Minister for a day

jrar · 22-10-2007 4:54pm #1

OK, picture the scene - you're Minister for Transport, realistic funds (no Dublin-Holyhead tunnels please !) are available, and you've been elected on the basis that the 3 most pressing transport initiatives will be undertaken by you without recourse to geographical bias or vote-buying ! (as you can see, this is a totally notional and fantastical scenario !!!!)

So, what 3 ideas / schemes / improvements would you identify or announce to the great unwashed of this nation ?

aliveandkicking · 22-10-2007 5:05pm

1. Interconnector/Dublin Rail plan fast tracked.

2. Metro North extended southwards fron Stephen's Green towards Harold's Cross - Templeogue area.

3. Construction of a High Speed Rail line from Belfast to Cork via Navan to Dublin.

OTK · 22-10-2007 5:10pm

Save planet by buying a new ministerial eco-car such as Lexus hybrid synergy drive with drinks cabinet and full mink interior.
Organise Car Plus day (sponsored by the company that can fit the most money in my house) with a Dublin city road rally led by Jim McDaid and GV Wright
Ring Monica Leech

Alun · 22-10-2007 5:12pm

Pool the funds for all 3 projects and build a Dublin-Holyhead tunnel

(I hate sea travel, and specifically car ferries with a passion, you see!)

dermo88 · 22-10-2007 5:17pm

Legalise Drink Driving, Abolish Speed Limits, Repeal the Smoking Ban and Privatise CIE.

murphaph · 22-10-2007 5:31pm

1) Introduce a DTA with powers to set a zonal fare structure for Dublin, similar to other cities across the world.
2) Massively increase bus priority measures and get the bus to work for the city
2) Fast track Interconnector with quality stations with multiple exits

fricatus · 22-10-2007 6:37pm

murphaph wrote: »

1) Introduce a DTA with powers to set a zonal fare structure for Dublin, similar to other cities across the world.
2) Massively increase bus priority measures and get the bus to work for the city
2) Fast track Interconnector with quality stations with multiple exits

All very good ideas, especially the last one. However, these are all Dublin-only initiatives. Surely it would be a very bad minister that concentrated on Dublin's problems to the exclusion of the rest of the country?

dermo88 · 22-10-2007 6:41pm

Thats why we abolish speed limits and permit drink driving. That will solve the rest of the country's problems. They'll either be too pissed, or dead in ditches to worry about Dublin anymore. It will be great, I promise.

jrar · 22-10-2007 7:35pm

dermo88 wrote: »

Legalise Drink Driving, Abolish Speed Limits, Repeal the Smoking Ban and Privatise CIE.

Min. for Transport only :rolleyes:

You've obviously got designs on the Transport, Justice & Health portfolios !!

jrar · 22-10-2007 7:37pm

fricatus wrote: »

All very good ideas, especially the last one. However, these are all Dublin-only initiatives. Surely it would be a very bad minister that concentrated on Dublin's problems to the exclusion of the rest of the country?

That's why I stipulated none of the usual parish-pump politics apply i.e. you can choose the 3 most pressing requirements as you see them., rather than having to pander to any constituents (or Jackie Healy-Rae types)

dermo88 · 22-10-2007 7:43pm

Yes I do, I have ideas for all three portfolios, and all are good. You see, since we are facing an economic downturn, I figured, why not accelerate the process in the National interest. People want incentives for decentralisation, and rural Ireland is suffering since the smoking ban. So, why not allow drink driving. Its common sense, and it will assist so many sectors of the rural Irish economy. Its social justice. Best of all it costs nothing. I mean, anyone who cannot drive home safely after 5 Pints of Stout and 2 whiskey chasers does not deserve, much less need a drivers licence.

But seriously, back on track, and back on the rails.

Privatise CIE.
Build the Interconnector.
Zonal system of Integrated ticketting for all the cities, for bus and rail.

E92 · 22-10-2007 9:56pm

Convert all DCs built to Motorway or near Motorway standard to Motorway.

Abolish all speed limits on said Motorways(and existing ones obviously).

Abolish all VRT on cars. Replace the potential loss in Government Revenue via additional fuel tax. Apparantly you would need an additional 30 c/litre to make up the shortfall in no VRT. This would not only penalise people for driving more than absolutely necessary, but give them an extra incentive to use public transport.

