Air conditioning on the DART?

El Stuntman · 13-09-2007 9:05am #1

I was on my usual DART this morning which, as usual, was packed.

It was also, as usual, airless and bakingly hot inside, despite it being a relatively cool day outside.

Coming into Connolly the young girl beside me fainted - we got her off the train (now I really know the meaning of the term 'dead weight')and her friends looked after her, she seemed to be coming around fine. This was the second time this week that I've witnessed a fainting incident on the DART and I have no doubt that both were due to the horrible conditions in the carriages.

My questions for those of you who probably know better are:

- do DARTS have air-con? If yes, why the hell is it never switched on? I'm sure it's lovely in the driver's cabin but in a crowded carriage, the DART can be a pretty dreadful place to be. I'm a healthy guy but I've had to get off before my stop before simply to get fresh air before I pass out - I can't imagine what it must be like for people who are elderly/sick/pregnant etc

- does IE have a legal health and safety obligation towards its passengers? if yes, why are they flagrantly ignoring it in this regard?

- how would one go about highlighting this to IE as an issue? Is there a passenger's forum of some sort?

thanks for replies in advance

Bluetonic · 13-09-2007 9:06am

El Stuntman wrote:

Coming into Connolly the young girl beside me fainted - we got her off the train (now I really know the meaning of the term 'dead weight')and her friends looked after her, she seemed to be coming around fine. This was the second time this week that I've witnessed a fainting incident on the DART and I have no doubt that both were due to the horrible conditions in the carriages.

I wonder when was the last time these two people had eaten?

El Stuntman · 13-09-2007 9:15am

Bluetonic wrote:

I wonder when was the last time these two people had eaten?

thanks for your help, very useful

are you a DART user?

mikemac · 13-09-2007 9:27am

Bluetonic, has a point
There was an article in the Indo showing that many people who fainted were women on drastic diets. Many skip breakfast so it's not suprising they feel weak.
I think this was based on a study of the subway in New York

This is leaving aside people who are hungover, tired and dehydrated. And you're bound to get a few of them on a Dart on a Friday morning

El Stuntman · 13-09-2007 9:36am

micmclo wrote:

Bluetonic, has a point
There was an article in the Indo showing that many people who fainted were women on drastic diets. Many skip breakfast so it's not suprising they feel weak.
I think this was based on a study of the subway in New York

This is leaving aside people who are hungover, tired and dehydrated. And you're bound to get a few of them on a Dart on a Friday morning

leaving aside the fact that today is Thursday

, I believe this is an issue - have any other DART travellers experienced similar or should I just go away and continue to suffer in silence? or just contribute to the carjams?

mikemac · 13-09-2007 9:40am

I fully realise what day of the week it is. :rolleyes:
Just brought up the point as you dismissed Bluetonic without even realizing that leaving aside medical conditions, then the majority of young people who faint are either hungover or weak from dieting.

Trampas · 13-09-2007 9:47am

Who is going to stop the people getting on the dart?

If you are late for work and someone says the dart is full you cant get on.

What are you going to do?

El Stuntman · 13-09-2007 9:49am

micmclo wrote:

I fully realise what day of the week it is. :rolleyes:
Just brought up the point as you dismissed Bluetonic without even realizing that leaving aside medical conditions, then the majority of young people who faint are either hungover or weak from dieting.

the person who fainted today was about 16

the one on Monday was 50+ - and it was in the evening rush

I did mention that I've felt close to fainting on the DART myself (both in the mornings and the evening) on occasions and I always horse down a good breakfast and tend not to drink during the week

now, have you any answers to the questions I put in my OP?

mal1 · 13-09-2007 9:51am

micmclo wrote:

I fully realise what day of the week it is. :rolleyes:
Just brought up the point as you dismissed Bluetonic without even realizing that leaving aside medical conditions, then the majority of young people who faint are either hungover or weak from dieting.

