The land of the 'free' - kind of..

humanji · 19-09-2007 09:09AM

Campus security have the same authority as cops over there IIRC

seamus · 19-09-2007 09:12AM

Stekelly wrote:

He was given plenty of warnigns to shut up, but he started ranting like a loon. A woman clearly says they have a taser in his chest, he was still ranting , while obviously knowing they would taser him, yet he didnt shut up, so they tasered him. gob****e.

So if someone doesn't comply with orders, that's fair game to use a weapon on him? If this wasn't a taser, but a baton or a rubber bullet, would he have been equally fair game to have them used on him?
How about if the Gardai decided to use these? "Alright lads, come on, move along there." "Whaddya mean? We're not doing anything!". "Alright, you were warned...." ZAP.

A taser is a "non-lethal" weapon. Despite popular belief, "non-lethal" doesn't mean, "Can't kill", it means, "not designed to kill".

estariol · 19-09-2007 10:37AM

am I missing something here, its every voters right to challenge their elected reps/candidates in a public forum, being passionate about something in a q and a is hardly a crime, face it the US is a country of poorly educated concieted war mongers....you're prefectly entitled to your opinon as long as you don't express it. Does any of the pro taser morons understand what a university is and what its purpose is?

The nation of right wing, human rights abusing, intelligent design promoting, imperialist nazis that is America

0ubliette · 19-09-2007 10:50AM

Jigsaw wrote:

Some American people have sense. That guy was one of them. Generally speaking Americans are fat, stupid, ignorant right wing twats that are only interested in where their next burger is coming from.

Generally speaking, how many americans have you met? Ever lived there? Or do you just regurgitate all your ideas from Michael Moore books/movies and stereotypes?
Bloody hypocrites.

And to all the hippies here talking about free speech, i guess you missed the report that the student had earlier been making a commotion and had barged his way up to the mic and then started acting like a nut? What, 4, 5 months after the virginia tech massacre? You really think cops are going to stand idly by and just wait and see what happens? Bloody tree huggers

Terry · 19-09-2007 11:43AM

They had him near the door.
All they had to do was take him outside.

MOH · 19-09-2007 11:45AM

0ubliette wrote:

And to all the hippies here talking about free speech, i guess you missed the report that the student had earlier been making a commotion and had barged his way up to the mic and then started acting like a nut? What, 4, 5 months after the virginia tech massacre? You really think cops are going to stand idly by and just wait and see what happens?

Don't see what the virginia tech massacre has to do with it, but they seemed pretty happy "to stand idly by and just wait and see what happens" then, and this guy was hardly going to talk anyone to death.

nobodythere · 19-09-2007 11:47AM

The people with the big red button seem to be going a little out of their ****ing minds.

Symptom of a bigger problem really.

yomchi · 19-09-2007 11:49AM

And to all the hippies here talking about free speech, i guess you missed the report that the student had earlier been making a commotion and had barged his way up to the mic and then started acting like a nut

'making a commotion' - translated for Europeans;

To hold a public rep to account, to ask undesirable questions, to air America's dirty laundry in public.

'Barged his way up to the mic'

He demanded his voice be heard, after all it is America!

'He acted like a nut'

He demanded to know why he was being arrested, man handled, removed, and assaulted.

Goddam deserved to be electromucuted :rolleyes:

God bless America

Dyr · 19-09-2007 12:15PM

non-compliance with the nice policeman= taser time

I like the way he called the black copper "bro" like "im on your side bro fight the powa!!"

cornbb · 19-09-2007 12:35PM

- He was opinionated and a bit fired up by his rant, that doesn't in any way constitute a breach of the peace.
- There were six officers there to take him down, yet they only felt it necessary to taser him after he had been pinned down and his hands restrained. A bit f*cked up? Administration of justice on the streets?

Yes, the kid was a bit stupid to keep ranting and resisting. But in fairness, he clearly posed a threat to no-one. This brutality happens all the time, search YouTube for "taser" for dozens more examples.

A taser is a dangerous weapon, the fact that it is unlikely to kill the victim just makes those who use it less likely to be brought to account.

Setun · 19-09-2007 12:41PM

0ubliette wrote:

And to all the hippies here talking about free speech, i guess you missed the report that the student had earlier been making a commotion and had barged his way up to the mic and then started acting like a nut? What, 4, 5 months after the virginia tech massacre? You really think cops are going to stand idly by and just wait and see what happens? Bloody tree huggers

Re the text in bold: Wtf? What has hippies got to do with it?

The police in the clip undeniably used excessive force. Why did they feel that it was necessary to taser him? He had been cuffed and restrained when they tasered him.
The allmighty authority of the U.S yet again displays itself stupendously in the international press.