Force competition in the public transport market.

Remove the Government grant for Hybrids and replace it iwith a grant for bio ethanol powered cars(which can instantly reduce CO2 emissions by 80%, compared to a 30% at best reduction in a Hybrid).
Extend the Motorway building programme so that the 5 biggest cities in the Republic are linked to each other by a Motorway. Any other road not already mentioned due to be built as a standard DC to be built as a Motorway.

A German style driving test/practical training behind the wheel. Mandatory driving lessons(as per Germany), no learners allowed out on the road unless in the company of a driving instructor(as per Germany, I think it has changed in the past 2 years but there are still no such thing as L-plates there unless you're at a driving school).

A through resurfacing of all roads done to a standard comparable to that of a similar type of road in the continent.

Provide investment for extra and bigger buses, like double deckers for Cork perhaps? AFAIK the Government is investing a lot of money on trains and things like LUAS, so no reason to change that IMO.

Abolition of anything to do with speed cameras.

BendiBus · 22-10-2007 9:57pm

DTA
Interconnector
Belfast-Dublin-Cork fast rail link

Propellerhead · 22-10-2007 11:21pm

1. Authorise the Interconnector (DART underground) between Heuston, the Green, Pearse, Docklands and the northern line.

2. Get Metro North moving and scrap Metro West. Replace it with a metro to Tallaght via Spawell and Templeogue.

3. Reuse Drogheda - Navan until the Navan - Pace railway is completed. If the promoters of the M3 lose out on toll money then tough.

Ham'nd'egger · 23-10-2007 12:54am

1) Mass expansion of Irish Railways outside of T21, specifically 3 track to Portmarnock and 2 to Mullingar, Middleton to be extended to Youghal and all Dublin-Cork suburban rail to be electrified and additional CTC, drivers and rolling stock to improve suburban capacity and frequency.
2) 1000 buses and requisit staff/services to be allocated to Dublin Bus/Bus Eireann rural services to give minimum 2 runs a day on all rural routes and 120 buses an hour peak on completed QBC in and cross city routes and feeder services.
3) A dedicated Traffic police force to ensure proper traffic rules adherence. Previous years have shown that when new bus lanes/operation freeflow are enforced, all traffic flows well in Dublin.

Note I have given nothing to Private bodies. With the exception of LUAS, private transport has and will not work in Ireland, and even LUAS was Public built. Let Veiola cough up for new LUAS lines, see how much profit they make in year 2 :rolleyes:

pinkypinky · 23-10-2007 1:32pm

Integrated ticketing for all services in each city, using zones for fares.

Re-open the western rail corridor.

Connect the 2 LUAS lines.

Upgrade roads between all cities and major towns to motorways and get rid of speed limits on them.

trellheim · 23-10-2007 2:23pm

Make it revenue-neutral by bringing true build and maintain cost of road transport vs other methods [ e.g sea, rail ] into road tax

Also triple VRT and add 40c/litre to petrol.

Now you have enough cash to do what you like; face it, Fine Gael are in next.

1:maglev to airport
2:maglev to Navan
3:maglev to Trim

bk · 23-10-2007 2:52pm

1) DTA formed, DB, Irish Rail, RPA, control of private bus services all folded into it. Introduce integrated zonal ticketing , give them planning permission powers for Dublin and complete control over Dublin streets planning, design and enforcement (more bus priority corridors, bus lane cameras etc.)

2) Metro North extended south to Tallaght (with stops in between)

3) Dart Underground (Interconnecter)

murphaph · 23-10-2007 7:53pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

private transport has and will not work in Ireland

I disagree. Dublin had the most comprehensive tram network in the world at the turn of the last century, and it private. The DUTC even had flat rate penny fares which were good for a trip across two trams to complete your journey. Political interference ended all that as it was seen as "too british" by DeVelera & Co. They despised Dublin and wrecked the great system we had under the guise of the wonderful

.

I'm not knocking the notion of public transport remaining in state control. It usually works. CIE did not work. Imagine they held a complete monopoly for 50 years and they still didn't manage integrated ticketing in that time.

Ham'nd'egger · 24-10-2007 1:06am

murphaph wrote: »

I disagree. Dublin had the most comprehensive tram network in the world at the turn of the last century, and it private. The DUTC even had flat rate penny fares which were good for a trip across two trams to complete your journey. Political interference ended all that as it was seen as "too british" by DeVelera & Co....

