What are hard shoulders for?

Gwynston · 16-08-2007 10:19AM #1

Why are there hard shoulders on the majority of N-roads? What good are they for? They don't have them on A roads in the UK.

While they're useful to allow slow vehicles to pull over (when they bother) to let others overtake, isn't it actually against the rules to do that, even for tractors?

I can't imagine that they've built hundreds and hundreds of miles of shoulder around the country just on the off-chance that someone breaks down occasionally (which is their only purpose on motorways).

A good way to improve safety at junctions with minor roads is to use the shoulder on the turn side as a left turn lane, and widen the road on the other side to allow space for a hatched-off central turning area for right turns. This is happening at a lot of junctions, but I don't see why it isn't done on every single turn off an N road with shoulders.

Roads with shoulders are also already wide enough to make converting them to the 2+1 type roads that have been tested in places like Co. Cork quite inexpensive. I heard recently that plans have been dropped to extend this type of road (where an overtaking lane alternates sides every couple of km) across the country. Does anyone know why? I thought it worked quite well, and I heard that accidents have been greatly reduced where these types of roads are used in Scandinavia.

Marcus.Aurelius · 16-08-2007 10:24AM

For breakdowns and allowing other traffic to pass you where it is safe for you to use it. Driving in it for extended periods (around a blind bend or towards entrances/junctions on your side) could get you into trouble with the Gardaí. But don't be surprised, Irish people have become so selfish, you won't see many letting other cars by, no matter how long the tailback. And it's not against the rules of the road, and the Gardaí allow it.

Henry Ford III · 16-08-2007 10:26AM

maoleary wrote:

For breakdowns and allowing other traffic to pass you where it is safe for you to use it.

I think it's illegal to pull in to facilitate overtaking these days.

RAC says....

Safety on the hard shoulder

Motorists have a key role to play in reducing death and injury, both to themselves and to those who attend them in any kind of emergency on motorways or high-speed dual carriageways.

Motorway hard shoulders are for emergency use only and you should only stop there if it is a real emergency and you have no other choice. Try to drive to a safer place off the motorway if you can, rather than stopping on the hard shoulder.
You should be properly prepared for your journey and you must not stop on the hard shoulder to:

*

Go to the toilet.
*

Use a mobile telephone.
*

Check a route or map.
*

Do anything else that can wait until you are in a safe place.

If an emergency forces you to stop, then:

*

Use the hard shoulder as a deceleration lane before coming to a halt.
*

Watch out for debris on the hard shoulder that could damage your vehicle.
*

Pull over to the left as far as you can and turn your front wheels towards the nearside verge.
*

Turn on your hazard lights.
*

Turn on sidelights when visibility is poor.

You are the best person to decide what is safest for you, but it is recommended that:

*

You and any occupants leave the vehicle via the passenger doors and move as far away from the traffic as you can.
*

You don't attempt to repair your vehicle on a hard shoulder. It is highly dangerous, particularly on the side nearest the traffic. Use a motorway telephone to get professional help.

Emergency telephones

*

When calling for help, use the motorway emergency telephones if you can. These are linked to motorway police control centres, allowing them to pinpoint your position and get help to you quickly. If you have to use a mobile phone then be particularly careful to stay away from the traffic.
*

When walking along the hard shoulder to or from the telephone, keep as far away from the traffic as possible, and keep in mind the danger that it poses.
*

Remember that motorway telephones are never more than one mile apart. A blue and white marker post is placed at every 100 metres, with an arrow to point you in the direction of the nearest phone.

Waiting for assistance

*

When you return to your vehicle the safest place for you and any passengers to wait for help to arrive is behind the crash barrier if there is one, or near your vehicle on the embankment or adjacent land. Move up the bank or verge as far as possible keeping an eye on the oncoming traffic.
*

If it is not possible to wait in this manner or you feel threatened, then return to your vehicle and wait in the front passenger seat with doors locked, keeping a watch on the oncoming traffic. When you feel it is safe to do so, return to the safe place near your vehicle. There is a perception that a 'lone female' is at risk of being attacked on a motorway hard shoulder. Research shows that the risk of being hit by another vehicle is much greater.
*

Once your vehicle is repaired, return to the motorway by using the hard shoulder as an acceleration lane, merging with the traffic in lane one when you have reached a similar speed and there is an appropriate gap.

