Dublin denies racist problem as blacks struggle to find school places

darkman2 · 10-09-2007 11:14AM #1

Dublin denies racist problem as blacks struggle to find school places

SHAWN POGATCHNIK

CHILDREN of African immigrants will attend an all-black school because they have failed to receive places in Ireland's overloaded education system.

Mary Hanafin, the education minister, yesterday said the problems in the Dublin suburb of Balbriggan reflected bad planning amid rapid population growth, not racist attitudes at existing schools.
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But local teachers said they were shocked to see that, when they called a meeting over the weekend for parents struggling to find a school place for their children, almost everyone who turned up was black.

"That overwhelmed me. I just find it extremely concerning," said Gerard Kelly, the principal of a school with a mixture of black and white students in the nearby town of Swords.

Ms Hanafin said: "Just because the child is black, doesn't mean they're not Irish. So it might be a skin-colour issue, but it's not necessarily a race issue."

She said the schools were doing their best and that the government hoped to have a new, non-denominational school up and running in Balbriggan by the end of the month.

The parents at Saturday's meeting said they had tried to get their children into local schools, but were told that all places had to be reserved by February. Almost all of the children are Irish-born and, therefore, Irish citizens.

Some questioned why white families who had moved this year into the town had overcome the registration deadlines to get their children into schools.

Some also complained that the school system discriminated against them on religious grounds. About 98 per cent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits it to discriminate on whether or not a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptised into the faith. Some of the African applicants were Muslim, Protestant or of no religious creed.

Over 25,000 Africans have settled in Ireland since the mid-1990s. Most arrived as asylum seekers and many took advantage of a law - unique in Europe - granting citizenship to parents of any Irish-born child. The law was tightened in 2004.

Thoughts? Have we to sort out the schools or is it time to sort out the immigration system? I think we have problems coming down the line tbh which even the most politically correct cannot ignore.

DarkJager · 10-09-2007 11:17AM

Its time to sort out the immigration system. People can't just come into this country and expect services like education to just bow to them or their kids. This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

Karoma · 10-09-2007 11:21AM

Ms Hanafin said: "Just because the child is black, doesn't mean they're not Irish. So it might be a skin-colour issue, but it's not necessarily a race issue."

See?! Not racist.

"Time to sort out the immigration system" or time to sort out the overcrowded, Catholic-controlled education system?

dodgyme · 10-09-2007 11:24AM

need to sort out immigration system NOW

Slow Motion · 10-09-2007 11:26AM

DarkJager wrote:

Its time to sort out the immigration system. People can't just come into this country and expect services like education to just bow to them or their kids. This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

I agree, it's just another example of the Govt. deciding to do something and not think through the ramifications ! Ah sure it'll be alright ! No ! It won't unless you do something, coloured kids can't get places ! Change that to kids can't get places ! Same as people can't get hospital beds ! Criminals can't get jail cells ! Judges can't get arrested for kiddie porn ! Victims can't get justice ! Single fathers can't get access to their kids ! Colour is irrellevant (sp?) ! Idiots in charge is relevant !

Dyr · 10-09-2007 11:32AM

Even if these poor kids get to hop skip ahead of the indigenous kids in the massive waiting lists for school places just because they is black, they'll STILL be expected to learn irish!! Why its racisms i tells ya!!

Cry me a f****ng river, and when yiz do then build a boat and paddle up it back to whatever other EU country yis snuck in from, yee shower of goldbricking chancers.

nikolaitr · 10-09-2007 11:36AM

This is nothing new. If anyone can remember, there was a news item last year I believe about parents lining up over night outside schools to get place(I believe the school was in swords).

What is happening now is that the media is trying to take on a new slant on this issue, that somehow its racism.

Its not, fact is children are losing out, both white and black, and to blame this on racism is sensationalist.

The media shouldn't be asking Mary Hanafin does she believe the Dept. of Ed. employs racist practices, but instead ask her, why she has allowed the Average students per class ratio to increase to almost 30 per class in certain schools?

seamus · 10-09-2007 11:41AM

DarkJager wrote:

This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

It's not necessarily the immigrants. A lot of the time you'll have over-zealous ultra-lefties doing it too. "Residents against Racism" often attach themselves to issues which aren't specifically anything to do with race and often end up with egg on their face when it turns out they were way off.
I also like this quote from Hanafin:

Ms Hanafin said: "Just because the child is black, doesn't mean they're not Irish. So it might be a skin-colour issue, but it's not necessarily a race issue."