Haha, blaming the fainting on trains on drink and dieting, come on, hardly? I travel into work on the Dart along with my sister and she has fainted on the train on a number of occasions and she doesn't drink during the week and she has a breakfast every morning. Making out that people who faint are hardened drinkers or dieting bimbos is a little harsh.

Kimbot · 13-09-2007 9:52am

To the OP, same thing applies to the Luas, there is air con in all the newer models. They don't use it alot of the time but even if they did it wouldn't make too much of a difference, the luas is weird when you stand right under it you get a cool blast but if the sun is shining you are getting blasts of heat and cold!!

monkeyfudge · 13-09-2007 9:55am

The original DARTs at least had windows you could open, didn't they?

If anything I'd like to see air con to remove the rife smell that is on the DARTs these days.

I used to have to get the DART every day about 6 years ago... but I recently have had to use it a few times for the first time in a long and I've been taken aback by how filthy and stink ridden it is these days.

MarkoP11 · 13-09-2007 10:16am

Only those coaches with sealed windows have air conditioning, that is standard practice in the industry, air conditioning is pointless if you open the windows. Luas doesn't have air conditioning its got a semi chilled forced air system

The only cause of complaint is if the air conditioning where fitted was not switched on (very rare now). Then you have quite legitimate cause for complaint on the grounds "that overcrowding led to unsafe conditions" (i.e. someone collapsed) such a complaint should be made to the first instance to the driver to confirm the air conditioning is on, even if it is insist it be switched off and then on again, then the Customer Service Office Pearse station and then the Railway Safety Commission. There are no legal standards in place anyway and this legal situation is common across the EU.

Bluetonic and micmclo share a 100% valid and legitimate point, the vast majority of people collapsing do so in the morning rush and are predominantly female. So did they skip breakfast? and by that I mean a proper sit down and calmly eaten breakfast not a stuff it in in 30 seconds on the run gig. Of the four incidents I have directly witnessed the train was nowhere near full (as in leave people behind), still plently of space around. Of course people collapse for unrelated medical issues quite independent of where they are.

Moral of the story is

1. Don't travel on a empty stomach, have a proper breakfast
2. Avoid travelling if feeling unwell, hangovers are the worst
3. If the train is full, don't try to squash on, wait for the next one, remember you are boarding of your own free will
4. If you feel unwell or unstable leave the train at the next stop
5. If you are wearing a coat or jacket remove it before you board
6. If you have a medical condition which may be triggered or made worse by travelling in hot or crowded conditions don't do it
7. If you believe the air conditioning to be switched off (where fitted) ask the driver to turn it on

Thats all common sense and the safety people will tell you the same. Bear in mind when someone collapses it triggers a delay in the system delaying several thousand others and you get a vicious circle. So bear your fellow passengers comfort and health in mind.

Conditions in Dublin are drastically better than in London, just try the underground on a hot summers day.

ixoy · 13-09-2007 10:20am

I've never felt faint on the DART before but I can see how others might - it's packed far too tightly. Additionally, when our overcrowded DART stops at Connolly, it then fills up even further (or attempts to) with all the people from one of the suburban line trains who got just dropped at Connolly without being taken any further - ridiculous.
So to not have air conditioning on in these trains is pretty much inexcusable, unless Irish Rail are really pinching pennies. They should always be on during rush hour (particularly the morning) to ensure that people have some bare minimum of comfort as they're crushed up against the armpits of their fellow passengers..

odyssey06 · 13-09-2007 10:28am

This is one of the reasons why I stopped getting the DART. The conditions on them are inhuman - you couldn't ship cattle in the conditions on an average rush hour DART.

I had a girl, probably a college student, faint on me on the DART. That was one of the last times I got it. Luckily I could switch to the buses as I live near Killester and it has a decent bus service.

One factor you have overlooked is that if you are shorter, on a packed DART you could be surrounded by taller people and get less 'air'. Women, generalising here, tend to be shorter than men, so all things being equal, you'd expect women to faint more than men on a packed carriage.

