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Bench Press max question

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  • #32
    Hanley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 21,981 ✭✭✭✭Hanley


    I'd definately agree with Colm on this one.

    I was actually just thinking today about how in the last year I've learned so much about myself, how to face challenges, how to prioritise, time management skills, coping in the face of adversity and finding new and innovative ways to deal with problems, while "under the bar".

    There's nothing that will do more for my confidence than watching my lifts go up. I've stood toe to toe with the strongest people in Ireland and surpassed them, faced some of the strongest people in the world and am not too far away from joining them now. How the hell is "life" going to phase me after that?? Presentations, reports, study... all that is easy compared to what I put myself thru under the bar.

    I've found no greater discipline builder than training to lift heavy weights. I'd love to see someone try and explain how that has not added to the quality of my life...


  • #33
    Colm_OReilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Colm_OReilly


    Hanley,

    Thanks for that. I didn't see the distinction ali.c was making - makes sense now. If I wasn't shattered I'd think of a response but in the words of yoda - meditate on this I shall.

    Any gymnasts out there who might have standards of body weight exercises between male and female gymnasts?

    Colm


  • #34
    ali.c
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭ali.c


    Colm_OReilly wrote:
    I didn't see the distinction ali.c was making - makes sense now.

    My bad for not being articulate, though i am interested to see your response on this one.

    I do think that increased strength and fitness improves a persons quality of life, equally i am sure that people involved in all type of sports/activities get improve their quaility of life.

    I am not sure i equate the number of pull-ups, dips and other strenght excercises a person can do to health per say is all.


  • #35
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    Hanley wrote:
    I'd definately agree with Colm on this one.

    I was actually just thinking today about how in the last year I've learned so much about myself, how to face challenges, how to prioritise, time management skills, coping in the face of adversity and finding new and innovative ways to deal with problems, while "under the bar".

    There's nothing that will do more for my confidence than watching my lifts go up. I've stood toe to toe with the strongest people in Ireland and surpassed them, faced some of the strongest people in the world and am not too far away from joining them now. How the hell is "life" going to phase me after that?? Presentations, reports, study... all that is easy compared to what I put myself thru under the bar.

    I've found no greater discipline builder than training to lift heavy weights. I'd love to see someone try and explain how that has not added to the quality of my life...
    It has undoubtedly added to your quality of life. Challenge is an important part of happiness, and I don't question for a second that weight training has added this and other positive things to your life.
    But it's a personal thing. Like rubadub said, a mathematician might find similar satisfaction by solving hard maths problems. This person might have no interest in being physically strong, and be naturally rather weak for one reason or another. So rather than boost their confidence, weight training might damage it, since they could find themselves unable to improve at a satisfactory rate. It might just seem like pointless hassle to them.

    They could be perfectly healthy, like ali.c said. In fact, studies have shown that all animals should have a longer lifespan if they live on a reduced calorie intake, while still getting enough nuitrition. Building strength almost always involves eating more.

    As Colm O'Reilly said, humans are particularly obsessed with measurements. This is exactly what makes me take exception to the assertion that a certain level of strength is necessary to be ok. People seem to be increasingly viewing themselves as objects or products. People can easily become too concerned about conforming to a physical norm or ideal. The most of obvious and probably most severe example is anorexia. But it effects lots of people in a bad way. And men can often have reverse anorexia, where they are never satisfied with their musculature in an unhealthy way; and never feel ok about themselves as a result.