SingingCherry · 19-09-2007 12:44PM

Jigsaw wrote:

Some American people have sense. That guy was one of them. Generally speaking Americans are fat, stupid, ignorant right wing twats that are only interested in where their next burger is coming from.
...I've got an anger problem at the best of times but being in America would send me over the edge

You're right, you do have problems. No doubt about that.

humanji wrote:

Campus security have the same authority as cops over there IIRC

That's actually not true at all. They can take your to the police station, or call the police or defend themselves if need be, but they are in no way like actual cops or have the same authority. I went to an American college; I would have been in deep ****e if every time I was caught drinking underage by the rent-a-cops they could actually do something about it other than reporting to my dorm advisor.

If you are resisting arrest from an ACTUAL cop they can use force. These people were not cops and therefore have no authority to use such excessive force. The kid was an annoying twat, but you can't do that.

nyarlothothep · 19-09-2007 12:46PM

Police brutality and authoritarianism is a big issue in America, its not simply limited to it though, wasn't there a similar incident 5 years ago in Ireland with the Reclaim the Streets rally? (I know...Ireland is not as bad as America for clamping down on freedom of expression but just thought it might be relevant here)

Terry · 19-09-2007 12:58PM

nyarlothothep wrote:

Police brutality and authoritarianism is a big issue in America, its not simply limited to it though, wasn't there a similar incident 5 years ago in Ireland with the Reclaim the Streets rally? (I know...Ireland is not as bad as America for clamping down on freedom of expression but just thought it might be relevant here)

I'd have to disagree with you on the freedom of expression thing in Ireland.
I would love to continue here, but unfortunately the law prohibits me from saying what I want to say.

SingingCherry, attack the post, not the poster. Otherwise you run the risk of finding out how I deal with dissenters.

seamus · 19-09-2007 01:09PM

Terry wrote:

SingingCherry, attack the post, not the poster. Otherwise you run the risk of finding out how I deal with dissenters.

Then you'll wish you'd been tazered

humanji · 19-09-2007 02:07PM

SingingCherry wrote:

That's actually not true at all. They can take your to the police station, or call the police or defend themselves if need be, but they are in no way like actual cops or have the same authority. I went to an American college; I would have been in deep ****e if every time I was caught drinking underage by the rent-a-cops they could actually do something about it other than reporting to my dorm advisor.

If you are resisting arrest from an ACTUAL cop they can use force. These people were not cops and therefore have no authority to use such excessive force. The kid was an annoying twat, but you can't do that.

Well, I'm not sure how valid it is, but I read some stuff about it on line:

Powers and Authority of Officers. – Campus police officers, while in the performance of their duties of employment, have the same powers as municipal and county police officers to make arrests for both felonies and misdemeanors and to charge for infractions on any of the following:

The full link is here. I'm no law talkin' guy, so I don't know what half of that means or even if it's valid. It's just what someone pointed out to me. I don't knwo when you went to an American college, but remember that things would have changed with the school/college killings and even 9/11 paranoia. Who know's what laws have been passed?

seamus · 19-09-2007 02:22PM

It really depends on the status of private security and citizen's arrests in the U.S.

It's not the same in this country. Private security (be they campus or company security) don't have any more powers than a private citizen. They do however have the right to act on behalf of the owners of the property. This means that they can refuse you entry, ask you to leave or "ban" you from the property. I think they also retain a certain ability to forcibly remove you, but there are definite limits in how much "force" they can use.

In terms of arrests, they are limited the same as a normal citizen - they can place you under citizen's arrest, and restrain you if the crime carries a minimum penalty of five years or more. For stuff like breach of the peace, they can perform a citizen's arrest, but they can't restrain you or otherwise prevent you from leaving.

5starpool · 19-09-2007 03:30PM

indough accused The_Rigger of being too sensitive. I think the main issue here is that Americans are way to sensitive and act way too harshly, way before they should.

Of the people that are saying good enough for him, if during the election campaign here recently, someone that was protesting to Bertie or similiar about a hospital closing or something, and was trying to crowd round him and shouting at him, if they were held down and tasered, would these same people be glad that action was taken as well?