John R · 13-09-2007 10:50am

The only Darts with air-conditioning fitted are the most recent batch of 4-car 8520 units.

They have flat roofs with the large aircon units on top and sealed windows:

http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324394.html

All the other units have opening windows and no air-conditioning, this includes the recently refurbished 1983 units.

Original 1983 8100 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324387.html

Refurbished 1984 8100 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324381.html

8200 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p34354723.html

8500/8510 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324382.html

If you are on one of the air-conditioned units and it is uncomfortably hot then report it, if you are on one of the others make sure the windows are all open.

Edited to provide correct link to 8200 Class.

Bluetonic · 13-09-2007 10:52am

El Stuntman wrote:

thanks for your help, very useful

No need to be a smart arse.

El Stuntman · 13-09-2007 11:10am

John R wrote:

The only Darts with air-conditioning fitted are the most recent batch of 4-car 8520 units.

They have flat roofs with the large aircon units on top and sealed windows:

http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324394.html

All the other units have opening windows and no air-conditioning, this includes the recently refurbished 1983 units.

Original 1983 8100 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324387.html

Refurbished 1984 8100 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324381.html

8200 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p34354724.html

8500/8510 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324382.html

If you are on one of the air-conditioned units and it is uncomfortably hot then report it, if you are on one of the others make sure the windows are all open.

hi John, good info - obviously I don't know what type of carriage it was but it had windows (all of which were open).
I think the problem is that when the DART is rush-hour packed, even having all the windows open seems to have negligible effects.

So it appears there's nothing that can be done?

dazberry · 13-09-2007 11:41am

I got the DART out to Ballsbridge from Tara St last year during morning rush hour. It was a train that had originated in Howth because I recognised someone on it.

When the doors opened, the blast of heat that come out was incredible, sort of like when you get off an aeroplane in a hot country, but in reverse. I don't know how people manage it in the mornings.

D.

ixoy · 13-09-2007 5:11pm

dazberry wrote:

I don't know how people manage it in the mornings.

Been taking it daily for a decade now. You get used to it and, if you're lucky enough to get a seat, it's okay. Otherwise I manage to wedge myself into a corner or up against the wall and get by. I've found metros/undergrounds else far warmer but, by contrast, far more effecient.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4 · 14-09-2007 11:24am

John R wrote:

Original 1983 8100 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324387.html

Refurbished 1984 8100 units:
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p43324381.html

those darts are that old!!! they are mank inside and a lot of them have holes in the bottoms of the doors

ian_m · 14-09-2007 11:43am

I can imagine the response that would come from Iarnrod Eireann.

I have seen people fainting on the DART before. The older carriages have big heaters under the seats. Bring a frozen lasange into work in your bag and its cooked by the time you get into town.

Peoples diets could have something to add to it all. More and more people skip breakfast and wait until they get into work before eating. Which is unhealthy.

I think the newer carriages have better air conditioning and Ill bet people don't faint half as much on those.

spacetweek · 14-09-2007 11:44am

jonny24ie wrote:

To the OP, same thing applies to the Luas, there is air con in all the newer models. They don't use it alot of the time but even if they did it wouldn't make too much of a difference,

I've never been on a luas that had the A/C off. You can hear it quite plainly the whole time, it's quite loud. In fact it's very noticeable, as the feel in a Luas is much more comfortable than the experience on boarding a bus (I've less experience of the DART) - on a wet day the bus is sweaty and the windows misty, but you never get that on a Luas.

I think that the problem with the DART is not really the A/C - it's the extreme overcrowding. No A/C system, no matter how strongly run, can do much in that situation.

El Stuntman · 14-09-2007 3:31pm

spacetweek wrote:

I think that the problem with the DART is not really the A/C - it's the extreme overcrowding. No A/C system, no matter how strongly run, can do much in that situation.