Information from SURVIVE (Safe Use of Roadside Verges In Vehicle Emergencies) Group. Members include RAC, ACPO, Institution of Civil Engineers, SMMT and AA.
If you are disabled

If you have a disability which prevents you from following the above advice you should:

*

Stay in your vehicle.
*

Switch on your hazard warning lights.
*

At the time of placing your emergency call, inform the call handler of your particular circumstances and requirements.

Marcus.Aurelius · 16-08-2007 10:30AM

Henry Ford III wrote:

I think it's illegal to pull in to facilitate overtaking these days.

RAC says....

Safety on the hard shoulder

Motorists have a key role to play in reducing death and injury, both to themselves and to those who attend them in any kind of emergency on motorways or high-speed dual carriageways.

Motorway hard shoulders are for emergency use only and you should only stop there if it is a real emergency and you have no other choice. Try to drive to a safer place off the motorway if you can, rather than stopping on the hard shoulder.
You should be properly prepared for your journey and you must not stop on the hard shoulder to:

*

Go to the toilet.
*

Use a mobile telephone.
*

Check a route or map.
*

Do anything else that can wait until you are in a safe place.

If an emergency forces you to stop, then:

*

Use the hard shoulder as a deceleration lane before coming to a halt.
*

Watch out for debris on the hard shoulder that could damage your vehicle.
*

Pull over to the left as far as you can and turn your front wheels towards the nearside verge.
*

Turn on your hazard lights.
*

Turn on sidelights when visibility is poor.

You are the best person to decide what is safest for you, but it is recommended that:

*

You and any occupants leave the vehicle via the passenger doors and move as far away from the traffic as you can.
*

You don't attempt to repair your vehicle on a hard shoulder. It is highly dangerous, particularly on the side nearest the traffic. Use a motorway telephone to get professional help.

Emergency telephones

*

When calling for help, use the motorway emergency telephones if you can. These are linked to motorway police control centres, allowing them to pinpoint your position and get help to you quickly. If you have to use a mobile phone then be particularly careful to stay away from the traffic.
*

When walking along the hard shoulder to or from the telephone, keep as far away from the traffic as possible, and keep in mind the danger that it poses.
*

Remember that motorway telephones are never more than one mile apart. A blue and white marker post is placed at every 100 metres, with an arrow to point you in the direction of the nearest phone.

Waiting for assistance

*

When you return to your vehicle the safest place for you and any passengers to wait for help to arrive is behind the crash barrier if there is one, or near your vehicle on the embankment or adjacent land. Move up the bank or verge as far as possible keeping an eye on the oncoming traffic.
*

If it is not possible to wait in this manner or you feel threatened, then return to your vehicle and wait in the front passenger seat with doors locked, keeping a watch on the oncoming traffic. When you feel it is safe to do so, return to the safe place near your vehicle. There is a perception that a 'lone female' is at risk of being attacked on a motorway hard shoulder. Research shows that the risk of being hit by another vehicle is much greater.
*

Once your vehicle is repaired, return to the motorway by using the hard shoulder as an acceleration lane, merging with the traffic in lane one when you have reached a similar speed and there is an appropriate gap.

Information from SURVIVE (Safe Use of Roadside Verges In Vehicle Emergencies) Group. Members include RAC, ACPO, Institution of Civil Engineers, SMMT and AA.
If you are disabled

If you have a disability which prevents you from following the above advice you should:

*

Stay in your vehicle.
*

Switch on your hazard warning lights.
*

At the time of placing your emergency call, inform the call handler of your particular circumstances and requirements.

That's motorways, the OP asked about N roads. I never said anything about yielding on motorways.