Very clever. Don't allow people to bring skin colour in as an indicator of ethnicity/race. That only serves to divide the community along skin colour lines. I'm not an FF supporter, but I've always found Hanafin to be a clever politician.

This was discussed in a thread before. It's an infrastructural issue above anything else. With Ireland becoming less and less Catholic, this problem was going to raise its head sooner or later. It's the explosion in non-Catholic children/immigrants that has accelerated the process. It's not a racism issue.

mise_me_fein · 10-09-2007 11:45AM

I'm glad the government are taking tough measure on deporting people. We've enough foreign nationals here as it is. If you're in now, fine but it has to stop.

Regarding this issue, I'd say the black families just didn't realize how tough it is to get in and how early you have to reserve a place in some schools here.

Sam Vimes · 10-09-2007 12:05PM

seamus wrote:

It's not necessarily the immigrants. A lot of the time you'll have over-zealous ultra-lefties doing it too. "Residents against Racism" often attach themselves to issues which aren't specifically anything to do with race and often end up with egg on their face when it turns out they were way off.

yeah they piss me off. I remember one of them on the radio talking about the roma on the roundabout. She kept saying they were forced to live there and that in romania they'd been denied an education even though romania wouldn't have been allowed in the eu if they did that

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-09-2007 12:19PM

Well we already had a 'Miss Afro-Galway' beauty pagent last year, next will be RTE Black-entertainment-TV, black schools and Green-Orange-Red-Black traffic lights aren't too far away

As a nation we've bent over and took it right up the arse off the crazy left for long enough now.

Wook · 10-09-2007 01:01PM

mise_me_fein wrote:

I'm glad the government are taking tough measure on deporting people. We've enough foreign nationals here as it is. If you're in now, fine but it has to stop.

Regarding this issue, I'd say the black families just didn't realize how tough it is to get in and how early you have to reserve a place in some schools here.

god, you serious...?
This country would be on their arses if it wasn't for all those foreign people serving you or taking care of you in healthcare/services.
cheap labor everywhere ! but this is not a post about racism i guess ?

Terry · 10-09-2007 01:05PM

Mairt wrote:

Well we already had a 'Miss Afro-Galway' beauty pagent last year, next will be RTE Black-entertainment-TV, black schools and Green-Orange-Red-Black traffic lights aren't too far away

As a nation we've bent over and took it right up the arse off the crazy left for long enough now.

Those 'black-only' things have always pissed me off.
Try holding a 'Caucausian only' pageant and see how far you get. The hippies will scream racism at that one, but have no problem with the black one.
Reeks of hypocricy.

As for the schools vs immigration things; both need to be sorted out.

OP, can you link to the article please?

Wook · 10-09-2007 01:11PM

Bambi wrote:

Cry me a f****ng river, and when yiz do then build a boat and paddle up it back to whatever other EU country yis snuck in from, yee shower of goldbricking chancers.

what ? 'gold bricking chancers'?

po0k · 10-09-2007 01:12PM

lolz@3rd-rate tinpot banana republic on the edge of western europe

Wook · 10-09-2007 01:15PM

DarkJager wrote:

Its time to sort out the immigration system. People can't just come into this country and expect services like education to just bow to them or their kids. This isn't racism, its just the immigrants screaming for the race card again when things don't go their way.

i dont think they want the schools to 'bow' to them, i think they just wanted to be treated fairly ? which the 'white' folks are not always doing it seems.

Some questioned why white families who had moved this year into the town had overcome the registration deadlines to get their children into schools.

Dyr · 10-09-2007 01:33PM

Wook wrote:

god, you serious...?
This country would be on their arses if it wasn't for all those foreign people serving you or taking care of you in healthcare/services.
cheap labor everywhere ! but this is not a post about racism i guess ?

Ah yes healthcare, where MSRA is rampant now that we have bargain basement foreign labour doing all the cleaning. Oh lucky, lucky us.

Oral Slang · 10-09-2007 01:48PM

This drives me mad.. Its happening to kids all over the country, not just coloured children.

My friend had a baby in May & registered her in her 2 local schools, one of which she's 60th on the waiting list, so really doubtful as to whether she'll get in when she's 5!!! Its ridiculous, but that's the situation.

The article says "Some questioned why white families who had moved this year into the town had overcome the registration deadlines to get their children into schools.", but I know plenty of people that when they have even an inkling of moving to an area in the future, they'll register their kids in the schools there, just in case, so that arguement is a load of crap.