As usual, incorrect and irreleveant information from Murphat.

CIE was not fully nationalised as a company until 1950, this being implemented to try and save the transport system from closing altogether due to poor fiscal returns from the late 1930's onwards. It should be noted that this was commonplace across Europe, many other countries did likewise. Dublin had a good tram system back then but it was a small city to cover, most cities in the British Empire had as good so it is nothing to write home about.

Street trams were phased out from the mid 30's, with the last DUTC (Dublin United Transport Company) tram, 8, holding out till 1949 so it is inherently wrong for you to say that the tram system was successful and profitable. Most routes only lasted out due to WW2 and the lack of new Leyland Titans to replace same. Buses did the same services as trams cheaper, faster, more practically and without the losses that many tram routes were coming out with, a fact that was stopping the DUTC from bothering investing into new estates and areas without State hand-outs.

Propellerhead · 24-10-2007 3:25pm

It's interesting that the DUTC only went with an anti-tram policy when the company was taken over in the early 1930s by a board chaired by A.P. (Percy) Reynolds, a Fianna Fail supporter. The DUTC went at that point into issuing tickets and changing its address written on trams and buses into Irish.

Reynolds had come from a bus company who had aggressively competed with the trams. It is understandable that Reynolds motivation was to run the DUTC on a profitable basis, and it is also understandable that being a FFer he wanted to espouse an Irish-Ireland identity for the DUTC in comparison to its previous management.

The consequence of the bus policy from 1938 onwards was the abandonment of the Lucan line in 1940 and the Howth line in 1941. There was much retrenchment of the tramway in the period to 1947, by which time only the Terenure and branched Dartry line, and the line to Dalkey remained.

The dislike for British norms among some of the influential people of the early years of the State should be noted. Todd Andrew's autobiographies reek with hatred of the anglicised in Dublin, sneering at cricket as a popular sport in Dublin in his youth, acid-drenched pen-portraits of stockbrokers leaving Harcourt Street Station in the mornings and his infamous related comment at a public meeting in the 1960s about the Harcourt Street Line only being used by "a few aul Protestant solicitors from Carrickmines". It is debatable whether Reynolds disliked trams as a relic of past Britishness in Dublin, but it is highly likely that the profit margins on buses justified the scrapping of the tramway to him.

It is a crying shame that of all the tramways scrapped, the Lucan line, if retained, could have been of use. Directly or indirectly the other key trunk lines have been replaced with DART and Luas.

Ham'nd'egger · 24-10-2007 3:51pm

Propellerhead wrote: »

It's interesting that the DUTC only went with an anti-tram policy when the company was taken over in the early 1930s by a board chaired by A.P. (Percy) Reynolds, a Fianna Fail supporter. The DUTC went at that point into issuing tickets and changing its address written on trams and buses into Irish.

Reynolds had come from a bus company who had aggressively competed with the trams. It is understandable that Reynolds motivation was to run the DUTC on a profitable basis, and it is also understandable that being a FFer he wanted to espouse an Irish-Ireland identity for the DUTC in comparison to its previous management.

The consequence of the bus policy from 1938 onwards was the abandonment of the Lucan line in 1940 and the Howth line in 1941. There was much retrenchment of the tramway in the period to 1947, by which time only the Terenure and branched Dartry line, and the line to Dalkey remained.

The dislike for British norms among some of the influential people of the early years of the State should be noted. Todd Andrew's autobiographies reek with hatred of the anglicised in Dublin, sneering at cricket as a popular sport in Dublin in his youth, acid-drenched pen-portraits of stockbrokers leaving Harcourt Street Station in the mornings and his infamous related comment at a public meeting in the 1960s about the Harcourt Street Line only being used by "a few aul Protestant solicitors from Carrickmines". It is debatable whether Reynolds disliked trams as a relic of past Britishness in Dublin, but it is highly likely that the profit margins on buses justified the scrapping of the tramway to him.

It is a crying shame that of all the tramways scrapped, the Lucan line, if retained, could have been of use. Directly or indirectly the other key trunk lines have been replaced with DART and Luas.

I agree, man; by the time that Percy had taken the reigns at the DUTC, there was more buses running than trams, simply because buses were a better bet economic wise.