Gwynston · 16-08-2007 10:38AM

maoleary wrote:

Irish people have become so selfish, you won't see many letting other cars by, no matter how long the tailback. And it's not against the rules of the road, and the Gardaí allow it.

Yeah, I seem to remember that in some US states there is a rule that if you are driving below the speed limit and end up with a tail of more than 3 cars behind you, you're obliged to pull over and let them past.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

But in reality, aren't the hundreds of miles of shoulder on the nation's N roads a waste of space?

Stephen · 16-08-2007 10:47AM

Around here most of the N-roads don't have any hard shoulder at all until you approach a town or something. Which is infuriating as there's so much farm traffic about.

Marcus.Aurelius · 16-08-2007 11:10AM

Gwynston wrote:

Yeah, I seem to remember that in some US states there is a rule that if you are driving below the speed limit and end up with a tail of more than 3 cars behind you, you're obliged to pull over and let them past.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

But in reality, aren't the hundreds of miles of shoulder on the nation's N roads a waste of space?

I would imagine it would have been far more intelligent to just make dual carraigeways instead. We are incredibly stupid on this island, we have no backbone to elect a different government, even though the present one is awful. We have no future-proof thinking at all.

In Australia, they built the Sydney Harbour Bridge with so many lanes, so that it would be future-proof. And all these years later, it's still the best stretch of road in Sydney. What's wrong with us?

Henry Ford III · 16-08-2007 11:49AM

maoleary wrote:

That's motorways, the OP asked about N roads. I never said anything about yielding on motorways.

I know. The priciple is identical however. Use for breakdowns and emergencies only.

blorg · 16-08-2007 11:51AM

They certainly assist walkers or cyclists. This is _not_ their primary purpose but it sure is useful, I wouldn't want to be cycling on a busy N road out in the traffic lane if I can avoid it.

Gregor Samsa · 16-08-2007 12:02PM

Henry Ford III wrote:

I know. The principle is identical however. Use for breakdowns and emergencies only.

The principle is not the same. There's no law that states that the hard shoulder is for breakdowns and emergencies only on anything other than a Motorway. Pedestrians can legally use the HS on an N road, but not on a Motorway. You can legally pull in to make a phone call on a non-motorway HS.

On Motorways, the hard shoulder is marked by a continuous yellow line. On all other roads, it is a broken yellow line (except near to junctions where there often a solid yellow line - where it should be used for emergency use only). This is to signify the difference between a motorway hard shoulder and a non-motorway one.

el tel · 16-08-2007 12:04PM

Gwynston wrote:

Why are there hard shoulders on the majority of N-roads? What good are they for? They don't have them on A roads in the UK.

A-roads in the UK can and do have hard shoulders.

(A-roads can vary from a single-track roads to a grade-separated motorways or even eight lane dual carriageways).

Gran Hermano · 16-08-2007 12:10PM

Everyone knows that the hardshoulder is used for undertaking when
the fast-lane is busy

(JOKE!

)

peasant · 16-08-2007 12:11PM

Gwynston wrote:

But in reality, aren't the hundreds of miles of shoulder on the nation's N roads a waste of space?

God no ...they aren't useless ...by no means.

Don't they enable some old dear to drive half way on them, straddling the yellow line at 40 km/h while some boyracer undertakes her to the left because he couldn't get past the two cars that were already overtaking her to her right because the oncoming traffic was two abreast as well?:D

No ...they can't get roads right in this country ...they're either so narrow that two trucks can hardly pass each other, or so wide that they are an invitation to people to drive three abreast, all overtaking each other.

Alun · 16-08-2007 12:15PM

el tel wrote:

A-roads in the UK can and do have hard shoulders.

But on the kinds of A-roads we're talking about here, i.e. single carriageway N-road equivalents, they're simply not there, at least not like the huge ones we have here, and even on major dual carriageways they're fairly rare. There might be a small ribbon of tarmac between the road edge markings and the grass, but it won't generally be more than a metre or so, just enough to be able to pull over a bit so as not to obstruct the whole carriageway in the case of a breakdown.