    Weight training can greatly improve someone's quality of life, but it is certainly not necessary for a reassonable quality of life.
    "Don't measure my wheat with your bushel"


  • #36
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    pwd wrote:

    They could be perfectly healthy, like ali.c said. In fact, studies have shown that all animals should have a longer lifespan if they live on a reduced calorie intake, while still getting enough nuitrition. Building strength almost always involves eating more.

    all animals or some small animals
    links pleaes


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  • #37
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    The issue divides researchers. Calorie restriction, or cutting energy intake below energy expenditure, can slow ageing, reduce mortality, and extend maximum lifespan in rats, mice, fish, flies, worms and yeast. But to date, the only evidence that it works in humans is anecdotal. A 1978 study of inhabitants of Okinawa1 showed that energy intake among adults was roughly 80% of the Japanese average. Some researchers have held this up as evidence that restricting diet reduces age-related diseases and extends longevity. But gerontologist Sataro Goto of Toho University in Chiba, Japan, points out that Japanese people have a daily energy intake nearly 20% less than the average of developed countries, and that the mean life-expectancy of Japanese women is 85 years — not significantly more than that of women in all developed countries.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7095/full/441807a.html


  • #38
    rubadub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    pwd wrote:
    Like rubadub said, a mathematician might find similar satisfaction by solving hard maths problems. This person might have no interest in being physically strong,
    Yes, I imagine the guy who set the standards is a strong athlete himself and believes it has enhanced his life greatly, he is probably very strong and deals with others who are above average, therefore his own estimate of what is "average" or is the "minimum requirment" is skewed compared to other peoples ideas of the same. Same goes for any "expert" or "overachiever".

    This can even be seen on threads here, people post pics of guys that I think are fairly big, at least above average, many much bigger than I hope/want to get- yet some posters just brand them "skinny".

    Bill Gates probably cant lift much and probably thinks he has a decent quality of life- being stronger might make his life easier though. I think people just get a bit offended if they feel branded or categorized in a somewhat negative way.


  • #39
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    I'm not offended and I'm not categorised in a negative way. I just disagree with the standards, and the idea that you need a level of strength to have a reasonable quality of life.


  • #40
    BossArky
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,704 Mod ✭✭✭✭BossArky


    I like to think the aim of my training is to gain strength and speed for functional reasons as opposed to asthetics.

    Imagine yourself in the following scenarios:

    1) You somehow survived the impact of a plane ditching at sea. You need to clamber through bits of wreckage, push dead bodies off yourself and squeeze through the tiny hole in the fuselage. Off course then you have to swim the few km to shore (luckily the pilot ditched near to land ;) )

    2) You're walking down the street and someone snatches your girlfriends handbag (or your man bag :eek: ). You managed to chase them down and get your stuff back. *Clobbering them is an optional extra*

    3) You are coming back from holidays and don't want to put your back up lugging 20kgs of Taiwan's finest export material back home.

    The above are slightly exaggerated scenario's but should highlight the fact that a bit of strength and training can improve your quality of life / prospects of survival, etc.

    On the other hand opium addicts in Afghanistan probably live happily even though they are thin as rakes at 30kg and blissfully unaware than another world exists outside their daze.


  • #41
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    i think that for the type of [people that post in a fitness forum fitness is important
    a level of strength to weight would be part of that

    but obviously those with no intrest in themselves from a fitness poerspective wouldnt care


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  • #42
    Colm_OReilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Colm_OReilly


    ali.c,
    My bad for not being articulate, though i am interested to see your response on this one.

    I do think that increased strength and fitness improves a persons quality of life, equally i am sure that people involved in all type of sports/activities get improve their quaility of life.

    I am not sure i equate the number of pull-ups, dips and other strenght excercises a person can do to health per say is all.

    We equate fitness with health. From the Crossfit Journal (free issue)
    We have observed that
    nearly every measurable value of health can be placed on a continuum that ranges from sickness to wellness to fitness...For example, a blood pressure of 160/95 is pathological, 120/70 is normal or healthy, and 105/55 is consistent with an athlete’s blood pressure; a body fat of 40% is pathological, 20% is normal or healthy, and 10% is fit. We observe a similar ordering for bone density, triglycerides, muscle mass, flexibility, HDL or “good cholesterol”, resting heart rate, and dozens of other common measures of health.

