that the EUR400 was for furniture/fittings that you brought into the house and were refunded by the landlord.

Stretching reality to include a scarcely relevant anti-FF dig. Who exactly is going to tell anyone about the E400? The OP? No. The landlord? No. There's no legal requirement to claim rent relief. No law has been broken.

PS: Been a lot of Blueshirt activity in the Castle the last few days Mr Holier-than-thou

daveirl · 19-10-2007 02:11PM

This post has been deleted.

A Random Walk · 19-10-2007 02:16PM

If your landlord wasn't paying tax that's his problem not yours so I'd claim it if it is due. You presumably have to pay tax on your earnings and so should he.

ian_m · 19-10-2007 03:26PM

It depends on your relationship with your landlord.
I was in a very similar situation last year. I don't believe he was paying tax. I know it is not right but he charged me very little. He was a very nice man. So I decided not to claim. The politics of life.

Why didn't you say anything about it to him at the time?

MysticalSoul · 19-10-2007 04:11PM

Also, you don't state whether the place you were renting was owner occupied or not. If owner occupied, and if it falls within the tax threshold, the landlord is obliged to declare it, but is not taxed on it. If he failed to declare it though, that is another ball game altogether.

dumbyearbook · 19-10-2007 06:09PM

Afuera wrote: »

You should always presume that other people's tax affairs are in order. As it stands, the OPs own tax affairs are not actually in order and they are in the lucky position where they are actually owed money from Revenue.

Doesn't quite work like that I'm afraid. If the landlord gets a letter from the Revenue telling him that they're going to audit him for certain tax years he can't just ask the tenant for the money back. The landlord won't even know why he's being audited in the first place.

Look the op got what she was due and let her landlord and his accountant worry about his tax affairs

Id say a landlord of this nature - im going by what op has said now - nice house in a good area decent old sort gave a few bob to her for the relief, he'll want the money back id be 100% certain of it.

OP would it make you feel good to draw the revenue towards this mans affairs just so you can get more grief (and you will!) and end up back where you started - be practical about it move out leave the house as you found it and let the commisioners look for tax evaders you have nothing to gain.

The greater good may not be served but its not harmed either dont be a busy body about it.

dumbyearbook · 19-10-2007 06:20PM

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

Paddy,
just bear in mind that a prosecution can be brought against you if it can be proved that you were complicit in your landlord's tax evasion, you accepted a bribe in the form of EUR 400 to help him evade tax.
Should you need advice on being accused of helping people evade tax, I'm sure Beverley Cooper Flynn would be the best person to ask.
My advice is claim back the tax relief, stating whether your landlord was registered here or not (http://www.prtb.ie/pubregister.htm) , and deny ever receiving the EUR 400 OR say that the EUR400 was for furniture/fittings that you brought into the house and were refunded by the landlord.

Beverly was'nt convicted of anything and there were bank employees up and down the country giving all sorts of stupid advice so save the FF digs. They are off topic.

Paddy1234 · 19-10-2007 09:39PM

Thanks for all the post folks.

To answer some of the queries.

I am now actaully moved out of the house and living somewhere else - and it was not an owner occupier house. I paid him a cheque ever month so i have proof that i paid him rent.

I'm still not sure what to do. My head says take the €1000 but my heart says leave the man alone.

Would the landlord find out that it was me who claimed the relief?

I reckon the revenue give the €300 a year basically to catch bogus landlords. Will he definitely be caught?

It's a tough call. I'll let ye know what i decide to do.

eirmail · 19-10-2007 10:30PM

I say do it Paddy,it is your patriotic duty.Did you hear Cowen could be short a few bob this year?, The exchequerer could definitely do with the extra tax they could claim of this tax evader.

ian_m · 19-10-2007 10:44PM

eirmail wrote: »

I say do it Paddy,it is your patriotic duty.Did you hear Cowen could be short a few bob this year?, The exchequerer could definitely do with the extra tax they could claim of this tax evader.

If Brian Cowen is missing the money he should go look for it himself, rather than let the public be responsible.

The state has not implimented the correct proceedures and rules regarding tax payment for landlords and if it remains the case where they can get away without paying it then so be it.

Until that day, the rules will be broken. It shouldn't Joe soaps problem to be worrying about.

MrVostro · 19-10-2007 11:00PM

Your tax affairs are between you and revenue. Claim what you are owed by them.
If it bites your landlords arse then thats his problem. If he's legit then he'll be fine - if not tough.

A Dub in Glasgo · 20-10-2007 09:21AM

Your duty is to repay the landlord the money he gave you and then claim the tax relief

Afuera · 20-10-2007 01:02PM

Paddy1234 wrote: »

Would the landlord find out that it was me who claimed the relief?

No, there's no way for him to know.

Paddy1234 wrote: »

I reckon the revenue give the €300 a year basically to catch bogus landlords. Will he definitely be caught?

It's likely that he would get a letter from Revenue asking him to supply full details for the previous years. This would give him an opportunity to rectify his tax affairs without interest or penalties. If he continued to try and avoid tax after that point then he would be hit harder.

D'Peoples Voice · 20-10-2007 05:34PM

dumbyearbook wrote: »

Beverly was'nt convicted of anything and there were bank employees up and down the country giving all sorts of stupid advice so save the FF digs. They are off topic.

I never even mentioned FF,
I ,merely mentioned the name of someone who lost a libel case against two individuals who accused her of helping people evade tax.
But I take your point, she's as innocent as OJ Simpson.

Timmymaggot · 22-10-2007 11:27AM

He is evading tax and saving himself thousands in the process. What are you getting for your part of the deal? Get in on his profits and ask for more than your tax relief. Or play it by the book and take this mother down.

Jack Bauer999 · 23-10-2007 03:57PM

Timmymaggot wrote: »

He is evading tax and saving himself thousands in the process. What are you getting for your part of the deal? Get in on his profits and ask for more than your tax relief. Or play it by the book and take this mother down.

Dont do it, You said you had no problems with the landlord, he even gave you
hard cash for what you think was instead of the rent relief,
Dont get greedy because Karma will come back and bite you in the ass
at some later date when someone tries to stiff you.

Fair play to the landlord if he isnt throwing away his hard earned cash
at the joke of a goverment in tax's.

Id do the same if i could get away with it!

p.s. saw an interesting documentry last night where apparently in the states
there is no actual law in the constitution that allows the US goverment
to collect federal income tax from the people.
they did a load of interviews with the IRS and no one of them could provide
the law that says the citizens had to pay income tax.

wonder is there an actual irish law!!

bugler · 23-10-2007 05:35PM

Dont get greedy because Karma will come back and bite you in the ass

Taxes are certain. Karma is not.

Should i still claim rent relief even though landlord gave back money?

Comments