I wonder what happens in Tokyo then? lol, would love to see some of the fat, gormless IE platform jockeys trying to do this at Connolly on a Monday morning

15-09-2007 9:50pm

Zain Numerous Cloak wrote:

those darts are that old!!! they are mank inside and a lot of them have holes in the bottoms of the doors

Yes these are the original DART units. If you think 1983 is bad then check out the Mark 2 coaches from 1972 or the 141 class locomotives from 1962 - still in service. But if they're well maintained, which they seem to be, they can go on pretty much forever (well except for the Mk2s since they're rustbuckets now

). The 1963 Cravens were still in service until last year and it was really the failing generator vans that gave them so much bad publicity, not the coaches themselves which were still structurally solid. Had an entertaining trip on a Craven set in November last year where the generator failed several times in the trip leaving us in pitch darkness.

But back on topic, as has been said, in the DART fleet only the 8520s have air conditioning, the easy way to spot it without looking at the numbers is the lack of opening windows.

Infini · 17-09-2007 11:15pm

ixoy wrote:

I've never felt faint on the DART before but I can see how others might - it's packed far too tightly. Additionally, when our overcrowded DART stops at Connolly, it then fills up even further (or attempts to) with all the people from one of the suburban line trains who got just dropped at Connolly without being taken any further - ridiculous.

Problem is they simply cant send the commuter trains further south cos most of the time there isnt any capacity to do so expecially during the rush our. Besides thisll probably change in a few years time anyway since theres plans to link the maynooth line to bray essentially removing commmuter trains from that direction and most howth and malahide/balbriggan darts (theres plans to extend it that far) will not even be touching connoly but rather heading tru the interconnector onto the hazelhatch line.

Red Alert · 18-09-2007 8:17am

The 141/161 locomotives are perfectly ok - they are being cut up by IE who are afraid that a private operator might be allowed in to run freight or passenger services. Lack of Irish gauged locomotives makes this difficult.

The Mk2's are manky and to be honest I can't wait to see them go. However, the state of them is mainly down to the poor maintenance and lack of mid-life rebuilds they got with Irish Rail. NIR's Gatwick Set which is essentially a BREL Mk2 have had the benefit of one.

On topic, just to point out that Metro stock such as the tube in london and paris's metro tends to have trains that are at least as old as the original DARTs. However the build quality is generally superb so they can last for up to 50 years.

The LUAS doesn't actually have cooled-air air conditioning, as far as I can see it's just a fan in a box on the roof. Pretty much the same as opening the window. But I'm open to correction on that one.

Tipsy Mac · 18-09-2007 9:54am

The drivers regularly turn on the heat in the mornings thinking this is what people want, if they actually looked at that DART they would notice that every single window (where there is one) has been opened by commuters and they have no desire whatsover to be roasted alive. They should also notice that people don't arrive at the train station by sealed air capsule they are prepared for life in the outside world when they get off the train and are dressed accordingly so as there's no cloak rooms on the DART all are still wearing coats and so turning on the heat makes it rather uncomfortable unless people strip down to a set of Speedos and are looking for a cheap sauna for their journey.

What I have been noticing recently is a reduction in the amount of DART carriages arriving at peak times, sometimes a normal 8 carriage has been reduced to 4, when this happens the conditions inside get very unbearable especially on the gas chamber style DARTs with no windows. The lack of DARTs is caused by a usually rubbish and dodgy contract signed with Siemens to refit the original DARTs where the deal has fallen through and the commuter is left with only a tiny percentage of DARTs refitted and the remainder lying somewhere in Germany gathering dust until a decision is made, I'm guessing that will be within the next 5 to 10 years. The whole refitting process in very questionable at best its like getting a 20 year old car completely rebuilt by the makers, smart money would have been spent on a new fleet which meets passenger and safety needs of 2007 and not 1984.

Interesting story here about the Siemens deal http://www.platform11.org/media/press_release.php?year=2006&no=pr_14.html

Victor · 18-09-2007 6:16pm

Red Alert wrote:

The LUAS doesn't actually have cooled-air air conditioning, as far as I can see it's just a fan in a box on the roof. Pretty much the same as opening the window. But I'm open to correction on that one.