As someone earlier said, I'd say the black families just didn't realise quite how early you have to register your children in schools. My mam runs a playschool and every year she has loads of "bumps" on her list for 3/4 years time.

humbert · 10-09-2007 01:51PM

Bambi wrote:

Ah yes healthcare, where MSRA is rampant now that we have bargain basement foreign labour doing all the cleaning. Oh lucky, lucky us.

I think that may be the dumbest thing I've ever read here.

gerky · 10-09-2007 01:56PM

humbert wrote:

I think that may be the dumbest thing I've ever read here.

Agreed

gerky · 10-09-2007 02:06PM

Why do you assume that the black family's would be to stupid to book in advance.
This isn't so much a race issue as a religious one the church has said to church run schools to give catholic family's preference which is discrimination.
And some family are feeling forced to change religion.
Most of the so called foreign nationals your talking about are Irish children as they were born here.

AARRRGH · 10-09-2007 02:08PM

You can't just arrive in Ireland and expect a school place. There are already waiting lists for schools.

This is not about race, it's about schools being overcrowded and immigrants wanting everything now.

Rob_l · 10-09-2007 02:12PM

gerky wrote:

Why do you assume that the black family's would be to stupid to book in advance.
This isn't so much a race issue as a religious one the church has said to church run schools to give catholic family's preference which is discrimination.
And some family are feeling forced to change religion.
Most of the so called foreign nationals your talking about are Irish children as they were born here.

yes and as catholic schools should they not be allowed to admit catholic student over other religions?

whats next on your list then girl schools who choose female students over male!

gerky · 10-09-2007 02:15PM

Its not the church that pays for the running of them so no they shouldn't.

AARRRGH · 10-09-2007 02:18PM

Look, if I emigrated to Senegal I would not be bitching that I can't get my kid into the local over crowded school. I would have researched this **** before I left Ireland so I knew what I was getting myself into.

Coming to Ireland without knowing what the country is like is just retarded.

Rob_l · 10-09-2007 02:19PM

gerky wrote:

Its not the church that pays for the running of them so no they shouldn't.

so who pays for them?

kevmy · 10-09-2007 02:20PM

In fairness I don't think this can be turned into an anti-Catholic or anti-church thread. For years the church has maintained many if not most of the schools in Ireland. This saves the state millions in administration cost and provides a handy little not-our-fault excuse for the Department of Education. By and large the church has done a good job in the schools and generally lets in students of any or no creed. Certainly in my school there was a good percentage of Protestant kids etc. It's only when there are too little places and you have to reject some children that this comes into play - it's unfortunate but someones going to miss out whatever way its done.

This is an infrastructural issue brought on the government by its own incompetence. They knew or should have known this was coming for at least 3 years. If they wanted to avoid the catholic issue they could have taken up the church on its offer to give over school control to the Department of Education. Still though serves people right for voting these idiots into office again.

po0k · 10-09-2007 02:23PM

The Department of Education.

Generally it is the case that the Church built schools on its land. So they own the school. The teachers are civil servants. And there aren't enough quality teachers at both Primary and Secondary levels.

blorg · 10-09-2007 02:34PM

darkman2 wrote:

Some also complained that the school system discriminated against them on religious grounds. About 98 per cent of schools are run by the Roman Catholic Church, and the law permits it to discriminate on whether or not a prospective student has a certificate confirming they were baptised into the faith.

Personally I think this is fairly shocking.

Slow Motion · 10-09-2007 02:36PM

Black V white, Religious V non religious ! Are people here wilfully stupid ? It has nothing to do with this and everything to lack of a functioning department of education and an uncaring unsupportive government, without an ounce of social foresight to have seen this issue when it was pointed out that class numbers were on the rise, regardless of where the increased number of students is coming from. Anyone who says any different IMO is just deflecting the issue from sheer idiocy or some other agenda !

AARRRGH · 10-09-2007 02:39PM

But still... does anyone not find it strange?

If I moved to [insert random country] I wouldn't feel like I am owed anything. If I discovered [insert random public service] was totally dire, I would move home or to a different country instead of waving some kind of race flag...

I'm all on for immigration and people wanting to build a better life for themselves, but you are a guest in this country, and we owe you nothing, so stop bitching and complaining.

Like, the amount of non-Irish people living here who are always telling me how **** this country is - **** off home so. No one is forcing you to live here.

Dublin denies racist problem as blacks struggle to find school places

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