No Speaky de Engrish ?

Rb · 11-09-2007 10:21PM

Depends on the circumstance

Irish_Nomad wrote:

I think state-assisted language classes would be a good idea. I've lived in several countries and private language classes tend to be expensive. Denmark is the only place I know where free language classes are available to foreign residents.

So, explain exactly why, in your opinion, our hard earned taxes should go on educating people in a language that when coming to this country, they should know, when we've a sh1t health system, a transport system that needs upgrading, finishing etc, an education system where parents have to camp outside schools in order to get their application in, and where their kids may or may not get into the school, etc. Why should our money go on something they should have when deciding to come to this country? We have refugees here, who'll without doubt want to avail of these classes should they be put in place, refugees who apparently think Ireland is the "closest safe country" to seek refuge in, despite it being one of the further "safe countrys" from their own home, why should we pay for these chancers to learn a language that they should have coming to this country?

Irish_Nomad wrote:

A large number of immigrants here are working in low paying jobs and probably sending money home to their families so paying for language classes would be out of the question for many. You say you want them to integrate but you don't want to help them to do it. That doesn't seem like a very logical position.

The minimum wage is not low in comparison to the countries they come from, they chose to come to one of the most expensive cities in Europe, if they don't like it then they can GTFO. It's not our problem, they decided to come here, they can deal with the consequences, be it dealing with a language barrier due to them being so stupid as to not having learnt some of the language before coming here, or the high prices involved in staying here.

The Polish, being Europeans have every right to be here, but its THEIR CHOICE and with that choice, it is up to THEM to deal with the consequences. If they come here with f*ck all English, it's not OUR problem they can't get a job because employers want people with a minimum of basic English, it is THEIR problem and THEY can deal with it, not the Irish Government bending over to facilitate the f*cking morons.

Irish_Nomad wrote:

And just to comment on some of the other points you made :

1. There's a very good chance those "ignorant f*cks" already speak more languages than you do. Just because English isn't one of them is no reason to insult them.

Who cares if they speak more languages than I do?Let them f*ck off to a country where they can converse in the language if they can't speak ours. It's pure ignorance to come here without a basic grasp of the English language, particularly if they have other languages which they could put to use in other countries.

Irish_Nomad wrote:

2. You complain that they speak Polish amongst themselves. Come on. Do you imagine that a group of Irish lads working abroad would chat to each other in German or Polish or whatever ? Should we be banned from speaking English in public when we go away ?

Where I was working, it was strictly English whilst working for security reasons, yet they felt they were above the rules and spoke Polish to eachother, despite knowing that it was strictly against company policy. The people in question had perfect English, and spoke Polish amongst themselves when suited, going from Polish to English to Polish to English etc. It was extremely rude, and certainly not a trait that had them as liked characters in the workplace. They only spoke Polish when they were saying something they didn't want us hearing.
Pure ignorance, completely rude, complained about the country yet we welcomed them with open arms.

Irish_Nomad wrote:

3. They keep to themselves. After reading your post I don't blame them one little bit.

Actually, generally people were quite friendly amongst eachother in this instance, however the foreign staff sat amongst themselves on breaks/lunches, spoke Polish and when it came to nights out, they came alright but still didn't bother socialising with the other, non-Polish staff.

I'm not racist, it's not the race of the people that annoys me, it's their attitude. They can be African, Polish, French, whatever, if they act like f*cking arseholes then they deserve to be labelled so (the individual, not the race)

DonJose · 11-09-2007 10:28PM

Depends on the circumstance

Another point to make is that immigrants can apply for Irish Citizenship after living for 3 years. That bothers me more.

Karl Hungus · 11-09-2007 11:22PM

Depends on the circumstance

stcatherine wrote:

The problem is not with the immigrants who come here willing to work, pay taxes and learn the language so they can integrate into our society, it's with those that think it's their god given right to get every handout the state will give them

I disagree completely.

I think the problem is with the people in the "Immigrant Council of Ireland" who are proposing this kind of idiocy in the first place.

Irish_Nomad · 11-09-2007 11:24PM

So you have a problem with foreigners if they don't speak the language and you have a problem with them if they do. No, doesn't sound racist at all.

And forgive me for laughing at this one - "we welcomed them with open arms". This from someone who in 2 posts has called them "ignorant f*cks", "f*cking morons", and "f*cking arseholes". Talk about self-delusion.

There are several reasons why we should help foreign residents learn English. I thought facilitating integration was important but I mentioned that before and you have ignored it. Another reason is that it will reduce other costs. For example, imagine a foreigner is involved in a serious assault (either as assailant or as victim). His interaction with the Gardai and courts will be much more time-consuming and expensive for the state if that person cannot communicate in English especially with the need to find and pay for a qualified translator. The same applies to a lesser degree in other areas such as health, education, and taxation.