Alun · 16-08-2007 12:19PM

peasant wrote:

No ...they can't get roads right in this country ...they're either so narrow that two trucks can hardly pass each other, or so wide that they are an invitation to people to drive three abreast, all overtaking each other.

Absolutely .. I've actually seen a situation on one of these "if there's enough room to build this, why didn't they build a DC" type roads, where there 5, yes 5 cars involved in an overtaking manoeuvre, 3 in one direction and two in the other! Needless to say I held well back while all this (luckily!) sorted itself out.

Personally, I'd much rather they just built a decent width road without hard shoulders, and make it twice as long than some of these monstrosities.

Vegeta · 16-08-2007 12:22PM

phutyle wrote:

The principle is not the same. There's no law that states that the hard shoulder is for breakdowns and emergencies only on anything other than a Motorway. Pedestrians can legally use the HS on an N road, but not on a Motorway. You can legally pull in to make a phone call on a non-motorway HS.

On Motorways, the hard shoulder is marked by a continuous yellow line. On all other roads, it is a broken yellow line (except near to junctions where there often a solid yellow line - where it should be used for emergency use only). This is to signify the difference between a motorway hard shoulder and a non-motorway one.

This guy is on the money

Gwynston · 16-08-2007 12:31PM

Alun wrote:

Personally, I'd much rather they just built a decent width road without hard shoulders, and make it twice as long than some of these monstrosities.

Quite.
I guess my point is that the shoulders are a waste of effort and tarmac. There are plenty of dangerous N roads with no shoulder and these tend to be old windy, narrow roads which are not easily upgradeable.

But the ones with shoulders tend to be newer, and were built properly with sufficient underlying bedding and layers so that they don't become uneven within a few years or the surface doesn't break up and require bi-annual scatterings of stone chips (don't get me started on that one....)

My point is that the time and effort taken to make these better roads is all well and good, but why so wide? They might as well go a little wider and be duel carriageways, or else just make them like the good quality A roads without shoulders in the UK. They wouldn't need to be so wide which would save a lot of time and tarmac which could be used elsewhere.

jellybean520 · 16-08-2007 02:35PM

Don't start me on Irish roads, design and forward planning (i.e. none). For such a so-called booming economy, the roads infrastructure is more like third world in 60%+ of the country. Why is it always a case of playing catch-up and never actually catching up? Because when a project is finished, it's already below capacity requirements.

A fundamental requirement since the 60's/70's has been the provision of motorways linking all major cities. Of course all the paddies were in the UK building British motorways at this time. Had they embarked on such a project back then, I strongly believe the recession of the 80's might have been averted and the Celtic Tiger we experienced recently would have been exponentially more spectacular.

Dual carriageways or motorways are essential with the current (and growing)levels of traffic. The 2+1 scenario can be dangerous because in a congested situation there are constantly merging lanes and the frustration associated with that.....and in quieter times you'll have high-speed merging which is also dangerous.

Perhaps it is a sinister strategy - if we don't go with safer more efficient motorways, then road carnage remains high and consequently there will always be a steady supply of organ donors?!

:mad:

Henry Ford III · 16-08-2007 03:23PM

phutyle wrote:

The principle is not the same. There's no law that states that the hard shoulder is for breakdowns and emergencies only on anything other than a Motorway. Pedestrians can legally use the HS on an N road, but not on a Motorway. You can legally pull in to make a phone call on a non-motorway HS.

On Motorways, the hard shoulder is marked by a continuous yellow line. On all other roads, it is a broken yellow line (except near to junctions where there often a solid yellow line - where it should be used for emergency use only). This is to signify the difference between a motorway hard shoulder and a non-motorway one.

I never said there was a law........bla bla.....I never mentioned road markings.

The principle is the same.

Orion · 16-08-2007 03:35PM

Gran Hermano wrote:

Everyone knows that the hardshoulder is used for undertaking when the fast-lane is busy

Actually it can be used for overtaking too. As happened to me near Portrush one day - I was overtaking and another car overtook me in the hard shoulder on the far side! :eek:

Gwynston · 16-08-2007 04:05PM

Macros42 wrote:

Actually it can be used for overtaking too. As happened to me near Portrush one day - I was overtaking and another car overtook me in the hard shoulder on the far side! :eek:

Actually, I confess to doing this myself once, but I was forced into it to avoid an accident.