They moved more people faster and quicker, they used cheap diesel when the electric grid was strained; they didn't need rails or pylons; they were easier and cheaper to look after compared to the elderly trams they replaced and with the economy conscious 1930's, buses took less material to build. Dublin was growing but DUTC didn't see sense in the figures to lay new tramlines as it cost more to shift less bodies, a bus could get there with just a road. Buses were the way to go. The trend in the UK was to replace trams with buses. Most of the UK only phased out trams and trolleybuses in the 1950's, Dublin merely got there first and would have sooner before the onset of WW2. Leyland used to market buses "When you bury a street tram, make the place with a Titan such was the deathnell of trams.

The Irish element you refer to? All of Ireland was like that back then; let us not forget Dev's trade tariffs on anything British. That I feel was endemic of society then more than anything.

daniel3982 · 24-10-2007 7:00pm

1).

A high speed rail line running Cork - Clonmel - Kilkenny - Carlow - Dublin - Dublin Airport - Drogheda - Dundalk - Newry - Portadown - Belfast (with spurs from Kilkenny to Waterford and from Clonmel to Tipperary and Limerick)

2).

An extention to the Luas to all corners of Dublin

3).

The interconnector in Dublin and upgrading of the Dart which could increase in frequencies thanks to Belfast traffic taking the new high speed line.

murphaph · 24-10-2007 9:08pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

As usual, incorrect and irreleveant information from Murphat.

CIE was not fully nationalised as a company until 1950, this being implemented to try and save the transport system from closing altogether due to poor fiscal returns from the late 1930's onwards. It should be noted that this was commonplace across Europe, many other countries did likewise. Dublin had a good tram system back then but it was a small city to cover, most cities in the British Empire had as good so it is nothing to write home about.

Street trams were phased out from the mid 30's, with the last DUTC (Dublin United Transport Company) tram, 8, holding out till 1949 so it is inherently wrong for you to say that the tram system was successful and profitable. Most routes only lasted out due to WW2 and the lack of new Leyland Titans to replace same. Buses did the same services as trams cheaper, faster, more practically and without the losses that many tram routes were coming out with, a fact that was stopping the DUTC from bothering investing into new estates and areas without State hand-outs.

I notice you didn't disagree with my statement that CIE has monopolised public transport across the whole of the RoI for 50 odd years and didn't even manage integrated ticketing across the bus network in any city, nevermind nationwide.

Ham'nd'egger · 25-10-2007 12:13am

murphaph wrote: »

I notice you didn't disagree with my statement that CIE has monopolised public transport across the whole of the RoI for 50 odd years and didn't even manage integrated ticketing across the bus network in any city, nevermind nationwide.

The only reasons why it has monopolised carrying fee paying passengers is that it was formed by the State to unite public transport into one concern when private undertakings (GSR, IOC, DUTC) were losing cash and liable to go bust and leave the public with no service. If the railways of old were making profits, they would have stayed private For the most part any services that private companies offer are two farthing efforts that cannot be relied on at all. Say what you like about the CIE companies (in your case, it won't ever be positive

) but there is not many examples of successful private companies holding public licences and doing good jobs of it. Aircoach, Lough Swilly, Luas, Matthews, City Link and after it you are stuck for examples.

As to your comments about intergrated ticketing; blame the DTO and Dept. Transport for poor progression of same. CIE offered Bus/rail tickets for years now and they seem to work well for anybody who carrys them so it's making an effort, what about our friends at Veoila?

TheThing! · 27-10-2007 7:29pm

Your opinion is as meaningless as your existence

You made your parents real proud

AlekSmart · 28-10-2007 12:25am

Oddly enuf,that oul State Monopoly CIE issued a prefect example of TOTALLY integrated ticketing for many years up until the mid 1970`s I think....
Remember the Rambler.....?
The simplest of tickets featuring a written-in date and valid for a specific number of days etc etc....

Valid on ALL CIE services Rail,Provincial City,Provincial Express,Dublin City and perhaps even the Aran Island Ferry (?).

Hey and they even managed a revenue split (of sorts).....now the real issue is why that basic and workable system could not have been adapted for wider scale usage.....Prob cos it would`nt justify spending €40 Million on Consultancy,Feasibility and whatever you`re havin yourself studies.....

Minister for a day

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