By the way I'd be fascinated to hear how you know "They only spoke Polish when they were saying something they didn't want us hearing". Did you have a spy in their camp or did you tape them and get a tame Pole to translate for you later ? Or could it just be paranoia ?

Karl Hungus · 11-09-2007 11:50PM

Depends on the circumstance

Irish_Nomad wrote:

And forgive me for laughing at this one - "we welcomed them with open arms". This from someone who in 2 posts has called them "ignorant f*cks", "f*cking morons", and "f*cking arseholes". Talk about self-delusion.

Anyone who comes into a country without knowing the primary language is an ignorant moron. Possibly with F words for effect.

11-09-2007 11:59PM

A lot of people come here with enough English to get them by, assuming that with additional language classes and immersion they can become fluent. Not everyone is capable of perfecting their language skills in isolation from others speaking that language. If these classes aren't available, people won’t be won’t be able to integrate as well as they could have. The market hasn’t provided the socially efficient outcome, thus there is a role for government.

Of course there is a difference between use and abuse but I don't see the problem with people making the most of their entitlements. Does anyone here make a moral stand and purposely pay more tax than necessary? If you lived abroad would you deny yourself any benefits that were offered to you by whatever state you were living in? The blame, if there is any, should lay with those who design the entitlement system.

The argument that people contribute nothing to a country because they send remittances home is complete bollocks.

12-09-2007 12:16AM

Karl Hungus wrote:

Anyone who comes into a country without knowing the primary language is an ignorant moron. Possibly with F words for effect.

I went on a college exchange and worked abroad without speaking any of the native languages when I left, by your defintion I guess I am an ignorant moron.

I figured that by attending some language classes and living in that country I could pick up enough to get me by. That turned out to be the case. Apparently that would not be the case in Ireland as there is a lack of English classes.

My job and exchange were mostly through English. That said, there are certain jobs (e.g. construction, cleaning), where only the most basic language skills are needed. As folks' english advances they can move up the career ladder and integrate more fully into Irish society. This is a long term process.

Karl Hungus · 12-09-2007 12:17AM

Depends on the circumstance

Deleted User wrote:

I went on a college exchange and worked abroad without speaking any of the native languages when I left, by your defintion I guess I am an ignorant moron.

Well, now that you mention it.

challengemaster · 12-09-2007 12:21AM

Depends on the circumstance

randylonghorn wrote:

Expect an exasperated Rozabeez (and her dog) to be on your trail within minutes ...!

only on his/her trail? fecking lot of them were on my damn nuts!

Talliesin · 12-09-2007 12:26AM

Slow Motion wrote:

So the immigrant council of Ireland want to introduce english classes for immigrants coming here ! Should we spend our (and possibly their) taxes on this ? Or should they have read the smallprint before coming here and learned how to communicate in the major language of this country ! If you were going to work abroad in a non-english speaking country would you expect that state to teach you the language ?

In English we don't put spaces before exclamation and question marks. Maybe you should emigrate to another English-speaking country and their tax-payers will help you out.

_Kaiser_ · 12-09-2007 12:29AM

Depends on the circumstance

It's so refreshing to see an (AH) thread on this topic that ISN'T a PC love fest.

These people are coming here by choice. It's therefore their responsibility to suitably equip themselves to survive and (positively) contribute to our society, one of the fundamentals being the ability to speak the language used in the country.

Think about it.. how many times have you gone into a burger joint (for example) and been met with a blank stare when you place your order? Or spent 10 minutes trying to spell your name for the guy in that Indian call centre you got put through to (interestingly, unlike many of the Irish, the UK seems to have had enough of this - hence ads promoting "UK only call centres" on TV etc).

As far as rb's points go, it's not just the Polish that stick to themselves and speak their own language in Irish company. I worked for a large IT multinational and they ALL (Spanish, Italian, French, German etc) do it, and you're right, it's pure ignorance. It doesn't encourage integration, and ultimately leads to the "Us vs Them" attitude so prominent in the ghetto's of other countries which in turn presents a whole other set of problems!

This isn't racism. If someone wants to come to this country and make a better life for themselves and contribute to our society and economy then by all means, but it's not our responsibility to pay for their language classes, social welfare, accomodation etc.

I'm sure Ireland is seen as a "soft touch" and we are, because we (as a nation) are so terrified of being accused of being racist that we're being exploited at the expense of our own indigenous population. The argument that we "owe" it to these people because the Irish went all over the world in the past doesn't wash either. The Irish went to work, built the UK and US, and as Karl pointed out, were often treated like sh*t in their new home countries. Citizenship wasn't just given away either - another thing we should learn from.