Over the last few years, American freedoms are being taken away it seems, under the veil of 'preventing terrorism'.

metaoblivia · 19-09-2007 03:43PM

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/tasered-student-a-known-prankster/2007/09/19/1189881593152.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2489183.ece

This case is getting huge amounts of media attention in the US and is causing fierce debate and outrage. It can be easy to generalize an entire nationality, but many Americans are just as upset by this as posters on this board.
From my perspective (an American perspective and a Florida perspective - I graduated from the university in question), the kid was pulling a stunt for his website and it got out of hand. Students were allowed to speak for one minute and were allowed to ask one question. He went over time and refused to stop speaking and stop asking questions, even after they cut his microphone. He set out to create a scene and he got one. Campus security shouldn't have tasered him - they fell for his set up. Now two of them are on leave, and the student will become a martyr and get the publicity he so desires. He's a youtube star, and there's a good chance he'll be running the talk show circuit in the coming week.
A lot of people in the US are criticizing John Kerry for not stepping in and asking security to back off. I'm surprised that no one here has taken that route yet, because it's a big deal over here. Some people think he didn't do enough, others thought he handled himself well. I thought Kerry did the best he could, given how quickly the situation escalated.

wyk · 19-09-2007 04:26PM

humanji wrote:

Campus security have the same authority as cops over there IIRC

No, they do not. They are a private security force, and in some cities do not even require special training. Even so, if you believe the local city law enforcement officers, or state, or county, are violating your rights or threatening your life, you can resist as well - but at your own peril.

Those security guards, their employer, as well as the university, now have a lawsuit on their hands, with plenty of video to back up the out of control security guards. Using a taser is assault unless they can show the student was presenting an immediate threat to their safety or the safety of others. Which, looking at the video, was not the case. He was asking questions and making statements, no matter how odd, in a non threatening manner in a forum which was presented as a question and answer forum, before the guards started roughing him.

Wez

humanji · 19-09-2007 04:48PM

Well I posted a link where it says they are. Does anyone have a definite answer to this?

monosharp · 19-09-2007 05:05PM

The cops are practically untouchable in yankland especially if the victim is below a certain wage category or are not of a certain racial persuasion.

On the main point though, yeah land of the free is complete horse poo. If it ever was the "land of the free" it certainly ain't anymore. Although is it really much different to the rest of the world ?

Anto McC · 19-09-2007 05:28PM

monosharp wrote:

The cops are practically untouchable in yankland especially if the victim is below a certain wage category or are not of a certain racial persuasion.

On the main point though, yeah land of the free is complete horse poo. If it ever was the "land of the free" it certainly ain't anymore. Although is it really much different to the rest of the world ?

Looking at it again and i think Terry was right, they're beside the door they should've just taken him outside.

Then they should have proceeded to kick the sh*te out of him where no one can see.

yomchi · 19-09-2007 05:32PM

metaoblivia wrote:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/tasered-student-a-known-prankster/2007/09/19/1189881593152.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2489183.ece

This case is getting huge amounts of media attention in the US and is causing fierce debate and outrage. It can be easy to generalize an entire nationality, but many Americans are just as upset by this as posters on this board.
From my perspective (an American perspective and a Florida perspective - I graduated from the university in question), the kid was pulling a stunt for his website and it got out of hand. Students were allowed to speak for one minute and were allowed to ask one question. He went over time and refused to stop speaking and stop asking questions, even after they cut his microphone. He set out to create a scene and he got one. Campus security shouldn't have tasered him - they fell for his set up. Now two of them are on leave, and the student will become a martyr and get the publicity he so desires. He's a youtube star, and there's a good chance he'll be running the talk show circuit in the coming week.
A lot of people in the US are criticizing John Kerry for not stepping in and asking security to back off. I'm surprised that no one here has taken that route yet, because it's a big deal over here. Some people think he didn't do enough, others thought he handled himself well. I thought Kerry did the best he could, given how quickly the situation escalated.

Just a point of info, as this is twice or three times its been said - but to become a martyr as such, you have to be killed or die 'heroically'

metaoblivia · 19-09-2007 05:39PM

Jon wrote:

Just a point of info, as this is twice or three times its been said - but to become a martyr as such, you have to be killed or die 'heroically'

Exactly my point. Some people will view what this kid did as heroic, when in my view, while his rights were violated, he's far from being a martyr.

metaoblivia · 19-09-2007 05:40PM

Sorry double post

Hagar · 19-09-2007 05:42PM

That's the freedom they want the world to share with the world, by force if needs be.
Thanks, but work it up your swiss.:mad:

Ekancone · 19-09-2007 06:06PM

Was it the police or campus security? Theres seems to be a lack of clarity on this matter in this debate.

humanji · 19-09-2007 07:20PM

Anto McC wrote:

Looking at it again and i think Terry was right, they're beside the door they should've just taken him outside.

Then they should have proceeded to kick the sh*te out of him where no one can see.

lol

eoin5 · 19-09-2007 08:04PM

You would think that Kerry would be able to manage people like this properly at this stage. He should been more assertive with the guy. As soon as he started to waffle too much Kerry should have cut across him and got him to ask his question instead of being so washy.

The land of the 'free' - kind of..

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