Luas has heating and ventilation only, no cooling or de/humidification.

pclancy · 18-09-2007 9:19pm

Can I ask does the same thing happen on the commuter fleet? I get the coolmine-pearse trains every day and there defo seems to be air con coming from the roof at certain times but not at others. There are windows on the trains though so can there be a/c if there's windows as well? Im guessing not after the above posts. I switched to the bus before the summer as i always got a seat but now have to go back to the calcutta express as the school traffic means the bus cant get me into work on time any more

18-09-2007 9:51pm

Tipsy Mac wrote:

The lack of DARTs is caused by a usually rubbish and dodgy contract signed with Siemens to refit the original DARTs where the deal has fallen through and the commuter is left with only a tiny percentage of DARTs refitted and the remainder lying somewhere in Germany gathering dust until a decision is made, I'm guessing that will be within the next 5 to 10 years. The whole refitting process in very questionable at best its like getting a 20 year old car completely rebuilt by the makers, smart money would have been spent on a new fleet which meets passenger and safety needs of 2007 and not 1984.

Interesting story here about the Siemens deal http://www.platform11.org/media/press_release.php?year=2006&no=pr_14.html

Some of the 8100s have returned from their refurbishment, seems the ball is finally rolling. But since others are still leaving it'll be a while before things get back to normal.

Plus the fact that there's no 8200 DARTs in service right now is contributing to the shortage.

John R · 19-09-2007 12:36am

Tipsy Mac wrote:

The drivers regularly turn on the heat in the mornings thinking this is what people want, if they actually looked at that DART they would notice that every single window (where there is one) has been opened by commuters and they have no desire whatsover to be roasted alive. They should also notice that people don't arrive at the train station by sealed air capsule they are prepared for life in the outside world when they get off the train and are dressed accordingly so as there's no cloak rooms on the DART all are still wearing coats and so turning on the heat makes it rather uncomfortable unless people strip down to a set of Speedos and are looking for a cheap sauna for their journey.

Here's a radical idea, if the train is too hot and the heat is on then ask the driver to turn it off. The heating may be on because at 6am when the train was put into service it was needed, I am sure if you got on a cold train early in the morning with no heat on you would be quick to complain about that too.

Tipsy Mac wrote:

What I have been noticing recently is a reduction in the amount of DART carriages arriving at peak times, sometimes a normal 8 carriage has been reduced to 4, when this happens the conditions inside get very unbearable especially on the gas chamber style DARTs with no windows. The lack of DARTs is caused by a usually rubbish and dodgy contract signed with Siemens to refit the original DARTs where the deal has fallen through and the commuter is left with only a tiny percentage of DARTs refitted and the remainder lying somewhere in Germany gathering dust until a decision is made, I'm guessing that will be within the next 5 to 10 years.

There have been big problems with the re-fitting contract but your assertation that most of the units are out of service because of it is untrue. They are being sent over in batches so there is only a small number of sets out of the country at any one time and the units that have not yet been overhauled are not sitting anywhere gathering dust, they are still in service until the previous lot are returned from Siemens.

Tipsy Mac wrote:

The whole refitting process in very questionable at best its like getting a 20 year old car completely rebuilt by the makers, smart money would have been spent on a new fleet which meets passenger and safety needs of 2007 and not 1984.

That is rubbish, if you knew ANYTHING about the realities of railway operation you would realise your analogy does not hold water. Unlike cars railway vehicles can reasonably expected to have a useful service life of 30-40 years and indeed the costings for them are calculated over these sort of periods. As part of that lifespan a thorough mid-life overhaul is not unusual. compared to the cost of buying 40 now units to replace the 8100s the cost of the overhaul makes complete financial sense. It would be comparable to scrapping a 7 year old high-end car because the trim had gotten frayed and it needed a new gearbox.

The real scandal in all this is that the engineering expertise at Inchicore has been decimated over the last 20 years to the extent that this sort of work needs to be shipped overseas in the first place.

Air conditioning on the DART?

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