    Strength is a very important of component. From the CFJ Sept 2007:
    Strength is the ability to produce force, and it is possibly the most
    important component in athletics...Power depends on it, as does balance, coordination, speed, quickness, and endurance. training.

    Hopefully that gives a better foundation of where I'm coming from.

    For my own part, let's look at how increased strength can help children and the elderly.

    A child needs to develop strength just to be able to stand, then to walk, then to run. He needs strength to hold himself upright, then hold basic articles, such as spoons, mugs, plates, toys. The greater strength he develops, the quicker he can start to learn and interact with the world.

    The longer an elderly person has the strength to stand/walk around unassisted, the longer they can get up from a seat, carry around things, the more they can get out of each day.

    Essentially the stronger you are the less strenuous every task you do is on your body - the result is more energy/the ability to do more. Which, personally I think would improve the quality of your life.

    If I've failed to address anyone's points please let me know.

    Thanks,
    Colm


  • #43
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Colm_OReilly wrote:
    We equate fitness with health. From the Crossfit Journal ...
    what about mental health? What about a balanced lifestyle? What about the ability to deal with everyday challenges that no amount of bicep strength or hip flexibility or explosive power will solve?

    Health cannot be measured by numbers and callipers and physical feats of strength. And impressive strength does not equal an improved quality of life. Hanley explained it well:
    Hanley wrote:
    I was actually just thinking today about how in the last year I've learned so much about myself, how to face challenges, how to prioritise, time management skills, coping in the face of adversity and finding new and innovative ways to deal with problems, while "under the bar".

    Training can help to teach you about dealing with other aspects of life. But it doesn't solve those other problems, it just gives you a new perspective in how to deal with them. It's not the definitive way to cope with all those difficulties though. And as other people have said, hitting a double body weight DL might be the be-all-and-end-all for someone whose goals are physically oriented, but to others their lives and the quality they live them in will be improved through academia or through relationships or family or friends or any number of other factors.

    Personally I am one of those people who rely on the physical aspects of my life to fulfil me and I get a lot of happiness and contentment from lifting heavy stuff, but I would never for a second try to impose those views on someone who didn't train. You can't assume that health = happiness = fitness = better quality of life.

    Colm, this is not an attack at you, more that I've been aware of and exposed to Crossfit for a while now, and frankly I would be inclined to say that the 'teachings' encouraged under the Crossfit trademark are walking thinly along the obsessive borderline.

    The Crossfit workouts are excellent, the results that reguilar CF style training can produce are impressive... but once you look past that and start to read the paraphenalia and propoganda of CF, it's quite scary virtual brainwashing. Nearly every post you write Colm references CF in some way, is CF really the answer to everyone's problems? Do you ever question the CF mentality or disagree with it's policies?

    Like I said, I'm not attacking you, it's each to their own. I'm just often amazed at how the advocates of CF are practically aggressive in their encouragement of their lifestyle - "if you want to be happy you need to live by CF, eat a Paleo Diet and meet these strength requirements!!" I'm just not comfortable with all those political undercurrents and military style regimes.


  • #44
    Colm_OReilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Colm_OReilly


    g'em,
    Thanks for your reply.
    Nearly every post you write Colm references CF in some way, is CF really the answer to everyone's problems?

    No, Crossfit is not the answer to everyon'e problems. However, this is a fitness forum, and in my experience and opinion their is no better resource out there for improved fitness/health than that prescribed by Crossfit.

    On a personal note, obviously I'm deeply passionate about this - because it has improved my physical fitness no end. I was aware of CF for ages but didn't follow it because it looked too tough, or I didn't believe I could follow the workouts, or that it required more dedication than I thought. I don't want people to waste as much time as I did, so I try to get the word out there to people.
    Do you ever question the CF mentality or disagree with it's policies?
    ...I'm just not comfortable with all those political undercurrents and military style regimes.