As I've said many times before, charity begins at home and we certainly have more than enough problems in this country without taking on everyone else's as well.

12-09-2007 12:32AM

Karl Hungus wrote:

Well, now that you mention it.

I see what you did there.

Clever

RoyalMarine · 12-09-2007 01:44AM

Depends on the circumstance

Kaiser2000 wrote:

As I've said many times before, charity begins at home and we certainly have more than enough problems in this country without taking on everyone else's as well.

well said. i went to thailand for a year. did i get free thai lessons? NO.
if we went to poland would we get free polish lessons? NO.

Irish_Nomad · 12-09-2007 02:07AM

Karl Hungus wrote:

Anyone who comes into a country without knowing the primary language is an ignorant moron. Possibly with F words for effect.

I've done it 4 times. I didn't have an option to spend months learning the language beforehand. We Irish are just very fortunate that when we go abroad we can generally communicate through English. I find it hilarious that many people here are so demanding about language skills when as a nation our grasp of foreign languages lags well behind other European countries.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

As far as rb's points go, it's not just the Polish that stick to themselves and speak their own language in Irish company. I worked for a large IT multinational and they ALL (Spanish, Italian, French, German etc) do it, and you're right, it's pure ignorance.

That is not ignorance. It is a perfectly normal phenomenon for people in a foreign country. When you want to relax it is much easier to do so if you can speak your own language, with people that share common cultural reference points, support the same/rival football teams, understand your jokes without them having to be explained, etc. Every nationality that I have come across behaves this way. While you will sometimes meet people that immerse themselves in the local culture they are the exceptions.

Your own observations should have made you realise this. As you mention they all behave that way. The fact that you conclude they are all ignorant just suggests that you are predisposed to think ill of them.

thefinalstage · 12-09-2007 02:35AM

Irish_Nomad wrote:

I've done it 4 times. I didn't have an option to spend months learning the language beforehand. We Irish are just very fortunate that when we go abroad we can generally communicate through English. I find it hilarious that many people here are so demanding about language skills when as a nation our grasp of foreign languages lags well behind other European countries.

Our grasp of foreign languages lags behind other european countries because we are on the outskirts and only had the English xenophobes to impose their languge upon us for hundreds of years.

Other countries such as Germany are bordered by many countries with many different languages and cultures. Since countries trade with others surrounding them it was needed to learn the local language. Thus most other european countries historically needed other languages and we did not.

_Kaiser_ · 12-09-2007 02:40AM

Depends on the circumstance

Irish_Nomad wrote:

That is not ignorance. It is a perfectly normal phenomenon for people in a foreign country. When you want to relax it is much easier to do so if you can speak your own language, with people that share common cultural reference points, support the same/rival football teams, understand your jokes without them having to be explained, etc. Every nationality that I have come across behaves this way. While you will sometimes meet people that immerse themselves in the local culture they are the exceptions.

Your own observations should have made you realise this. As you mention they all behave that way. The fact that you conclude they are all ignorant just suggests that you are predisposed to think ill of them.

Please re-read what I wrote. I said they do this while in Irish company.
Of course I don't mind if they talk away in their native language (good way to keep up your practise of it after all), but doing so while in a group of other people who don't speak the same language is just bad manners, pure and simple.

I also said that it doesn't encourage integration, which in (especially) a work/social environment is not a good thing surely.

Jigsaw · 12-09-2007 02:53AM

My Chinese takeaway has arrived, so bye bye.

the_syco · 12-09-2007 02:57AM

Depends on the circumstance

Kaiser2000 wrote:

As far as rb's points go, it's not just the Polish that stick to themselves and speak their own language in Irish company. I worked for a large IT multinational and they ALL (Spanish, Italian, French, German etc) do it, and you're right, it's pure ignorance.

It's not ignorance. They stick to their own like the Irish stick to their own when abroad. The difference: we just don't seem to give a flying f**k, and will go out drinking with hte locals for the craic. Some of the foreigners here will stick to their own, as they're met with complete racist ignorance. I said some, as the rest will go out drinking with us.

I've come across Polish, French, Spanich, and Chinese who, if given half a chance, will come out drinking, and have the craic.

[rant]As for being rude talking in their own language, what ****ing ****** bull****. Christ all ****ing mighty. The amount of times people talk to their mates about "yer one across the dance dloor giving me the eye"... oh, wait, you talk your own language, as it's spur of the moment, don't you? And yet if a foreigner does it, it's bad? Cop the **** on lad. Have you ever heard one paddy speak the local tongue in Ibiza?[/rant]

Oh, and for the record, do any of ye know how you say "der Kunde kann nicht scheinen, das Gedächtnis in den internen Schlitz einzusetzen" in English? You do? Well, then, can you explain "Schlitz einzusetzen" in simpler German, so that the German dude will then know how to say it in English to the customer? Yes, I know, it involves the two lads speaking German, one telling the other how to say something, but if you know a word in German, such as "sichtgraphikadapterkabel", and you want to insert it into the "graphikkarte", but don't know how to say it in English, would you ask the English speaking person, or someone (like another German person), how to say it in English?