It was on a very wide stretch of the N6 near Galway with a km of clear road ahead. I went to pass a transit and also the slow car ahead of it when the transit pulled out without looking to also pass and practically drove me off the road. :eek: I was almost alongside and accelerating hard, so in a split second decided the best way to avoid an accident was to edge over onto the right-hand shoulder and complete the overtaking maneuver.

Not something I'd do by choice, but I guess the shoulder can to my assitance in this case....!

Gregor Samsa · 16-08-2007 04:05PM

Henry Ford III wrote:

I never said there was a law........bla bla.....I never mentioned road markings.

The principle is the same.

My mentioning of the law, and the road marking, was to demonstrate that the principle i.e. the intended function of the hard shoulder, differs in regards to the status of the road (motorway or not motorway).

you said

Henry Ford III wrote:

I think it's illegal to pull in to facilitate overtaking these days.

and then quoted an irrelevant passage about motorway hard shoulders from the RAC.

The OP was talking about N roads - where you can use them for pulling in, to let people pass, stopping, reading a map, using the phone, whatever (assuming it's safe to do so).

You claimed that the principle of both was "Use for breakdowns and emergencies only". That is patently not the case for non-motorway hard shoulders. So how can the principle be the same when the intended use is different?

Henry Ford III · 16-08-2007 04:14PM

No interest in arguing here.

The principle of a hard shoulder on any road is for uise in an emergency or breakdown.

The detail, as you've rightly pointed out, differs between National routes and motorways.

GTC · 16-08-2007 04:31PM

Henry Ford III wrote:

I know. The priciple is identical however. Use for breakdowns and emergencies only.

Wrong. Hard Shoulder use on Motorways is prohibited because of upcoming exits. Using the hard shoulder to allow traffic to pass on single lane roads is never prosecuted when done correctly.

GTC, Garda Traffic Corps

Henry Ford III · 16-08-2007 04:55PM

GTC wrote:

Wrong. Hard Shoulder use on Motorways is prohibited because of upcoming exits. Using the hard shoulder to allow traffic to pass on single lane roads is never prosecuted when done correctly.

GTC, Garda Traffic Corps

I've absolutely no idea what you mean above. Honestly.

Are you suggesting that a motorway breakdown is illegal somehow?

Gwynston · 16-08-2007 05:01PM

Henry Ford III wrote:

I've absolutely no idea what you mean above. Honestly.

Are you suggesting that a motorway breakdown is illegal somehow?

No, he's saying you can't use hard shoulders on motorways the same way you can on N roads. It's implicit that on motorways they're for emergencies and breakdowns.

Come on get a grip - it's not that hard.
The same restrictions don't exist for non-motorway shoulders. They can be used by pedestrians, cyclists, for answering your mobile, for pulling over to let others past etc. etc.

Can't you just admit you were wrong to say the principle is the same for both?
They're not! End of.... :rolleyes:

Henry Ford III · 16-08-2007 05:05PM

I do indeed fully understand & appreciate the differences in detail

p.s. I seldom admit that I'm wrong, even when I'm clearly wrong;)

Gwynston · 16-08-2007 05:08PM

Henry Ford III wrote:

p.s. I seldom admit that I'm wrong, even when I'm clearly wrong;)

OK, let's just call it quits then!

Henry Ford III · 16-08-2007 05:12PM

Done Gwynston

mike65 · 16-08-2007 06:03PM

Jebus every distance driver knows the HS is for weary reps to have 30 mins nearly being killed as they doze.

Seriously though the number of mid-range cars with someone sat slumped at the wheel or with a phone to thier ear is silly. Whatsmore they invariably pull in just short of a wide verge or farm gate where they'd be far safer.

Mike.

What are hard shoulders for?

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