    In my experience those who are affiliates are fanatical about CF, and because it's had such a great impact on their life, they want to tell everyone about it. I've seen the same with people who are passionate about MMA, or other activities. My friend loved windsurfing - personally I can't stand being cold and wet, but he loved it! He'd talk for hours to me about it, and while I didn't understand squat about it, I enjoyed his passion.

    I admire passion and dedication in any individual, regardless of whether I agree with the method or process they're undertaking. CF, for me, had this process and was in alignment with what I wanted to do, so I applied for affiliation.

    As regards their military/religious views - I disagree. I don't get involved with their rest day discussions. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by military regimes, but I believe we're on the same page about some of the Glassman's political views.

    I have noted (and I believe it's similar to the Halo Effect) that when you're something important to say about one topic (Glassman in the case of fitness) people will eventually seek out your opinion, and hold it in the same high regard, on other topics. Even myself, people who I coach (particularly kids) will take cues from me in terms of attitudes and behaviours concerning things outside my remit.

    Regarding health:

    As you've asked, what about mental health? This is addressed briefly in the CF journal that I quoted above (actually it's the line I ommitted). The basic thrust is that mental health is harder to measure, but they believe exercise can have a positive effect on someone's mood.
    Health cannot be measured by numbers and callipers and physical feats of strength.

    I've quoted standardised measures of health and how being fitter relates to them. What definition of health would you like us to use?

    For a balanced lifestyle: Yes I agree with you that one should have a balanced lifestyle. The initial debate was strength's role in fitness, and by extension, health. From there, the argument seems to have reached reductio ad absurdum, which can be dismissed because it is absurd.

    Eating fruit is healhty, right? So the more fruit i eat the healthier I'll be? Up to a point. Eventually, you'll either get no additional benefit and finally reduced benefit. You'll hit a point of diminishing returns.

    Strength and fitness are the same. To a point, the stronger you are will help improve your ability to manage the physical challenges you face in your life. Eventually, a point is reached in which the time is better spent investing in flexibility, balance, etc. Taking this argument outside the physical and into life balance - yes, the ability to deal with stress, forge great relationships, earn a secure/lucrative salary, etc are all important. Indeed if you're working your bench 1RM while your baby starves or your college finals are on you've ballsed up!

    However, the fitness gained from working out up to 6 hours a week won't, imo, reach that point of diminishing returns whereby it's negatively impacting the rest of your development.
    You can't assume that health = happiness = fitness = better quality of life

    I didn't. I equated health with fitness, and gave examples based on the measures of health commonly used. I equated improved health with improved quality of life, your physical health being a component, not the total.

    As regards happiness, personally I believe that comes from (or, at the very least is largely determined by) having a purpose. I'm a big fan of Steve Pavlina, and his articles on lightworkers/darkworkers. I've read a lot of personal development material, and for me Steve's work (while at times incredibly heavy) has appealed to me the most.

    I think it's great you derive pleasure from working out as an end in itself. For me, it's the coaching of people and the results they get that gives me great pleasure. Doing what you love, and being dedicated, is what really contributes to life satisfaction, imo.

    Thanks for asking the questions, and hopefully my response makes sense :rolleyes:

    Colm


  • #45
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Colm_OReilly wrote:
    g'em,
    Thanks for asking the questions, and hopefully my response makes sense :rolleyes:
    lol, they did and thank you for taking the time to answer them!! I'm completely pushed for time right now so I can't elaborate on your post, but I think we're fundamentally on the same page about a lot of things. My post was really more of a provocative set of questions with a curiosity to see where you stood on things more than an argument against you, in fact I wholeheartedly endorse much of what you said.

    You're right, I do take issue with some of Glassman's views, and I guess that's why when I see someone as passionate as you are about CF, it troubles me a little. But as you explained, your passion is about CF as a training style, not as a political outlet, and with the drive and ambition you obviously display in your posts I have no doubt that CF.ie will take off with great speed and you'll be on a par with any of the more established CF groups in no time ;)

    Hopefully I'll get back to this when I have more than two minutes to spare...


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