The above is an example. I see many of the Polish ask other Polish questions about the working of a computer, and they need to ask a polish person, as an English speaking person won't have a clue WTF they're on about.

thefinalstage · 12-09-2007 02:57AM

Jigsaw wrote:

My Chinese takeaway has arrived, so bye bye.

Not true. Its too late, none are open. Spreading lies on the internet! For shame!

randylonghorn · 12-09-2007 03:00AM

Cad is anim an Atari Jaguar

thelastangryman wrote:

Our grasp of foreign languages lags behind other european countries because we are on the outskirts and only had the English xenophobes to impose their languge upon us for hundreds of years.

Fair point ... up to a point. However, this state has been independent for the best part of a century. The majority of us are still dreadful at languages ... and still just as inclined as the English and Americans to assume everyone SHOULD speak English when we go abroad.

thelastangryman wrote:

Other countries such as Germany are bordered by many countries with many different languages and cultures. Since countries trade with others surrounding them it was needed to learn the local language. Thus most other european countries historically needed other languages and we did not.

Again, fair point ... up to a point! However, we are members of the EU, we trade internationally ... and to a great extent we still expect everyone to deal with us in English. Luckily, we usually get our way.

Pythia · 12-09-2007 07:42AM

Depends on the circumstance

Irish_Nomad wrote:

I find it hilarious that many people here are so demanding about language skills when as a nation our grasp of foreign languages lags well behind other European countries.

But it doesn't matter if we can't speak other languages as we aren't emigrating en masse to another EU country that doesn't speak English.

enda1 · 12-09-2007 07:58AM

Depends on the circumstance

Pythia wrote:

But it doesn't matter if we can't speak other languages as we aren't emigrating en masse to another EU country that doesn't speak English.

I am! Just after moving to Brussels and not a word of French or Dutch to my name. Its grand though, the jobs in English. Back on topic, no they shouldn't be thought the language for free, that's just silly.

Heinrich · 12-09-2007 08:10AM

enda1 wrote:

I am! Just after moving to Brussels and not a word of French or Dutch to my name. Its grand though, the jobs in English. Back on topic, no they shouldn't be thought the language for free, that's just silly.

If ye have the odd word of Flemish you should get by!:D

Mais de toute facon, tout le monde parle anglais a Bruxelles.:p
Keine probleme

KTRIC · 12-09-2007 08:25AM

About 2 years ago when I was in Bayreuth (Bavaria) I seen Herr Stoiber address the public and in his speach he said that the Bavarian government do not want forgieners that can't speak German and if they don't have a good standard they shouldn't bother coming.

I thought it was a bit harsh until I seen the flood of non-english speakers in Dublin recently. I was finding it hard to hold a simple conversation with staff in a newsagents.

tameagdul · 12-09-2007 09:52AM

Out of curiosity, what countries?

Korea and Japan. I don't think it was like government policy, more local government initiatives. It was such a nice simple gesture on their part, and left many people with a better impression of the place.

phasers · 12-09-2007 09:56AM

they should have to take an English test when they get here
if it's below standard, send em back

if we should be promoting anything it should be the use of Irish

12-09-2007 10:12AM

Depends on the circumstance

Well in the UK they have finally copped on (hopefully) by insisting that immigrants are able to speak English before they arrive.

Where I used to live (Northampton) the social services had leaflets in about 60 languages. There appeared to be no attempt to insist on English being used by claiments, just work out what language they speak and find an interpreter.

People should at least be able to speak the local language whereever you are, tá mé ag foghiaim Gaeilge, but I'm still crap at it for the moment.:(

arybvtcw0eolkf · 12-09-2007 10:15AM

Depends on the circumstance

Exit wrote:

Why do you assume that every immigrant is a chancer?

Because their taking a chance on coming here, simple.

Exit · 12-09-2007 10:28AM

Mairt wrote:

Because their taking a chance on coming here, simple.

:rolleyes: Ridiculous answer.

Slow Motion · 12-09-2007 11:27AM

Talliesin wrote:

In English we don't put spaces before exclamation and question marks. Maybe you should emigrate to another English-speaking country and their tax-payers will help you out.

Wow with all the debate going on you decide to attack my grammer and writing skills ? This is the way I was thought to type, by a professional ! If it offends your sensibilities tough ! Your post contributes very little to the topic at hand, but thanks for the pedantry.

No Speaky de Engrish ?

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